Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[Markfw]

The 5950x has similar power consumption to the 5800x in Cinebench because it's all core boost is substantially lower; 3.9ghz vs 4.5ghz for the 5800x at stock. Zen 3's operating sweet spot in terms of performance per watt is the mid to upper 3ghz range.

The 13900K on the other hand doubled the efficiency cores, significantly increased the core frequencies, expanded the L2 and L3 cache for both performance and efficiency cores without a substantial increase in the power draw, which to me is impressive.

The only problem with comparisons like this, is that Zen 4 will be out before Raptor lake, and it also has a lot of improvements. Unfortunately there are very few performance leaks of Zen 4 to compare to.

 

[pakotlar]

That's kind of eww. We'll know more once we get a look at the cache config at the lower-end 13000-series chips, but if Raptor Lake only shows up as 13900k then . . . meh.

That is not what the leaks show. Everything 13600K and above is Raptor Cove

 

[Carfax83]

The only problem with comparisons like this, is that Zen 4 will be out before Raptor lake, and it also has a lot of improvements. Unfortunately there are very few performance leaks of Zen 4 to compare to.

Zen 4 is also on a new node. I have no doubt that Zen 4 will undoubtedly offer excellent performance per watt courtesy of TSMC 5nm, unlike Intel which must make due with Intel 7. We don't even know whether it's a further refined version of Intel 7 from what was shipped with Alder Lake.

Honestly, while Intel definitely deserved criticism for inflating the 12900K's TDP just to compete with the 5950x in heavy multithreaded workloads, I honestly believe that Intel 7 is superior to TSMC's 7nm. When you consider the insane clock speeds that Intel is hitting, the power draw is actually quite reasonable.

 

[coercitiv]

I honestly believe that Intel 7 is superior to TSMC's 7nm. When you consider the insane clock speeds that Intel is hitting, the power draw is actually quite reasonable.

Intel 7 as seen with Alder Lake is superior in terms of dynamic headroom, but falls behind on power consumption at low to medium clocks. There's no free lunch.

Also, keep in mind how we got here. The Intel 7 you're seeing today is the backup plan.

 

[SteinFG]

That is not what the leaks show. Everything 13600K and above is Raptor Cove

Yeah it's a little unintuitive
The full product stack on lga 1700 motherboards will look like this

name	die used	cores	L3 cache
i9 13900K / 13900	new RPL 8+16	8P + 16E	36MB
i7 13700K / 13700	new RPL 8+16	8P + 8E	30MB
i9 12900K / 12900	old ADL 8+8	8P + 8E	30MB
i7 12700K / 12700	old ADL 8+8	8P + 4E	25MB
i5 13600K	new RPL 8+16	6P + 8E	24MB
i5 13600 / 13500	old ADL 8+8	6P + 8E	24MB
i5 13400 / 12600K	old ADL 8+8	6P + 4E	20MB
i5 12600 / 12500 / 12400	old ADL 6+0	6P + 0E	18MB
i3 13100 / 12100	old ADL 6+0	4P + 0E	12MB

so new i3 is a simple refresh; i5 price range gets stretched even more; new i7 and i9 will slot above current i7 and i9

 

[DrMrLordX]

That is not what the leaks show. Everything 13600K and above is Raptor Cove

So Raptor Lake gets 5 SKUs instead of 2. Not as terrible, but still, why keep pimping the older silicon?

 

[jpiniero]

So Raptor Lake gets 5 SKUs instead of 2. Not as terrible, but still, why keep pimping the older silicon?

The Raptor Lake die is 25% bigger than the 8+8 Alder Lake one. It is strange though, since a 6+0 Raptor Lake die would be about the size of the 8+8 Alder maybe? OEMs preferred the marketing of the small cores?

 

[maddie]

The Raptor Lake die is 25% bigger than the 8+8 Alder Lake one. It is strange though, since a 6+0 Raptor Lake die would be about the size of the 8+8 Alder maybe? OEMs preferred the marketing of the small cores?

What is this? As I understand it, the % increase is for the 13900 with the additional 8 cores being most of it..

 

[jpiniero]

What is this? As I understand it, the % increase is for the 13900 with the additional 8 cores being most of it..

I was thinking about the extra L2 cache among other things. But you might be right in that a 6+0 Raptor would still be smaller.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The Raptor Lake die is 25% bigger than the 8+8 Alder Lake one. It is strange though, since a 6+0 Raptor Lake die would be about the size of the 8+8 Alder maybe? OEMs preferred the marketing of the small cores?

There should be enough core upgrades and other bugfixes that Intel would want their entire lineup updated, though. AMD has done some silly stuff in the mobile space that's similar (see: 5xxx series and Cezanne/Renoir).

 

[igor_kavinski]

AMD has done some silly stuff in the mobile space that's similar (see: 5xxx series and Cezanne/Renoir).

