RANT: Israeli Occuptaion vs. Suicide Bombing is not Tit for Tat !

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It's not like if you reversed everything and put the Jews in the Bantustans the Israelis have created and the Palistinians in tanks the Jews wouldn't be blowing up their kids too. Each is what he is by accident and each would be what the other is under the same circumstances.

So, if I reading this correctly, you are saying that had the situation been reversed and Israeli's taught their children hatred of the Palestinians and that it's a great honor to commit murder, Israeli?s would be doing the same thing. Well, duhh! What does that prove?

No one is saying that Palestinians are inherently bad people. It is their society, which turns some of them into murderous psychopaths, that's the problem.

 

[polm]

The Palestinian people not only have the right to reject the current Occupation, they have an Obligation IMHO.

The problem is that supporting Terrorist groups, and supporting Suicide Bombing, ONLY strengthens the Right Wing govt. in Israel that continues to pursue Occupation.

The terrorist groups are VERY VERY aware of this.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: polm
The Palestinian people not only have the right to reject the current Occupation, they have an Obligation IMHO.

The problem is that supporting Terrorist groups, and supporting Suicide Bombing, ONLY strengthens the Right Wing govt. in Israel that continues to pursue Occupation.

The terrorist groups are VERY VERY aware of this.

The Israely Govt. have NO option other than to strenthen the IDF control over territory when there are Suicide attacks against Israely civilians. NO CHOICE. This point is NOT arguable IMHO.

The Terrorist groups, on the other hand, are not forced to send suicide bombers. They choose to. Now why do they do this ? Do they think it will stop the ocupation ? NO. They just want an excuse to kill more Jews.

 

[sandorski]

Well, what you gonna do. Israel doesn't want people suicide bombing them, understandable. Palestinians want some form of self determination, understandable.

Israel uses their military to try and prevent suicide bombing, understandable. Palestinians don't have a military so they strap bombs on their chests, ?. I left that as a question mark for a reason, what choice do they have?

If Israel wants peace, then they are going to have to make some concessions to the Palestinians. The problem with that is magnified by the fact that Israel has been encouraging settlements in lands they have no business being in(occupied territories). Giving Palestinians a homeland and autonomy within it may not stop suicide bombings, but the current situation only perpetuates more bombing anyway, so what do they have to lose? Both sides are acting like idiots, to try and place the blame on the Palestinians simply because of their methods is to perpetuate a Myth of Israeli innocence.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Well, what you gonna do. Israel doesn't want people suicide bombing them, understandable. Palestinians want some form of self determination, understandable.

Israel uses their military to try and prevent suicide bombing, understandable. Palestinians don't have a military so they strap bombs on their chests, ?. I left that as a question mark for a reason, what choice do they have?

If Israel wants peace, then they are going to have to make some concessions to the Palestinians. The problem with that is magnified by the fact that Israel has been encouraging settlements in lands they have no business being in(occupied territories). Giving Palestinians a homeland and autonomy within it may not stop suicide bombings, but the current situation only perpetuates more bombing anyway, so what do they have to lose? Both sides are acting like idiots, to try and place the blame on the Palestinians simply because of their methods is to perpetuate a Myth of Israeli innocence.

once again let me say I am NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY OCCUPTAION, OR SOME MYTH ABOUT ISRAELI INNOCENCE.

What I am saying is this: The Palestinians DO have other methods for rejecting occupation. Peaceful protest alone would have convinced the International Community to up the pressure on Israel LONG AGO . Plus the Israeli people would not be scared into electing the Right Wing govt leaders they do elect.

Dont you see...if the bombs stopped. The Israelis would stop being so scared, and start voting for leaders who will negotiate better that Sharon has. The world would stop sypothizing with Israel and start DEMANDING results.

The bombs are NOT helping their cause. The bombs dont stop the IDF.

How can you justify a method that only brings greater distance between the Palestinians and their goal of freedom ?

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Well, what you gonna do. Israel doesn't want people suicide bombing them, understandable. Palestinians want some form of self determination, understandable.

Israel uses their military to try and prevent suicide bombing, understandable. Palestinians don't have a military so they strap bombs on their chests, ?. I left that as a question mark for a reason, what choice do they have?

