[RANT]Sometimes, I just hate people...

[Hayabusa Rider]

<<

<< Having kids do stupid things is a different matter altogether. I guess you could say that it's needed for them to grow up. But these individuals wwho tormented this helpless creature were 20+ year old! they knew exactly what they were doing![/b! >>

(emphasis mine) For the third time, substances like alcohol impair the higher brain functions. They couldn't form a proper judgement due to the intoxication. This does not excuse them from their actions, because their only mistake was to get drunk. Beyond that they had little to no control over their actions. >>



I disagree Elledan. I have been drunk, and I always knew the difference between right and wrong. Oh yes judgement suffers, but it is incremental. In my case and that of most others (as evidenced by the LACK of this being common behavior), this cruelty does not happen.

 

<< Being drunk is no valid excuse for stupidity IMO. >>




<< Drunken or not, most people are smart enough not to act like morons. >>


You have a lot to learn.

Just accept that people are not as perfect as you.

 

Listen to me, hon', I'm not about to get into the details of this matter since I'm not well informed on it and did not witness it myself.

However, here's my piece of the pie: It takes so much energy to hate. If you have that much energy to waste, then that is your cup of tea--not mine. But I do most definitely see an inherent inconsistency in your practice, for your conduct of hate is just as powerful as whatever motivation the alleged offenders found to engage in such activity.

Spend your energy as you wish, but that is not my cup of tea.

 

[BooneRebel]

The problem is video games, I tell you! If it wasn't for that crazy "Sonic the Hedgehog" game, then these kids wouldn't have been tempted to test the super powers of this innocent hedgehog. As a result now their faith has been crushed and they're left with nothing to believe in.

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< Having kids do stupid things is a different matter altogether. I guess you could say that it's needed for them to grow up. But these individuals wwho tormented this helpless creature were 20+ year old! they knew exactly what they were doing! >>

(emphasis mine)

For the third time, substances like alcohol impair the higher brain functions. They couldn't form a proper judgement due to the intoxication.

This does not excuse them from their actions, because their only mistake was to get drunk. Beyond that they had little to no control over their actions. >>



have been drunk in my life (well, not anymore. Decided it was stupid and useless and I stopped doing it), and I knew back then what I were doing, even if I were drunk.

 

[Elledan]

<< I disagree Elledan. I have been drunk, and I always knew the difference between right and wrong. Oh yes judgement suffers, but it is incremental. >>

Studies have shown that after a person becomes intoxicated due to alcohol or a similar substance, activity in certain areas of the brain decreases, especially parts which are thought to play a role in judgement and conscience.


<< In my case and that of most others (as evidenced by the LACK of this being common behavior), this cruelty does not happen. >>


After the higher brainfunctions have become impaired, the behaviour of the affected individual becomes unpredictable. It depends on the brainstructure (personality) of the person how s/he will react to stimuli. Some become aggressive, others depressed, others lethargic. There's no way to tell with certainty, although culture appears to play a role.

 

[Elledan]

<< have been drunk in my life (well, not anymore. Decided it was stupid and useless and I stopped doing it), and I knew back then what I were doing, even if I were drunk. >>


Numerous studies have proven the opposite of what you claim.

You mustn't have been as drunk as you thought.

BTW, some time ago when I suffered a minor concussion due to an accident, people talked to me to keep me conscious. All that time I thought that I was making perfect sense and had no trouble thinking 'straight'.

Some of these people later told me that I was almost talking nonsense during that time. I had not realized this.

 

[Nemesis77]

Luvly:

Don't read too much in to my subject of this thread . It pretty much the same when people say "I hate people who act stupid". It doesn't necessairly REALLY mean that they really, deep down, hate those people. I agree, hate is an extremely strong emotion.

Elledan: While you are right, alcohol does cloud judgement. But those people wouldn't have done what they did if it wasn't already in 'em. Even if I got drunk right now, I couldn't act and behave in a way that would be completely alien to me. I couldn't go around attacking people for example. You could say that alcohol intensifies the characteristics you already have, but it doesn't really create new ones. Well, I'm not expert on alcohol (like I said, I stopped doing that), but that's what I have noticed in my friends who drink and in myself back when I used to drink sometimes.

