RANT: Israeli Occuptaion vs. Suicide Bombing is not Tit for Tat !

[sandorski]

Polm: Good point, if the suicide bombings stopped, perhaps Israel would cease it's hard line, unfortunetly I don't think the suicide bombings would stop, but if Israel backed down they would become less common. The problem is that some Palestinians are of the furthest extreme(those who want Israel exterminated) and as such they would continue their campaign, but as it stands now many Palestinians who wouldn't be that extreme are pushed to that extreme by continued hopelessness. As long as Israel continues pushing Palestinians, Palestinians will continue to gravitate to the extreme always providing plenty of willing bombers. If Israel would give the Palestinians some hope of a future, the supply of new bombers would begin to dry up, eventually relegating bombings to the rarity rather than the daily event.

Israel holds the upper hand here, let's not kid ourselves about that. In their superior position it is up to them to make the first sacrificial(risking some sense of vengeance) step towards a resolution. Israel has a lot to lose by continuing the current cycle, Palestinians lost everything a long time ago and can maintain the cycle forever, such is the reality between haves and have-nots.

If Israel would just take the first significant step, eventually the bombing would stop. It would seem that Israelis rather enjoy the cycle though, at least their continued hard line would indicate that.

 

[DBL]

sure, because trying to make money is the same as a political argument, give it up, it's a stupid excuse.

Does the definition of these words differ based on the circumstances in which they are used? One's credibility is an important consideration.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Polm: Good point, if the suicide bombings stopped, perhaps Israel would cease it's hard line, unfortunetly I don't think the suicide bombings would stop, but if Israel backed down they would become less common. The problem is that some Palestinians are of the furthest extreme(those who want Israel exterminated) and as such they would continue their campaign, but as it stands now many Palestinians who wouldn't be that extreme are pushed to that extreme by continued hopelessness. As long as Israel continues pushing Palestinians, Palestinians will continue to gravitate to the extreme always providing plenty of willing bombers. If Israel would give the Palestinians some hope of a future, the supply of new bombers would begin to dry up, eventually relegating bombings to the rarity rather than the daily event.

Israel holds the upper hand here, let's not kid ourselves about that. In their superior position it is up to them to make the first sacrificial(risking some sense of vengeance) step towards a resolution. Israel has a lot to lose by continuing the current cycle, Palestinians lost everything a long time ago and can maintain the cycle forever, such is the reality between haves and have-nots.

If Israel would just take the first significant step, eventually the bombing would stop. It would seem that Israelis rather enjoy the cycle though, at least their continued hard line would indicate that.

I agree. I am just being realistic. Sharon will NOT MAKE THE FIRST SACRIFICE. I think we all agree on that.

So the only thing to do is elect someone else. Right ? right.

How do we get a liberal leader like Amram Mitzna elected ? We try to persuade to Israli people to democratically elect one.

How do we convince Israelis who are fearing for their life to take a risk on peace ?

 

[sandorski]

Just wanted to add another comment regarding the title of the thread: If this was simply a case of Occupation vs suicide bombing, I'd agree that the Palestinians are not justified, but the situation is far more than a simple Occupation. This is an occupation, annexation, cultural domination, and elimination of Palestinians/Palestine. At one time Israelis and Palestinians lived together peacefully, then as a result of the various wars since 1948 they became split and Israel has been moving increasingly towards a Jewish state only relegating non-Jews to a lesser Second Class, Apartheid Part 2.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Lonyo
If your country was invaded, half the land given to people who made up 1/3 or less of the population and came from another part of the world, what would you do? What it they slowly forced you to give up more and more of your land and make thousands of your people live in refugee camps? What if they destroyed YOUR home so thay they could settle and expand? Would you sit back and watch, or would you get hell of a frustrated and want to do something to get back at them in any way you could? If you were a Palestinian, would you try and reason with people, talking like people have been for many years? The talking hasn't led to much of a solution yet, so what are the 'common' people going to do? The send suicide bombers in.

You really need to study the history of Palestine a little better.

There was no INVASION. No land was taken before the war of 1948.

Do you know the history ? Do you know what the 47 Partition looked like ? Do you know who attacked who in 1948 ?

Noone has been "talking" for years.

The "common people" do not send Suicide Bombers. Terror groups force youngsters to do this through simple brain washing techniques (sp?) .

EDIT: it was no more "their" country than it was the Jewish peoples.

"In one incident, on 10 April 1948, Irgun (Israeli) fighters attacked the village of Deir Yassin (which was in what was to be Arab territory under the UN partition plan) and killed the inhabitants."

