Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[Zucker2k]

At the time the most potent mainstream CPU from Intel was the 7700K IIRC, 6C/12T Coffee Lake was released way later and became the new Intel reference...

Exactly! So how's it a problem now? Each company is going to explore paths to superiority. They may do it with cores, clocks, or power, or a combination of all the above. It shouldn't be a problem now only because for the first time, Intel is enjoying the core count advantage.

 

[Abwx]

Exactly! So how's it a problem now? Each company is going to explore paths to superiority. They may do it with cores, clocks, or power, or a combination of all the above. It shouldn't be a problem now only because for the first time, Intel is enjoying the core advantage.

Mainstream CPUs comparison can be made according to pricings, wich is indeed the parameter that matter for most of us as consumers.

But since we like technology it s somewhat interesting to compare equivalent configurations, that is, count two e-cores as being about equivalent in MT as a SMTed single big core.

For instance a 8 + 8 ADL is comparable to a 12C 5900X/7900X and methink that Intel themselves think about it this way, it s just that they had the idea to hugely increase TDP to get a 12900K being close to a 5950X for MT, but a real contender for the latter is rather the 13900K since 8 + 16 is comparable to 16 big cores.

 

[Markfw]

Frankly, Alder Lake is so far ahead of Zen 3 that Zen 4 is unlikely to do anything more than catch up to that 2021 chip.

This is just flat WRONG. While Alder lake may have its strengths, they trade blows, except perf/watt, Then Zen 3 wins by a mile.

 

[Thunder 57]

As has been argued countless times, the main value of HEDT is not just cores but connectivity, memory bandwidth, and robustness of the platform. So, comparing a desktop cpu against an HEDT cpu is not exactly reasonable because they belong to different tiers and while the 1800x has the value advantage, the 6900k had other advantages.
The 1800x was pitted against the 7700x with half the number of cores, just as AMD had no problem pitting the 5950x against the 10900k and 11900k.

Right, so just three months later Intel released the 7820X as a price cut for $599, not far off from the 1800X. How nice of them. Oh, and AMD launched their HEDT which included the 1900X with quad channel and many more PCIe lanes than the 7820X that same year for the same $599. Nice try.

Exactly! So how's it a problem now? Each company is going to explore paths to superiority. They may do it with cores, clocks, or power, or a combination of all the above. It shouldn't be a problem now only because for the first time, Intel is enjoying the core count advantage.

It was only a problem of Intel enjoying a core advantage because from 2009-2017 Intel only offered quad cores as mainstream. If you wanted a core advantage you had to shut up and eat it. This crap cost Intel a lot of good will. They still segment AVX. They still segment E-cores. They should learn from past mistakes.

This has gone far off topic though IMHO.

 

[AtenRa]

Frankly, Alder Lake is so far ahead of Zen 3 that Zen 4 is unlikely to do anything more than catch up to that 2021 chip.

This is *especially* true for anyone doing content creation \ media on their computer using the most common professional grade applications, coders, photographers, and so on.

Everyone here talks about games it seems, but Alder Lake just annihilates Zen 3 on these kind of apps. IT's not even close. So a little 15% bump on Zen 4 won't even catch Alder Lake and we already know that Raptor is going to be able to throw more cores at these kinds of apps. That's to say nothing of cache, turbo, and microcode performance improvements.

So while I expect to see plenty of rah rah cheerleading and overtly bias configs on AMD rigs at these review sites, objective reviews (or an objective look at the data in the reviews) will show Raptor maintaining a comfortable performance lead in single and light threaded tasks (including games) while significantly extending its lead in productivity apps.

Unless you plan to run out and spend $800+ on a 13900K / 7950X, this is what matters, and Zen 4 would have to be significantly different to provide any value whatsoever at the 7600X/7700X level vs even Alder Lake. And it isn't going to be much different.

Not really, If you take each price tier ZEN 3 and AlderLake are very close.