I wouldn't use that word for what they do. The correct word is DECEPTION. A series should be based on the same architecture. In 5000 series, you have to know that odd number is Zen 2 and even number is Zen 3. Most users wouldn't be aware of this and suppose if they have a choice between 5500U and 5600U and buy the former due to lower price, later on they will be angry when they find out that 5600U was the better buy.

 

[igor_kavinski]

There should be enough core upgrades and other bugfixes that Intel would want their entire lineup updated, though.

Maybe AMD marketing gave them that idea.

 

[dark zero]

There should be enough core upgrades and other bugfixes that Intel would want their entire lineup updated, though. AMD has done some silly stuff in the mobile space that's similar (see: 5xxx series and Cezanne/Renoir).

Don't forget Mendocino. That is far worse.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Don't forget Mendocino. That is far worse.

Maybe Intel should one up AMD by doing a P4 7nm shrink running at 10 GHz and call it 13999KX. Should be a fun little project for them. They don't have anything of note in desktop in 2023.

 

[jpiniero]

There should be enough core upgrades and other bugfixes that Intel would want their entire lineup updated, though.

It would also save Intel the effort in validating a theoretical small Raptor Lake die too.

 

[coercitiv]

The correct word is DECEPTION.

If we do get Alder Lake 6+8 die for i5 13500 at $220-240, you better do the smart thing which is not complain, buy and run. As much as I criticize freE cores for the flagship Intel parts, getting 6P+8E on their value chips is amazing value.

Intel is literally throwing US taxpayer money at you and all you can do is complain the bills are not the expected denomination.

 

[jpiniero]

If we do get Alder Lake 6+8 die for i5 13500 at $220-240

Better wait until we find out the pricing. Because I expect Raptor Lake to be a lot more expensive and the locked i5's might be much higher too to fill the gap.

 

[coercitiv]

Because I expect Raptor Lake to be a lot more expensive

More expensive than +20%?

The 5700X is $250 on Amazon right now, and it will go even lower after the Zen 4 launch. If you think Intel is saving some bucks by skipping the small Raptor Lake die, wait until you see just how competitive AMD can get with a 80mm2 die on a cheaper node.

 

[LightningZ71]

The IO die is not free. Shipping it to final assembly is not free. Packaging the whole thing is not free. Validating three to four individual parts is not free.

Monolithic is a pain from a yields perspective, but MCM has its own problems. The only advantage is optimizing leading edge node usage.

 

[jpiniero]

More expensive than +20%?

It's possible. I should point out the the bigger Alder Lake die is 30% bigger than the smaller one too. Those small cores could be very expensive.

The 5700X is $250 on Amazon right now, and it will go even lower after the Zen 4 launch. If you think Intel is saving some bucks by skipping the small Raptor Lake die, wait until you see just how competitive AMD can get with a 80mm2 die on a cheaper node.

Have you seen Rembrandt laptop prices?

 

[jpiniero]

Should add that if this ends up being accurate, the Raptor Lake desktop volume is going to be super low. Depending on the HX SKUs it could be even lower than Rocket Lake. We'll have to see if there's going to be a 2+8 Raptor Lake laptop die too.

 

[igor_kavinski]

If we do get Alder Lake 6+8 die for i5 13500 at $220-240, you better do the smart thing which is not complain, buy and run.

My complaint was more about AMD than Intel. ADL/RPL is like Zen3/Zen3+. It's not as bad as what AMD is doing. I don't get AMD's messed up naming scheme. They put Zen 2 and 3 together in 5000 series but make minor tweaks to Zen 3+ and call it 6000 series. Then they go ahead and put Zen 2 under 7000 series (Mendocino), making it co-exist with Zen 4! Whoever is calling the shots on these things at AMD, they know full well what they are doing and it is deception.

 

[coercitiv]

Those small cores could be very expensive.

We'll see soon enough.

My complaint was more about AMD than Intel. [...] I don't get AMD's messed up naming scheme.

Oh, so you just felt compelled to discuss AMD naming schemes in the Intel Raptor Lake thread. Don't mind me then, carry on.

 

[FangBLade]

How good yields are with these big/little design? It is still monolithic design right? 8 big cores and 8+ little, die size is huge, but Intel have own fabs so i guess it isn't that terrible.

 

[jpiniero]

My complaint was more about AMD than Intel. ADL/RPL is like Zen3/Zen3+. It's not as bad as what AMD is doing. I don't get AMD's messed up naming scheme. They put Zen 2 and 3 together in 5000 series but make minor tweaks to Zen 3+ and call it 6000 series.

OEMs do like selling the "newest generation" products. But for whatever reason if the bulk of the volume is going to be the previous generation product, the OEMs would appreciate having an shiny newer generation name associated with it.