Written by a French Red Cross official the day after:
"Driven by fear, the Arabs left their homes [..] first isolated farms, then villages, and in the end whole towns were evacuated"


S Pensorse, a British historian:
"There is no doubt that frightful massacres such as that which took place at Deir Yassin in April 1948 were carried out for the major purpose of frightening the Arab population and causing them to take flight"

So, I was wrong saying the Israelis did some attacking? Seems so(!)


By partition plan, do you mean the one drawn up by the UN, giving all of the southern land to the Jews, and a fair bit of the north as well, such as the main sea port of Jaffa, and the main fertile areas running alongside the Mediterranean Sea?


Maybe no land was taken as such, but Arabs were driven out where the Jews settlers, and there were many Jews who immigrated illegally. They also demanded an independant state, which basically would only come about if land was taken from the Palestinians (this was in the 1930's).
Then there were the Jewish terrorists who bombed the British in order to get their way, maybe the Arabs are taking a leaf out of their book?

Of course, we can forget that the Jews basically bought their land and bough their own state through funds given to the American president which gently encouraged him to put pressure on the British for a Jewish state.
Ah, and of course then there's the even in 1947 when Britain handed Palestine over to the UN, because after 30 years there were still many problems that had not been solved. So, now in 2003 we're going to be able to solve it all by stopping suicide bombings? Over 80 years of restlessness and killing will be ended by this one action? I THINK NOT. Maybe it's not helping, but there's no real incentive to stop, because the pressure the Israelis put on the Palestinian land will still be there.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Polm: The problem is that some Palestinians are of the furthest extreme(those who want Israel exterminated) and as such they would continue their campaign, but as it stands now many Palestinians who wouldn't be that extreme are pushed to that extreme by continued hopelessness.

If Israel would just take the first significant step, eventually the bombing would stop. It would seem that Israelis rather enjoy the cycle though, at least their continued hard line would indicate that.

You contradict yourself. You are right that many fundamentalist Palestinians would not stop the violence regardless of whether Israel dismantles the settlements. They want NO Israel. Unfortunately, it is these fundamentalists (Hamas...) who control Palestinian society. How can you then claim the violence will stop if Israel takes the first step? Perhaps if they took the first step?into the sea?

 

[Bulk Beef]

Lonyo, do you think Israel should exist now?

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: polm



You may be able to draw a few parrallels with the issue of Native Americans vs. Palestinians. But remember the Native Americans were the only ones living on this land when we came here. We deceptively slaughtered them and stole ALL their land.

BTW..someone DID draw it on a map. This was not land that was ever "up for grabs" . Palestine already had a ruling body (The British) . The Arabs and Jews living there were BOTH invited to stay there by the British.

The Jews were not invited to stay as such, more Jews were invited to move to the land. If the Jews who were there had been allowed to stay, but immigration hadn't been allowed, it might have been different.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Just wanted to add another comment regarding the title of the thread: If this was simply a case of Occupation vs suicide bombing, I'd agree that the Palestinians are not justified, but the situation is far more than a simple Occupation. This is an occupation, annexation, cultural domination, and elimination of Palestinians/Palestine. At one time Israelis and Palestinians lived together peacefully, then as a result of the various wars since 1948 they became split and Israel has been moving increasingly towards a Jewish state only relegating non-Jews to a lesser Second Class, Apartheid Part 2.

sandorski: you bring up some great points. My initial rant stemmed from this article : Link

The situation is very complex. The terrible choices that Israel has made are rather evident. You pointed many out already (occupation, annexation, etc.) Israel has a huge responsibilty to remedy the mistakes it has made. Unfortunately the ISraely govt. is too conveniently occupied with the onslaught from the terror groups to deal with the issues you so rightly pointed out.

Stop the bombs and the Israely government will have NO CHOICE but to deal with the situation. The bombing only makes it easier for them to skirt the issue.

 

[Czar]

Doesnt Israel have a choice to end their illegal settlements?

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Lonyo
If your country was invaded, half the land given to people who made up 1/3 or less of the population and came from another part of the world, what would you do? What it they slowly forced you to give up more and more of your land and make thousands of your people live in refugee camps? What if they destroyed YOUR home so thay they could settle and expand? Would you sit back and watch, or would you get hell of a frustrated and want to do something to get back at them in any way you could? If you were a Palestinian, would you try and reason with people, talking like people have been for many years? The talking hasn't led to much of a solution yet, so what are the 'common' people going to do? The send suicide bombers in.

You really need to study the history of Palestine a little better.

