Rant: Winter Driving

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DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
Is it not a bit ironic then that the reason you avoided the accident was that you were traveling faster than the guy who cause the accident? BTW, awesome rear view mirror - if someone was only a couple feet behind me, I wouldn't be able to see them swerve all the way to the right, then over correct - not through my rear view mirror anyhow.

p.s. going to the office in 10" of snow? I thought they closed VA down after about 4"? My brother temporarily lived in VA and thought it was hilarious that after a bit of snow, every business in town would close and he'd be the only one out in his car.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
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BTW, the only thing ABS is good for on highways is for slowing down when idiots pull into the passing lane doing only 30mph. If you have to use your brakes while driving on snow covered roads, and it's not because someone just got in your way, you're doing it wrong.

(Well, of course, unless you're just having fun driving sideways down the road instead of forward down the road.)

Or if you are in rush hour traffic? Traffic that tends to accelerate up to speed and then slow down abruptly without warning....

I'm not sure what world you live in where people all move at a constant speed 100% of the time, but I haven't yet heard of a place where that exists.
 

guyver01

Lifer
Sep 25, 2000
22,135
5
61
BTW, awesome rear view mirror - if someone was only a couple feet behind me, I wouldn't be able to see them swerve all the way to the right, then over correct - not through my rear view mirror anyhow.


Now that ya mention it.... i probably wouldn't be looking in my rear view mirror for the whole 30 seconds that took. I'd probably glance quickly, but get back to paying attention to what's in front of me.

Since.. that's what safe and attentive drivers do.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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0
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Is it not a bit ironic then that the reason you avoided the accident was that you were traveling faster than the guy who cause the accident? BTW, awesome rear view mirror - if someone was only a couple feet behind me, I wouldn't be able to see them swerve all the way to the right, then over correct - not through my rear view mirror anyhow.

I wasn't traveling faster than him. I was ahead of him and he was quickly catching up.

Additionally, I saw him start to lose control a few feet behind me at which point it obviously slowed him down pretty fast since there was a lot of sideways movement.

Like I asked the other poster, why are you here? You are a Forum Administrator and you are sitting here insulting another forum member. A little hypocritical?
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
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Now that ya mention it.... i probably wouldn't be looking in my rear view mirror for the whole 30 seconds that took. I'd probably glance quickly, but get back to paying attention to what's in front of me.

Since.. that's what safe and attentive drivers do.

Yeaaa it takes 30 seconds for a person to crash after they lose control....
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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In Virginia it might... since 3" of snow is enough to make you drop to 30mph.

I will admit that was well played, sir.

3" of snow during an evening rush hour commute in the DC Area is a bit different then the trivialized version you are posting about. The weather isn't the only thing that dictates speed, it is merely a major factor.
 

guyver01

Lifer
Sep 25, 2000
22,135
5
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3" of snow during an evening rush hour commute in the DC Area is a bit different then the trivialized version you are posting about. The weather isn't the only thing that dictates speed, it is merely a major factor.

Well.. you never said it was rush hour traffic...

and i find it hard to believe that someone was going 50mph.

In rush hour traffic... i can barely get about 20mph.
 

olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
50,125
779
126
We were just in Montana, near West Yellowstone. The speed limit was 60 MPH. There was 6 inches of pack on the road. Most everyone (including me) were doing 60 MPH.

I have driven in the snow since I was 16. I plowed it for almost 20 years. I love going by asswipes (people that can't drive in the snow) sideways, snow spraying from my tires and then get in front of them and leave them in the dust.

I do this just to show them that it's not necessary to go 10 MPH because there is snow/ice on the road. At least not if you have a brain and can drive.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
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BTW, the only thing ABS is good for on highways is for slowing down when idiots pull into the passing lane doing only 30mph. If you have to use your brakes while driving on snow covered roads, and it's not because someone just got in your way, you're doing it wrong.

(Well, of course, unless you're just having fun driving sideways down the road instead of forward down the road.)

Truth omg is this the truth.

I was insanely irritated and slightly terrified when I was a passenger on the highway, and all traffic was going about 35mph, and well... it would have been easier to count the number of people who wouldn't tap on the brakes constantly for no reason.

And this is ignoring the brake lights you see people someone has to adjust speed because someone in front is adjusting speed.

But few people wanted to obey the common rule of a few seconds in-between vehicles (and that's in perfect conditions). I practice a method of driving where I enjoy going fast, often over the speed limit, but if I use the brakes to adjust speed it is because there are idiots doing idiotic things in front of me. Simply letting off the accelerator works people, try it!