Here latest Ryzen 5700X at $300 vs AL Core i5 12600K

AMD Ryzen 7 5700X Review - Finally an Affordable 8-Core

With the Ryzen 7 5700X, AMD is finally offering a more affordable 8-core processor. In our review, we take a close look at how this $265 CPU performs against the Ryzen 7 5800X, and also compare it to Intel's Alder Lake lineup, including the i5-12600K and i7-12700K.

www.techpowerup.com

Not to mention that Ryzen 5700X is way more efficient in Multithreading vs 12600K.


RaptorLake 13600K will be very close with ZEN 4 7700X ,but again the Ryzen will be the perf/watt king.

 

[moinmoin]

They still segment AVX. They still segment E-cores.

Most importantly and most often overlooked they still segment cache sizes.

 

[shady28]

This is just flat WRONG. While Alder lake may have its strengths, they trade blows, except perf/watt, Then Zen 3 wins by a mile.

The only thing Zen 3 beats Alder Lake at is rendering.

I wonder how many people reading this forum have drawn a wire frame image and created their own render outside of running benchmarks.

I bet not too many. Like maybe 2 or 3. Once.

And yet these 'professional' review sites have 30-50% of their 'application' benchmarks loaded with multiple ray trace renderers.

It's like I have said before in this thread, if individuals look at what they do with their PC (web, game, office, maybe compilers) Alder Lake is clearly miles ahead of Zen 3.

I know you personally have a beef with Intel which you've spoken of on this forum, and for that reason I normally don't even see your posts. With that kind of overt bias (hatred even) against a brand, I don't see you having anything of value to add.

 

[shady28]

Not really, If you take each price tier ZEN 3 and AlderLake are very close.

<snip>

So i bought my 10850K back in Jan 2021 for $309.

At that time 5600X was $300 and 5800X was $450.

By your logic, gen 10 was superior to Zen 3 because the price was better for a better performing chip. And a 10850K should have been compared to a 5600X because it was more or less the same price.

I'll go back to my original statement, AMD had to lower its prices because it had an inferior product compared to Alder Lake. This is self-evident.

The 5600X is currently competing in price with an 12400KF, multiple SKUs down from where it would normally compete.

 

[Thunder 57]

I know you personally have a beef with Intel which you've spoken of on this forum, and for that reason I normally don't even see your posts. With that kind of overt bias (hatred even) against a brand, I don't see you having anything of value to add.

Hahaha, that's hilarious. You want to think you are open minded. But then you shut down open debate by blocking users with different opinions and live in an echo chamber. I hope you enjoy it there.

 

[Markfw]

The only thing Zen 3 beats Alder Lake at is rendering.

I wonder how many people reading this forum have drawn a wire frame image and created their own render outside of running benchmarks.

I bet not too many. Like maybe 2 or 3. Once.

And yet these 'professional' review sites have 30-50% of their 'application' benchmarks loaded with multiple ray trace renderers.

It's like I have said before in this thread, if individuals look at what they do with their PC (web, game, office, maybe compilers) Alder Lake is clearly miles ahead of Zen 3.

I know you personally have a beef with Intel which you've spoken of on this forum, and for that reason I normally don't even see your posts. With that kind of overt bias (hatred even) against a brand, I don't see you having anything of value to add.

So, I am wrong and without value in my pinion, and all the reviewers are also biased. Oh, and you think everyone does either games or browses the web ? There are SO many more uses out there, one of which is hardly mentioned that I do, DC.

Speaking of bias, you wreak of it.

 

[Thunder 57]

So i bought my 10850K back in Jan 2021 for $309.

At that time 5600X was $300 and 5800X was $450.

By your logic, gen 10 was superior to Zen 3 because the price was better for a better performing chip. And a 10850K should have been compared to a 5600X because it was more or less the same price.

I'll go back to my original statement, AMD had to lower its prices because it had an inferior product compared to Alder Lake. This is self-evident.