There was no INVASION. No land was taken before the war of 1948.

Do you know the history ? Do you know what the 47 Partition looked like ? Do you know who attacked who in 1948 ?

Noone has been "talking" for years.

The "common people" do not send Suicide Bombers. Terror groups force youngsters to do this through simple brain washing techniques (sp?) .

EDIT: it was no more "their" country than it was the Jewish peoples.

"In one incident, on 10 April 1948, Irgun (Israeli) fighters attacked the village of Deir Yassin (which was in what was to be Arab territory under the UN partition plan) and killed the inhabitants."

Written by a French Red Cross official the day after:
"Driven by fear, the Arabs left their homes [..] first isolated farms, then villages, and in the end whole towns were evacuated"


S Pensorse, a British historian:
"There is no doubt that frightful massacres such as that which took place at Deir Yassin in April 1948 were carried out for the major purpose of frightening the Arab population and causing them to take flight"

So, I was wrong saying the Israelis did some attacking? Seems so(!)


By partition plan, do you mean the one drawn up by the UN, giving all of the southern land to the Jews, and a fair bit of the north as well, such as the main sea port of Jaffa, and the main fertile areas running alongside the Mediterranean Sea?


Maybe no land was taken as such, but Arabs were driven out where the Jews settlers, and there were many Jews who immigrated illegally. They also demanded an independant state, which basically would only come about if land was taken from the Palestinians (this was in the 1930's).
Then there were the Jewish terrorists who bombed the British in order to get their way, maybe the Arabs are taking a leaf out of their book?

Of course, we can forget that the Jews basically bought their land and bough their own state through funds given to the American president which gently encouraged him to put pressure on the British for a Jewish state.
Ah, and of course then there's the even in 1947 when Britain handed Palestine over to the UN, because after 30 years there were still many problems that had not been solved. So, now in 2003 we're going to be able to solve it all by stopping suicide bombings? Over 80 years of restlessness and killing will be ended by this one action? I THINK NOT. Maybe it's not helping, but there's no real incentive to stop, because the pressure the Israelis put on the Palestinian land will still be there.

You certainly are excluding a lot of what was going on in 1948.

You are correct that both Jews and Arabs saw the UN partition plan as a first step to controlling ALL of the land called Palestine. Arabs targeted Jews and Vice Verca in an effort to scare the other side into submission.

This type of fighting , though, had been going on long before the partition plan. In-fact it is why the British backed down and gave the problem to the UN to handle.

It was the Arab Leauge who brought the level of violence to war in 1948. Had they not, we would have 2 states now called Palestine and Israel.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Czar
Doesnt Israel have a choice to end their illegal settlements?

sure..and lets say those chose to do it. How do you move 500, 000 people out of their homes and back inside the green line.

Not saying it cant be done, but it sure isn't easy.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: polm



You may be able to draw a few parrallels with the issue of Native Americans vs. Palestinians. But remember the Native Americans were the only ones living on this land when we came here. We deceptively slaughtered them and stole ALL their land.

BTW..someone DID draw it on a map. This was not land that was ever "up for grabs" . Palestine already had a ruling body (The British) . The Arabs and Jews living there were BOTH invited to stay there by the British.

The Jews were not invited to stay as such, more Jews were invited to move to the land. If the Jews who were there had been allowed to stay, but immigration hadn't been allowed, it might have been different.

Where would you have sent the immigrating jews ? back to the Nazis ?

 

[Lonyo]

To America, where many Jews went anyway. We could have just sent the extra to America (which was less than had already gone there I believe)

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Just wanted to add another comment regarding the title of the thread: If this was simply a case of Occupation vs suicide bombing, I'd agree that the Palestinians are not justified, but the situation is far more than a simple Occupation. This is an occupation, annexation, cultural domination, and elimination of Palestinians/Palestine. At one time Israelis and Palestinians lived together peacefully, then as a result of the various wars since 1948 they became split and Israel has been moving increasingly towards a Jewish state only relegating non-Jews to a lesser Second Class, Apartheid Part 2.

So Israel has non-Jews as citizens. I wonder if the Palestinians would allow Jews as citizens in their proposed state? Judging by their neighboring Arabs, I'd say the prospects aren't high.

Also, comparing Israeli Arabs to South Africans black takes a lot of nerve. There are Israeli Arabs in Israel?s government and they are fully protected under Israel?s constitution.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
To America, where many Jews went anyway. We could have just sent the extra to America (which was less than had already gone there I believe)

There was no land available here to create a state for the Jewish People.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Czar
Doesnt Israel have a choice to end their illegal settlements?

sure..and lets say those chose to do it. How do you move 500, 000 people out of their homes and back inside the green line.