Besides, this whole thing is getting sidetracked. Group of people did something extremely cruel. That is all there is to it.

 

[Elledan]

<< While you are right, alcohol does cloud judgement. But those people wouldn't have done what they did if it wasn't already in 'em. >>

A common misconception.

It's like saying that only some people are capable of torturing other people. This myth has been disproven already some time ago.


<< Even if I got drunk right now, I couldn't act and behave in a way that would be completely alien to me. >>

Why not? Because you've never really been drunk?


<< I couldn't go around attacking people for example. You could say that alcohol intensifies the characteristics you already have, but it doesn't really create new ones. Well, I'm not expert on alcohol (like I said, I stopped doing that), but that's what I have noticed in my friends who drink and in myself back when I used to drink sometimes. >>


It's far more complicated than that.

 

[Ultima]

Reminds me of these losers who would catch frogs and burn them slowly for "fun"

 

[Elledan]

<< Besides, this whole thing is getting sidetracked. Group of people did something extremely cruel. That is all there is to it. >>


On the contrary, there is a far larger issue than this cruelty, which, although a most gruesome act, is a non-issue compared to the underlying reasons.

No one yet understands Human behaviour. No one yet understands consciousness. No one yet understands how the 'new' parts of the Human brain interface and work together with the 'older' (from an evolutionair perspective) parts.

From what we know, it appears that substances like alcohol somehow disable or seriously impair the functioning of these newer parts, which causes affected individuals to act mostly on instinct, after the aforementioned 'older' parts 'take over'.

 

[gopunk]

<<

<< While you are right, alcohol does cloud judgement. But those people wouldn't have done what they did if it wasn't already in 'em. >>

A common misconception.
It's like saying that only some people are capable of torturing other people. This myth has been disproven already some time ago. >>



i'm not seeing your connection. alcohol lowers inhibitions, which results in whatever actions take place. since when was this disproven?

furthermore elledan, if you think about it, it's not that efficient for you to post your arguments here. your time is much better spent doing other things

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

<<

<< Besides, this whole thing is getting sidetracked. Group of people did something extremely cruel. That is all there is to it. >>

On the contrary, there is a far larger issue than this cruelty, which, although a most gruesome act, is a non-issue compared to the underlying reasons. No one yet understands Human behaviour. No one yet understands consciousness. No one yet understands how the 'new' parts of the Human brain interface and work together with the 'older' (from an evolutionair perspective) parts. From what we know, it appears that substances like alcohol somehow disable or seriously impair the functioning of these newer parts, which causes affected individuals to act mostly on instinct, after the aforementioned 'older' parts 'take over'. >>




My last attempt Elledan

One does not need to know how an engine works to drive a car or know that if you run into a crowd of people, someone is going to get hurt. That is empirical science. Empirical fact- Millions get drunk. Few torture. They did it because they WANTED to. No one is saying alcohol doesn't affect behavior, however unless you are just about to pass out, you have a pretty good idea if you are doing something you shouldn't. BTW, what is YOUR experience with alcohol? I daresay you have never done anything so out of character that it was inexplicable

 

[Elledan]

<< Empirical fact- Millions get drunk. Few torture. >>

The behaviour of drunken persons is far more interesting, actually.


<< They did it because they WANTED to. >>

Proof?


<< No one is saying alcohol doesn't affect behavior, however unless you are just about to pass out, you have a pretty good idea if you are doing something you shouldn't. >>

Alcohol does impair judgement, large amounts of alcohol causes certain parts of the brain to stop functioning. When this happens, the person does not remember anything of that period, they did not have control over their actions during that time.


<< BTW, what is YOUR experience with alcohol? I daresay you have never done anything so out of character that it was inexplicable >>


My experiences with alcohol are irrelevant. Only empirical data counts.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<<

<< While you are right, alcohol does cloud judgement. But those people wouldn't have done what they did if it wasn't already in 'em. >>

A common misconception.
It's like saying that only some people are capable of torturing other people. This myth has been disproven already some time ago. >>



i'm not seeing your connection. alcohol lowers inhibitions, which results in whatever actions take place. since when was this disproven? >>


The point being made was that only people who had a 'violent' nature would become violent after they had become drunk.
This is not the case. Every individual is capable of becoming violent once s/he becomes drunk, it depends on the stimuli received during and after birth, which includes the culture the person grows up in, and growth-process of the individual's brain.