I've approached many people, where I'm easily going faster than they are and catching up, and they also seem to be actually slowing down (distance in-between is shrinking faster than anticipated, my speed remained constant)... and I still don't need brakes. Coast to match speed, then go from there.

BTW, the passenger moment mentioned above, we had no more than two inches of snow, mostly slush on the highway, but some packed areas. Traffic slowed at times because it was essentially white out conditions, couldn't see the car in 100ft in front of you.

There were patches of ice here and there, apparently... but I think what scared most people were the vehicles crashed on the side of the road (I lost count on our 150 mile or so trip).
But what didn't help people who actually knew how to drive, were the idiots in both lanes going insanely slow.

Our driver was going 35mph like the majority, but there were times I wished he would have sped up (but, let the one driving actually drive at the pace they feel comfortable, I won't nag someone during adverse conditions).

This was like the first snowfall in Western Ohio, and drivers were apparently freaked. I know my RWD Dakota (sand in the back, doesn't help much) could have easily gone 45 or 50 in the snow we had (probably not faster because of the retards everywhere on the road).

Now, one other time, I was absolutely terrified driving at 35mph (same vehicle). That we had like 10" of fairly fresh snow on the highway, completely untouched by road crews. Ruts were formed in the right lane (so passing the ones who were even more terrified going 15 or 20 was a nightmare, both getting out of the ruts formed, into mostly untouched powder on the left, and then back into ruts. I was fine each time we had to do that, but I fishtailed 3 times on that trip regardless, and mind you, going under 40mph.

Type of vehicle definitely comes into question, but the other big thing: how frequent large amounts of snow is in a region. Fewer chances to acclimate means you are less likely to be as good in such weather as people who have to drive that far more frequently. And first snowfalls are always a bitch, people freak out something crazy.

I'm not super comfortable in snow, but after 7 years with this Dakota, I've learned how to listen to every little thing it wants to tell me (and lately, this is with a little bit of a loose steering wheel at center). I would definitely say I'm more comfortable with a fair amount of packed snow than I am a little snow, a little slush, and being able to see the roadway half of the time. That shit is the worst amount of snow imho, as everyone forgets that amount of varied traction can cause a few issues, and then it's up to the driver's correction ability. Half my anxiety when driving is snow is not how I'll handle the situation, but how the idiots around me will handle it. Half the time driving it becomes "if you want to go careening off to the side, please wait a few moments until I'm away from you."
 

guyver01

Lifer
Sep 25, 2000
22,135
5
61
I plowed it for almost 20 years.

RedneckSnowPlow.jpg
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
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The one thing I've noticed is that car manufacturers are making it ever increasingly hard to figure out WTF your car is really doing. My Malibu has some sort of electronic steering where the steering column doesn't get any real feedback from what your front wheels are doing. In the old rack and pinion setups you could at least get a direct feel back from the road what was happening. Now you've got a steering column stuck in a tub of butter with some sensors on it.

I have to go slower simply because I don't know WTF I'm feeling in the road. Is it really my tires sliping or sliding or is it the electronic system trying to overcorrect things.

I used to feel fine doing 50 or 55 on snow packed roads in my older cars without all the elctronic do-dads. But with all of this removed direct feedback between the road and the car it's like driving a video game.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Well.. you never said it was rush hour traffic...

and i find it hard to believe that someone was going 50mph.

In rush hour traffic... i can barely get about 20mph.

Oh sorry. I probably forgot to mention it in the original post. My mistake though.

Rush hour traffic was a bit lighter today because Government buildings closed early, schools were out, and it was 5PM instead of 5:30.

Additionally, I'm not sure if you are familiar with the area near Dulles airport at all, the Dulles town center has a light at the intersection (For honestly no apparent reason). We were all at the front of a pack of traffic just following the light so the area in front of us was clear for a little bit until Rt28 divides into Rt7.
 

olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
50,125
779
126
Another thing that was fun.
Find some yokel snow plowing on their skis.
Get some speed up and lay back on your skis.
Come from behind them and ski between their legs.
Look back as the fall out of fear.

3061274858_e0b5f195b3_b.jpg
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
The one thing I've noticed is that car manufacturers are making it ever increasingly hard to figure out WTF your car is really doing. My Malibu has some sort of electronic steering where the steering column doesn't get any real feedback from what your front wheels are doing. In the old rack and pinion setups you could at least get a direct feel back from the road what was happening. Now you've got a steering column stuck in a tub of butter with some sensors on it.

I have to go slower simply because I don't know WTF I'm feeling in the road. Is it really my tires sliping or sliding or is it the electronic system trying to overcorrect things.