Not saying it cant be done, but it sure isn't easy.

but isnt it something they should do, like the suicide bombings are something the palestinians should stop ?

 

[Bulk Beef]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
To America, where many Jews went anyway. We could have just sent the extra to America (which was less than had already gone there I believe)

So I take it your answer to my question above is no.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Czar
Doesnt Israel have a choice to end their illegal settlements?

sure..and lets say those chose to do it. How do you move 500, 000 people out of their homes and back inside the green line.

Not saying it cant be done, but it sure isn't easy.

but isnt it something they should do, like the suicide bombings are something the palestinians should stop ?

Yes. I think the settlers hold a lot of power in their hands. They should come back behind the 67 borders willingly. But I can understand why they are not so willing. They were given land, money, and big tax breaks from the Israely govt. to move there. Now they have made homoes, raised families, etc. on the land. They wont give it up easily. Unfortunately they will have to be forced off. This is something the Israely government CAN do. But not Sharon's government. Basically it will take some political reform on Israel side to make this happen. It all comes back to the Israely people electing a more liveral leadership, which wont happen under the current onslaught of terror.

The Palestinans should stop suicide bombing. But we can understand why they dont. Just like the settlers, they are driven by their humanity. Unfortunately the leadership in Palestine is doing NOTHING to stop the bombs. In fact they make the bombs. The terrorist groups are not democratically elected. Noone has been democratically elected as a Palestinian leader, ever.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Lonyo
To America, where many Jews went anyway. We could have just sent the extra to America (which was less than had already gone there I believe)

There was no land available here to create a state for the Jewish People.

I think I'm going to give up right there (partly cos I'm going to bed)
Maybe they didn't even need to create a state, just have people immigrate, as over a million Jews already had. I remember a few days ago a post about an article saying that we could make a state of New Israel. It was written in 2001, and if someone thought there was space then, 50 years ago there almost certainly would be land that could be used for this purpose. How much had the US population increased by since the 1940's? There's enought space for all that increase in population, surely there was the land back then that could have had Jews settle. No space just seems such a stupid comment. With the prominent, successful US Jews, they might have been able to but some land, of the US could have set up something if they were really that bothered, and they seemed to be. Look where it got them now by creating Israel? In a whole heap of trouble.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Czar
Doesnt Israel have a choice to end their illegal settlements?

sure..and lets say those chose to do it. How do you move 500, 000 people out of their homes and back inside the green line.

Not saying it cant be done, but it sure isn't easy.

but isnt it something they should do, like the suicide bombings are something the palestinians should stop ?

Yes. I think the settlers hold a lot of power in their hands. They should come back behind the 67 borders willingly. But I can understand why they are not so willing. They were given land, money, and big tax breaks from the Israely govt. to move there. Now they have made homoes, raised families, etc. on the land. They wont give it up easily. Unfortunately they will have to be forced off. This is something the Israely government CAN do. But not Sharon's government. Basically it will take some political reform on Israel side to make this happen. It all comes back to the Israely people electing a more liveral leadership, which wont happen under the current onslaught of terror.

The Palestinans should stop suicide bombing. But we can understand why they dont. Just like the settlers, they are driven by their humanity. Unfortunately the leadership in Palestine is doing NOTHING to stop the bombs. In fact they make the bombs. The terrorist groups are not democratically elected. Noone has been democratically elected as a Palestinian leader, ever.

But actually nearly all of the settlers are extremists, they belive that Israel should be the same as the original Israel was, and therefor the Palestinians must be removed. Same is said about the Palestinian extremists who carry out most of the sucide bombings, only with a different excuse.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Lonyo
To America, where many Jews went anyway. We could have just sent the extra to America (which was less than had already gone there I believe)

There was no land available here to create a state for the Jewish People.

I think I'm going to give up right there (partly cos I'm going to bed)
Maybe they didn't even need to create a state, just have people immigrate, as over a million Jews already had. I remember a few days ago a post about an article saying that we could make a state of New Israel. It was written in 2001, and if someone thought there was space then, 50 years ago there almost certainly would be land that could be used for this purpose. How much had the US population increased by since the 1940's? There's enought space for all that increase in population, surely there was the land back then that could have had Jews settle. No space just seems such a stupid comment. With the prominent, successful US Jews, they might have been able to but some land, of the US could have set up something if they were really that bothered, and they seemed to be. Look where it got them now by creating Israel? In a whole heap of trouble.