If Israel wants peace, then they are going to have to make some concessions to the Palestinians. The problem with that is magnified by the fact that Israel has been encouraging settlements in lands they have no business being in(occupied territories). Giving Palestinians a homeland and autonomy within it may not stop suicide bombings, but the current situation only perpetuates more bombing anyway, so what do they have to lose? Both sides are acting like idiots, to try and place the blame on the Palestinians simply because of their methods is to perpetuate a Myth of Israeli innocence.

Don't you realize how close we were to a strong Labor government this election ? It was in our hands, and then the bombs went off in TelAviv.

 

[Moonbeam]

DBL Quote:

No one is saying that Palestinians are inherently bad people. It is their society, which turns some of them into murderous psychopaths, that's the problem.
-------------------------------
Yup but it's the Jews who have created the nature of that society. The point is that if the palistinians treated the Jews in exactly the same way as they treat the palistinians, it would be the isralis you would be calling psychopaths. No people are born psychopaths. It is conditions that creat that.

 

[Moonbeam]

PS: This would be easy to demonstrate. Give the Palisinians tanks and rockets and a powerful military force and they will use that and not their kids. Simple, see?

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
DBL Quote:

No one is saying that Palestinians are inherently bad people. It is their society, which turns some of them into murderous psychopaths, that's the problem.
-------------------------------
Yup but it's the Jews who have created the nature of that society. The point is that if the palistinians treated the Jews in exactly the same way as they treat the palistinians, it would be the isralis you would be calling psychopaths. No people are born psychopaths. It is conditions that creat that.

The Jew's created the nature of that society ? That is B.S. The failure of Palestininan society is NOT SOMEONE ELSES FAULT

Moonebeam..at what point do you expect people to take responsiblity for their own actions ?

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
PS: This would be easy to demonstrate. Give the Palisinians tanks and rockets and a powerful military force and they will use that and not their kids. Simple, see?

We know EXACTLY what they would do. The same thing they did when they had Rockets, Tanks, etc. in 1948 .

They would not try to drive the jews out of occupied territory...they would try to drive them into the sea.

You know this. History has proven it.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
DBL Quote:

No one is saying that Palestinians are inherently bad people. It is their society, which turns some of them into murderous psychopaths, that's the problem.
-------------------------------
Yup but it's the Jews who have created the nature of that society. The point is that if the palistinians treated the Jews in exactly the same way as they treat the palistinians, it would be the isralis you would be calling psychopaths. No people are born psychopaths. It is conditions that creat that.

The Jew's created the nature of that society ? That is B.S. The failure of Palestininan society is NOT SOMEONE ELSES FAULT

Moonebeam..at what point do you expect people to take responsiblity for their own actions ?

When it's actually THEIR actions, and not the interference of other powers (The UN, the British etc) in the past that cause these problems.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
DBL Quote:

No one is saying that Palestinians are inherently bad people. It is their society, which turns some of them into murderous psychopaths, that's the problem.
-------------------------------
Yup but it's the Jews who have created the nature of that society. The point is that if the palistinians treated the Jews in exactly the same way as they treat the palistinians, it would be the isralis you would be calling psychopaths. No people are born psychopaths. It is conditions that creat that.

The Jew's created the nature of that society ? That is B.S. The failure of Palestininan society is NOT SOMEONE ELSES FAULT

Moonebeam..at what point do you expect people to take responsiblity for their own actions ?

When it's actually THEIR actions, and not the interference of other powers (The UN, the British etc) in the past that cause these problems.

So it isn't them putting the bomb on ?

It isn't them walking into the crowded cafe full of innocent children ?

Your telling me that it is the fault of someone else ?

 

[mrCide]

DBL: way to get down to the issue by pointing out something that has nothing to do with the discussion

typical. i'm not here to discuss/argue about my website.

polm: i'm not justifying the suicide bombers, and you're latter posts are better written than your first, which makes it seem like everything would end of suicide bombing stopped (ie; occupation), and my point was that it 99% will not, just will end expansion. sorry for the rash comment in my first post.

 

[polm]

for the millionth freakin time...this is not a thread about who's right and who is wrong. They are both at fault on different levels.

I JUST WANT TO SEE THE BLOODSHED STOP.