I used to feel fine doing 50 or 55 on snow packed roads in my older cars without all the elctronic do-dads. But with all of this removed direct feedback between the road and the car it's like driving a video game.

It is a LOT different. I came from a 95.5 Tacoma which had power nothing and while it slipped and slid everywhere I could feel everything in that truck.

I really like my new truck now, but it is a lot more complicated. I purposely tried to fish tail last time it rained and just when it started sliding and I started correcting, something came on (as indicated by a light and blinking) (probably Stability Control/Traction Control/LSD) and the think stopped any fish tailing fun I was about to have before it even started.

More on your point though, I feel like Electronic Steering Assistance is nice, but you really don't feel the road nearly as much. It feels like you have complete control of the wheel no matter if the front tires are sliding or not - just one fluid motion.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Another thing that was fun.
Find some yokel snow plowing on their skis.
Get some speed up and lay back on your skis.
Come from behind them and ski between their legs.
Look back as the fall out of fear.

3061274858_e0b5f195b3_b.jpg

I always found it fun to white wash people I knew who were looking a bit shaky or doing something like in that picture :)

I don't get to ski much, so it really stunk for me when I was getting used to skiing again and I fell over at the end when trying to do that =P
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
BTW, the only thing ABS is good for on highways is for slowing down when idiots pull into the passing lane doing only 30mph. If you have to use your brakes while driving on snow covered roads, and it's not because someone just got in your way, you're doing it wrong.

(Well, of course, unless you're just having fun driving sideways down the road instead of forward down the road.)

Yep. I often get all the way to work barely using the brakes at all when we have a few inches of snow. I will tap them occasionally when it's safe, to see what sort of braking action I have available. The only time I get on the brakes is when I park the car at my office.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
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More on your point though, I feel like Electronic Steering Assistance is nice, but you really don't feel the road nearly as much. It feels like you have complete control of the wheel no matter if the front tires are sliding or not - just one fluid motion.

I hate it. At least GM's version of it. My Mazda5 had some form of it, but it was mostly transparent. But GM's implementation is horrible. You can actually feel it trying to fiddle with the wheel when driving in a straight line. It really freaks out if you are doing 55MPH and then hammer the gas and pass someone. It doesn't know if it should lock down and tighten the wheel or losen up and let you do what you want.

On roads with poor traction it's just flat out unnerving. About 5 years ago I was driving a Nissan Frontier (had 4x4 but was in 2WD) in western Iowa at night on I-80 between Omaha and Des Moines. It had been snowing and freezing rain quite a bit. Road's were in decent shape. Left lane was nasty, but right lane seemed clear. Ended up hitting a really bad patch of ice that was a couple hundred yards long. I was doing 55 at the time. Truck fishtailed all over the place but after turning into the slide 3 or 4 times I finally got it back on track. I have no idea how I kept it on the road or didn't flip.

Needless to say I whiteknuckled it for the next 4 hours as I got to the other side of the state.

I'm still somewhat cautious to the day because of that incident. All the confidence and ability in the world can still be undone with one freak patch of road. I let people drive at their comfort and give them room in bad conditions. I ask the same of others around me.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
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Yep. I often get all the way to work barely using the brakes at all when we have a few inches of snow. I will tap them occasionally when it's safe, to see what sort of braking action I have available. The only time I get on the brakes is when I park the car at my office.

That's one great function of the new "shiftable" automatics. I have some decent sized hills (for the midwest) that I have to climb & decend daily around river bottoms and I can just tap down to a lower gear to let the engine brake for me while going down.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,585
3,796
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If you have to use your brakes while driving on snow covered roads, and it's not because someone just got in your way, you're doing it wrong.

I see people breaking all the time in the middle of a turn on an icy curve. :rolleyes:

I have driven in the snow since I was 16. I plowed it for almost 20 years. I love going by asswipes (people that can't drive in the snow) sideways, snow spraying from my tires and then get in front of them and leave them in the dust.

I do this just to show them that it's not necessary to go 10 MPH because there is snow/ice on the road. At least not if you have a brain and can drive.

I think I big issue is that people don't understand how their car handles in the snow. I am a firm believer of taking any new car you get and, on the first really snowy/icy day, finding a nice open parking lot and learning how your car handles
 

rcpratt

Lifer
Jul 2, 2009
10,433
110
116
The one thing I've noticed is that car manufacturers are making it ever increasingly hard to figure out WTF your car is really doing. My Malibu has some sort of electronic steering where the steering column doesn't get any real feedback from what your front wheels are doing. In the old rack and pinion setups you could at least get a direct feel back from the road what was happening. Now you've got a steering column stuck in a tub of butter with some sensors on it.