The 5600X is currently competing in price with an 12400KF, multiple SKUs down from where it would normally compete.

Prices tend to follow supply and demand. AMD was selling everything they could make. Alder Lake did well for itself but once supply caught up AMD was able to lower prices to compete with Alder Lake. Blame the consoles if anything for stealing 7nm.

A 12400f is actually a great CPU. BTW there is no 12400kf. It is priced well and is the natural competitor to the 5600X. Both are 6C/12T. But you seem to think the 5600X should compete with the 12600k. It doesn't do as well there, so it is "inferior".

Have fun in that echo chamber.

 

[Abwx]

The only thing Zen 3 beats Alder Lake at is rendering.

But Cinebench is about rendering, isnt it..?.

Unfortunately there s not a lot of MT test at Computerbase, but i would hardly brand 7ZIP, Digicortex or Handbrake as renderings...

Intel Core i9-12900K, i7-12700K & i5-12600K im Test: Benchmarks in Anwendungen

Intel Alder Lake im Test: Benchmarks in Anwendungen / Ein rekordverdächtiger Testumfang / Windows 10 vs. Windows 11

www.computerbase.de

 

[coercitiv]

The 5600X is currently competing in price with an 12400KF

Wonderful CPU the 12400KF.

So, can you give us a rough estimate of how much faster Raptor Lake or Alder Lake will be over Zen 4? Surely you did some rough math before posting your conclusion on Alder Lake besting Zen 4.

 

[Thunder 57]

By the way, even Intel can't put a great spin on Raptor Lake.

"Up to double digit performance boost". Largely because of clocks I'd gather. "Enhanced overclocking features". Does that mean the abaility to turn it up to 350W?

With all those extra cores and threads it should do great, right? Ever hear of Amdahl's Law?

 

[ondma]

Exactly! So how's it a problem now? Each company is going to explore paths to superiority. They may do it with cores, clocks, or power, or a combination of all the above. It shouldn't be a problem now only because for the first time, Intel is enjoying the core count advantage.

Yea, when AMD offered more cores for the money, that was a big advantage. The AMD camp had no problem comparing an AMD chip to an intel one with less cores. Suddenly, now, that is an unfair comparison since intel offers more cores at certain price points.

 

[shady28]

Prices tend to follow supply and demand. AMD was selling everything they could make. Alder Lake did well for itself but once supply caught up AMD was able to lower prices to compete with Alder Lake. Blame the consoles if anything for stealing 7nm.

A 12400f is actually a great CPU. BTW there is no 12400kf. It is priced well and is the natural competitor to the 5600X. Both are 6C/12T. But you seem to think the 5600X should compete with the 12600k. It doesn't do as well there, so it is "inferior".

Have fun in that echo chamber.

Prices always follow a price/performance curve.

If that is the standard you can discard every review prior to the last price change.

See my example of the 10850K vs 5600X above. The 10850K crushes the 5600X at almost every use case, yet cost the same at the time.

Wonderful CPU the 12400KF.

So, can you give us a rough estimate of how much faster Raptor Lake or Alder Lake will be over Zen 4? Surely you did some rough math before posting your conclusion on Alder Lake besting Zen 4.

Nice sarcastic response, also putting words in my mouth like markfw did.

You go back and quote what I actually said, then we can talk.

 

[Thunder 57]

Prices always follow a price/performance curve.

If that is the standard you can discard every review prior to the last price change.

See my example of the 10850K vs 5600X above. The 10850K crushes the 5600X at almost every use case, yet cost the same at the time.



Nice sarcastic response, also putting words in my mouth like markfw did.

You go back and quote what I actually said, then we can talk.

For the record:

Frankly, Alder Lake is so far ahead of Zen 3 that Zen 4 is unlikely to do anything more than catch up to that 2021 chip.

This is *especially* true for anyone doing content creation \ media on their computer using the most common professional grade applications, coders, photographers, and so on.