Do you really think the people of America would have accepted giving up land to create a Jewish state ?

IMHO the Jews deserved a state, as well as the Arabs. They deserved it on the land called Palestine. And both states should have been created by the UN plan of 1947. This would be the case if not for the Arab attack from Egypt, Jordan, etc. in 1948.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Czar
Doesnt Israel have a choice to end their illegal settlements?

sure..and lets say those chose to do it. How do you move 500, 000 people out of their homes and back inside the green line.

Not saying it cant be done, but it sure isn't easy.

but isnt it something they should do, like the suicide bombings are something the palestinians should stop ?

Yes. I think the settlers hold a lot of power in their hands. They should come back behind the 67 borders willingly. But I can understand why they are not so willing. They were given land, money, and big tax breaks from the Israely govt. to move there. Now they have made homoes, raised families, etc. on the land. They wont give it up easily. Unfortunately they will have to be forced off. This is something the Israely government CAN do. But not Sharon's government. Basically it will take some political reform on Israel side to make this happen. It all comes back to the Israely people electing a more liveral leadership, which wont happen under the current onslaught of terror.

The Palestinans should stop suicide bombing. But we can understand why they dont. Just like the settlers, they are driven by their humanity. Unfortunately the leadership in Palestine is doing NOTHING to stop the bombs. In fact they make the bombs. The terrorist groups are not democratically elected. Noone has been democratically elected as a Palestinian leader, ever.

But actually nearly all of the settlers are extremists, they belive that Israel should be the same as the original Israel was, and therefor the Palestinians must be removed. Same is said about the Palestinian extremists who carry out most of the sucide bombings, only with a different excuse.

Your'e exactly right ! They are both brainwashed by their leadership. The ONLY WAY to get the settlers to return home is by force. It will be a hard price to pay for peace. Sharon WONT do it. Suicide Bombings WONT do it. Political Reform will. That reform will only come via Israeli Democracy. IMHO.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Czar
Doesnt Israel have a choice to end their illegal settlements?

sure..and lets say those chose to do it. How do you move 500, 000 people out of their homes and back inside the green line.

Not saying it cant be done, but it sure isn't easy.

but isnt it something they should do, like the suicide bombings are something the palestinians should stop ?

Yes. I think the settlers hold a lot of power in their hands. They should come back behind the 67 borders willingly. But I can understand why they are not so willing. They were given land, money, and big tax breaks from the Israely govt. to move there. Now they have made homoes, raised families, etc. on the land. They wont give it up easily. Unfortunately they will have to be forced off. This is something the Israely government CAN do. But not Sharon's government. Basically it will take some political reform on Israel side to make this happen. It all comes back to the Israely people electing a more liveral leadership, which wont happen under the current onslaught of terror.

The Palestinans should stop suicide bombing. But we can understand why they dont. Just like the settlers, they are driven by their humanity. Unfortunately the leadership in Palestine is doing NOTHING to stop the bombs. In fact they make the bombs. The terrorist groups are not democratically elected. Noone has been democratically elected as a Palestinian leader, ever.

But actually nearly all of the settlers are extremists, they belive that Israel should be the same as the original Israel was, and therefor the Palestinians must be removed. Same is said about the Palestinian extremists who carry out most of the sucide bombings, only with a different excuse.

Your'e exactly right ! They are both brainwashed by their leadership. The ONLY WAY to get the settlers to return home is by force. It will be a hard price to pay for peace. Sharon WONT do it. Suicide Bombings WONT do it. Political Reform will. That reform will only come via Israeli Democracy. IMHO.

both sides need to change what they do if there is ever going to be peace between them, the current administration in Israel wont do anything and the "current" administration of the Palestinians cant do anything.
Its going to be extremely hard for them to change but it must happen, thats why all diplomatic talk is better than whats going on there right now.

 

[polm]

both sides need to change what they do if there is ever going to be peace between them, the current administration in Israel wont do anything and the "current" administration of the Palestinians cant do anything.
Its going to be extremely hard for them to change but it must happen, thats why all diplomatic talk is better than whats going on there right now.

So how do you change the leadership ?

I dont know how you create new leadership in Palestine.

But I DO know how to do it in Israel. It is called Democracy. If you convice the majority of Israelis that Negotiations will get them somewhere, they WILL elect a leader to do just that.

But as long as they are scared they will NOT elect anyone besides Sharon and his Right-Wing government.

How do you convice the Israelis ? I think by stopping the Suicide Bombs you would have the best chance.