I have to go slower simply because I don't know WTF I'm feeling in the road. Is it really my tires sliping or sliding or is it the electronic system trying to overcorrect things.

I used to feel fine doing 50 or 55 on snow packed roads in my older cars without all the elctronic do-dads. But with all of this removed direct feedback between the road and the car it's like driving a video game.
Maybe I don't know because the oldest car I've driven was an...'05? The only extra thing my car has right now is electronic traction control (Ford). But I have always felt like I can just "feel" what my car is doing, back wheels or front. Maybe I haven't experienced what you have.

The traction control is pretty useless in my estimation though. I really enjoy the flashing yellow light every time it activates.
 
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nsafreak

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2001
7,093
3
81
News at 11:

People are morons, especially on the highway.

In other news neckarb is likely to post something equally moronic in this thread if he hasn't already.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,585
3,796
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Simply letting off the accelerator works people, try it!

Oh - I would love it if people settled down a tad when using the brakes. Not every situation calls for it

Half my anxiety when driving is snow is not how I'll handle the situation, but how the idiots around me will handle it.

Very much so. My only two weather related accidents were when:
1.) Car next to me started fishtailing and slammed into the side of my car
2.) Car pulled out in front of me oh so very slowly because of the ice. (They had a stop sign, I did not) Unfortunately said ice also made it impossible for me to stop in time

Ended up hitting a really bad patch of ice that was a couple hundred yards long. I was doing 55 at the time. Truck fishtailed all over the place but after turning into the slide 3 or 4 times I finally got it back on track. I have no idea how I kept it on the road or didn't flip.

Needless to say I whiteknuckled it for the next 4 hours as I got to the other side of the state.

My one really (really) bad moment was going down the express way at a amazingly fast 20mph after a horrible ice storm. I changed lanes for some reason (I don't remember what) and ended up doing about (4) complete 360s down the expressway before I got it under control. I still have no idea how I kept it between the guard rails lining the side of the highway

I am sure it was quite a show for the cars behind me
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I see people breaking all the time in the middle of a turn on an icy curve. :rolleyes:



I think I big issue is that people don't understand how their car handles in the snow. I am a firm believer of taking any new car you get and, on the first really snowy/icy day, finding a nice open parking lot and learning how your car handles

Yes yes yes.

Even on dry pavement, I have made it a perfect habit of doing all my braking before I turn, though sometimes I consciously let that go if traffic is bad, I need to turn, and don't feel like finding out exactly what level of abilities the drivers around me have.. I'll brake while turning. But I never, ever, brake in anything other than a straight line if the roads are wet with some type of precipitation. On snow, that line starts further away and I test the brakes on the approach multiple times to feel for the amount of traction. Before I commit to the turn I won't allow myself to turn the wheel until I know I am at the correct speed for even a stretch that has little or no traction, of course depending on the observed conditions of the area or knowledge of a stretch of road that is often bad.

For those who are vocal here, you don't see it much. But I am constantly under the impression most people don't care to understand their vehicles. It should get them from A to B, and that's it. Actually understanding how the car communicates different things to the driver in various ways? Bah, no idea what you're talking about man, it's gets me from here to there and that's all I care about.
Hmph. These are the folk you most often seen flipped in the ditch in bad weather. I make it a goal to stay as far away from anyone who looks oblivious to the machine they steer, and it's not hard to make fairly accurate judgments simply by looking into their vehicle.


Both vehicles I've owned, the first winter with them I took them to an abandoned parking lot and had a little fun. Learned some things there, and learned some things on the road when thankfully nobody was around. In fact, I've never stopped learning when it comes to the vehicles I drive. Even when I'm not a driver, I'm always trying to listen to what the vehicle is telling the driver (though without feeling the wheel, a lot of that talk is not heard).

My next car, because I envision I'll be around Ohio or this region for a fair bit of time, I hope will be an AWD Sedan of some sort, or an AWD hatch if a good one comes into view. I haven't stopped researching what's out there, because I demand as close to perfect as I can afford on a tiny budget. Haven't gotten far into looking into the reliability of specific models, but high praise has been heard for a few models. Hoping an affordable used model will pop up when I am actually looking to buy, specifically either a Subaru WRX or Mitsubishi Lancer. Would love the fancier models, but the WRX or the Lancer Ralliart would meet my needs. I'd be happy with an AWD Impreza or Legacy (Subaru). Of course there's more to proper handling than the vehicle itself, but that kind of upgrade (from a RWD small truck to AWD heavy sedan), would definitely be nice.