Everyone here talks about games it seems, but Alder Lake just annihilates Zen 3 on these kind of apps. IT's not even close. So a little 15% bump on Zen 4 won't even catch Alder Lake and we already know that Raptor is going to be able to throw more cores at these kinds of apps. That's to say nothing of cache, turbo, and microcode performance improvements.

So while I expect to see plenty of rah rah cheerleading and overtly bias configs on AMD rigs at these review sites, objective reviews (or an objective look at the data in the reviews) will show Raptor maintaining a comfortable performance lead in single and light threaded tasks (including games) while significantly extending its lead in productivity apps.

Unless you plan to run out and spend $800+ on a 13900K / 7950X, this is what matters, and Zen 4 would have to be significantly different to provide any value whatsoever at the 7600X/7700X level vs even Alder Lake. And it isn't going to be much different.

That is what you said. Or have do you suffer from amnesia?

Also, I would hope a 10C at 265W could beat a 6C at 76W. Even there it only wins in anything heavily threaded. The 5600X was more in demand. Remember back when Intel fans used to say single threaded performance was king? Than suddenly AMD had it so no, now it must be multithreaded performance. I'll ask again, do you edit the scoring system for Userbenchmark?

 

[coercitiv]

also putting words in my mouth like markfw did.

You go back and quote what I actually said, then we can talk.

What words did I put in your mouth? I took your exact words seriously:

Alder Lake just annihilates Zen 3 on these kind of apps. IT's not even close. So a little 15% bump on Zen 4 won't even catch Alder Lake and we already know that Raptor is going to be able to throw more cores at these kinds of apps.

So let me ask again with explicit language for the workloads where you have the highest confidence level: how much faster do you think Alder Lake (or Raptor Lake) will be over Zen 4 in media editing and compiling benchmarks?

 

[shady28]

But Cinebench is about rendering, isnt it..?.

Unfortunately there s not a lot of MT test at Computerbase, but i would hardly brand 7ZIP, Digicortex or Handbrake as renderings...

Intel Core i9-12900K, i7-12700K & i5-12600K im Test: Benchmarks in Anwendungen

Intel Alder Lake im Test: Benchmarks in Anwendungen / Ein rekordverdächtiger Testumfang / Windows 10 vs. Windows 11

www.computerbase.de

And when was the last time you ran any of those? Do you even use 7-zip, which would easily be the most popular of the 3?

How many people you figure use Photoshop vs Digicortex, a biological neural simulation?

Like maybe, 100,000: 1 ?

Literally probably more than that.

You know what most people I know use when they encode \ transcode something? It's obvious if you think about it. Try doing that.

 

[AtenRa]

So i bought my 10850K back in Jan 2021 for $309.

At that time 5600X was $300 and 5800X was $450.

By your logic, gen 10 was superior to Zen 3 because the price was better for a better performing chip. And a 10850K should have been compared to a 5600X because it was more or less the same price.

If 10850K was selling at $309 back in Jan 2021 then it is obvious that this CPU was superior at that time vs ZEN 3 5600X at $300.

Today at $300 we have the options of Ryzen 5700X (65W TDP) at $270 and AL Core i5 12600KF (125W TDP) at $260

Those two are almost identical and competing well against each other, one is better at some things and the other is better in other things.
But the differences are not as you described a few posts above.

 

[Abwx]

And when was the last time you ran any of those? Do you even use 7-zip, which would easily be the most popular of the 3?

How many people you figure use Photoshop vs Digicortex, a biological neural simulation?

Like maybe, 100,000: 1 ?

Literally probably more than that.

You know what most people I know use when they encode \ transcode something? It's obvious if you think about it. Try doing that.


View attachment 66096

Thats a test that use 8 cores if we look at the difference between the AMD CPUs....

That being said you should know that the 12900K is 10% faster than a 5900X in MT, and it does so by the virtue of a 70% higher TDP.