The 'ability' to become violent is there, but it can be inhibited by other 'abilities'. Depending on the above mentioned factors, the corresponding behaviour of a drunk person can differ between a wide range of states.



<< furthermore elledan, if you think about it, it's not that efficient for you to post your arguments here. your time is much better spent doing other things >>

I know, that's why I love this place: no one gives a damn about what I or anyone else tries to tell. It's like the ideal sparring partner

 

[Maleficus]

I'm gonna have to stay away from threads like this, they fill me with uncontrollable rage.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Oh well, I have found you a reason, I am not obligated to find you an understanding.


Always loved Samuel Johnson

 

[Amused]

<< Sometimes, I just hate people... >>



You too? Have we found something we can agree on, Nemesis77?

 

[rahvin]

<< The point being made was that only people who had a 'violent' nature would become violent after they had become drunk.
This is not the case. Every individual is capable of becoming violent once s/he becomes drunk, it depends on the stimuli received during and after birth, which includes the culture the person grows up in, and growth-process of the individual's brain.

The 'ability' to become violent is there, but it can be inhibited by other 'abilities'. Depending on the above mentioned factors, the corresponding behaviour of a drunk person can differ between a wide range of states. >>



On the contrary, although numerous drunks are capable and do engage in violent behavior I have never heard of torture for pleasure by ordinary people. There has been a definate link proved between those people that torture animals as children and those that end up as violent criminals. It is not far off make a link between those that will torture for pleasure animals when their inhibitions are lowered and potential violent criminals. Should they be locked up for 30 years? Nope, but they should be added to the list of "usual suspects", because in time it is my belief that people that are capable of senseless acts of torture for pleasure will engage in criminal pursuits.

And the penalities for acts of that nature regardless of the cirucumstances should be increased.



<< For the third time, substances like alcohol impair the higher brain functions. They couldn't form a proper judgement due to the intoxication. This does not excuse them from their actions, because their only mistake was to get drunk. Beyond that they had little to no control over their actions. >>



Let me make sure I'm not misinterpreting this. Are you really saying that being drunk is a defense for acts of criminal nature? Ie should someone get a lighter sentence because they were intoxicated?

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Probably the feelings of power they get. Venting social repression maybe. I wouldn't hate them though, we all have the capacity to do such things, we should instead be thankful that we "know better".

 

[HOWITIS]

sometimes i use a contraption that kills mice. it brings a large metallic hammer like thing on their head, and almost cuts it off. somtimes they are still alive and smother on their own blood. i like to call it a mouse trap. sold at most stores in america



i hope i'm not going to jail.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

There is evil in this world and it's not alcohol.

 

[IGBT]

I'll bet their parents dumped them in day care when they were kids..

 

[Elledan]

<< Let me make sure I'm not misinterpreting this. Are you really saying that being drunk is a defense for acts of criminal nature? Ie should someone get a lighter sentence because they were intoxicated? >>


It gets even crazier than that.

Locking someone up in jail is a form of punishment and therefore injustice.

If someone was so drunk that s/he can't even remember what s/he did during that time, s/he will not be allowed to become drunk ever again, this to keep those unconscious urges and desires from surfacing again.
It might be possible to surgically insert a little device in his/her body which would detect an increase in the amount of alcohol in the bloodstream and respond with the release of a substance which would break down the alcohol, or respond in another manner which would prevent the person from getting drunk.

If the person has never shown the same urges and desires when not intoxicated, s/he will no longer have any problems.

But to answer your question in a way which is easier to understand for most people here, no, I'm not suggesting that being drunk is a defense against possible repercussions of a 'criminal' act. Becoming drunk and displaying behaviour which clearly indicates that losing control over your subconscious leads to undesirable results is simply an indication that you should never become drunk again.