As i pointed it the extended TDP blur the lines, if efficency is to be discarded then good ole FX9590X was on point at the time, but guess what, it was discarded because of the exagerated TDP.

 

[shady28]

What words did I put in your mouth? I took your exact words seriously:

So let me ask again with explicit language for the workloads where you have the highest confidence level: how much faster do you think Alder Lake (or Raptor Lake) will be over Zen 4 in media editing and compiling benchmarks?

On those types of apps, I think Zen 4 will still fall behind Alder Lake by 10% or more when comparing 7600X to 12600K or 7700X to 12700K.

If 10850K was selling at $309 back in Jan 2021 then it is obvious that this CPU was superior at that time vs ZEN 3 5600X at $300.

Today at $300 we have the options of Ryzen 5700X (65W TDP) at $270 and AL Core i5 12600KF (125W TDP) at $260

Those two are almost identical and competing well against each other, one is better at some things and the other is better in other things.
But the differences are not as you described a few posts above.

I'll say it again more clearly. If you are just doing price comparisons, after a few months at a given price level Intel and AMD will *always* be more or less the same.

That's because the market will move the prices at a given performance level to a competitive point.

When Zen 3 came out it shifted all of the Gen 10 Intel parts down a notch. The 10700K had to shift to $300 and compete against the 5600X, the 10900K shifted to $$400-$450 to compete between the 5800X and 5900X. Intel had nothing to compete against the 5950X.

Alder Lake did exactly the same thing to Zen 3, that Zen 3 did to Comet Lake Gen 10. It forced AMD to lower its prices and their 'performance' 5000X series had to compete with lower tiered SKUs. This is really simple folks.

There's a difference between doing a price/performance comparison, which is dynamic and constantly changing, and comparing SKU tires in two generations of chips.

 

[shady28]

Thats a test that use 8 cores if we look at the difference between the AMD CPUs....

That being said you should know that the 12900K is 10% faster than a 5900X in MT, and it does so by the virtue of a 70% higher TDP.

As i pointed it the extended TDP blur the lines, if efficency is to be discarded then good ole FX9590X was on point at the time, but guess what, it was discarded because of the exagerated TDP.

TDP I find un-interesting because it is largely mis-used. You don't get to those power levels these amateur sites talk of unless you are running all cores max constantly. The rest of the time - while the PC is idle or doing very light threaded stuff as probably 99.9% of the folks reading this are - the Intel platforms have an advantage.

 

[AtenRa]

On those types of apps, I think Zen 4 will still fall behind Alder Lake by 10% or more when comparing 7600X to 12600K or 7700X to 12700K.



I'll say it again more clearly. If you are just doing price comparisons, after a few months at a given price level Intel and AMD will *always* be more or less the same.

That's because the market will move the prices at a given performance level to a competitive point.

When Zen 3 came out it shifted all of the Gen 10 Intel parts down a notch. The 10700K had to shift to $300 and compete against the 5600X, the 10900K shifted to $$400-$450 to compete between the 5800X and 5900X. Intel had nothing to compete against the 5950X.

Alder Lake did exactly the same thing to Zen 3, that Zen 3 did to Comet Lake Gen 10. It forced AMD to lower its prices and their 'performance' 5000X series had to compete with lower tiered SKUs. This is really simple folks.

There's a difference between doing a price/performance comparison, which is dynamic and constantly changing, and comparing SKU tires in two generations of chips.

What matters at the end is what you can buy at the same price at the time you want to build or upgrade your system.
The reasons ZEN 3 forced Gen 10 or what AL forced ZEN 3 related to prices is irrelevant, what matters is the time you compare and the price of the products.

Unless you only want to speak technically , then it is obvious that AL that came one year later it is in many ways superior to ZEN 3 , but still not in every aspect even one year later.

 

[maddie]

Hahaha, that's hilarious. You want to think you are open minded. But then you shut down open debate by blocking users with different opinions and live in an echo chamber. I hope you enjoy it there.

What what what, did did did, you you you, say say say?