The only way is to get a governement elected in Israel who is willing to Negotiate. Sharon is not the man for the job. He tried the hard line approach, and obviously it didnt work.

Arafat must also be removed from power. He, like Sharon, only gains strength through a continuation of the violence. Therefore his interests are in the wrong place. History has proven this.

To get a left wing government elected the Israelis need to either stop being afraid, or be strong enough to look beyond the fear. Obviously asking them to look beyond the fear is impossible. The Palestinians cant look beyond the fear, I cant, and neither can the Israelis.

The only way to keep Israelis from fearing for their lives is to STOP THE SUICIDE BOMBINGS.

Once they are calm they will be willing to elect leaders like Amram Mitzna. These leaders are ready to get out of the settlements. To negotioate, etc.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
DBL Quote:


-------------------------------
Yup but it's the Jews who have created the nature of that society. The point is that if the palistinians treated the Jews in exactly the same way as they treat the palistinians, it would be the isralis you would be calling psychopaths. No people are born psychopaths. It is conditions that creat that.

One only needs to research a little history to see where your theory falls apart. Are the Israeli's responsible for Palestinian uprisings against Jordan and Lebanon led by Arafat?

Do you blame England and France and other European countries for the rise of the Nazi's? Same logic.

 

[Lonyo]

If your country was invaded, half the land given to people who made up 1/3 or less of the population and came from another part of the world, what would you do? What it they slowly forced you to give up more and more of your land and make thousands of your people live in refugee camps? What if they destroyed YOUR home so thay they could settle and expand? Would you sit back and watch, or would you get hell of a frustrated and want to do something to get back at them in any way you could? If you were a Palestinian, would you try and reason with people, talking like people have been for many years? The talking hasn't led to much of a solution yet, so what are the 'common' people going to do? The send suicide bombers in.

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: sandorski
Well, what you gonna do. Israel doesn't want people suicide bombing them, understandable. Palestinians want some form of self determination, understandable.

Israel uses their military to try and prevent suicide bombing, understandable. Palestinians don't have a military so they strap bombs on their chests, ?. I left that as a question mark for a reason, what choice do they have?

If Israel wants peace, then they are going to have to make some concessions to the Palestinians. The problem with that is magnified by the fact that Israel has been encouraging settlements in lands they have no business being in(occupied territories). Giving Palestinians a homeland and autonomy within it may not stop suicide bombings, but the current situation only perpetuates more bombing anyway, so what do they have to lose? Both sides are acting like idiots, to try and place the blame on the Palestinians simply because of their methods is to perpetuate a Myth of Israeli innocence.

once again let me say I am NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY OCCUPTAION, OR SOME MYTH ABOUT ISRAELI INNOCENCE.

What I am saying is this: The Palestinians DO have other methods for rejecting occupation. Peaceful protest alone would have convinced the International Community to up the pressure on Israel LONG AGO . Plus the Israeli people would not be scared into electing the Right Wing govt leaders they do elect.

Dont you see...if the bombs stopped. The Israelis would stop being so scared, and start voting for leaders who will negotiate better that Sharon has. The world would stop sypothizing with Israel and start DEMANDING results.

The bombs are NOT helping their cause. The bombs dont stop the IDF.

How can you justify a method that only brings greater distance between the Palestinians and their goal of freedom ?

It depends on how you look at it. When someone hurts you your first thought is how do I get revenge. How to I get retribution, how do I punish my tormentor. Following that line of thought you can easily find a willing stream of Palestinians who want to strike a blow, any blow towards the enemy even if it means losing thier own life. I am sure you would find many American who would be willing to strike a blow at Al Qaeda even if it meant losing thier own life. That doesn't make it right, but it gives the powerless a weapon against thier enemy and that is a drug that many will take.

You say that the Israeli government has no choice but to increase the stranglehold on the territories due to the suicide bombings. Is that really true? Do you not think Sharon and his ilk are cynical enough and extreme enough to deliberately follow a course that they know will never bring Israel true peace and security but will simply continue the conflict and rack up the body count? Look at the body count pre Sharon and after. and tell me that is all due to the Palestinians. While thier may not be moral equivalency between the terrorists and the IDF, there sure is cause and effect and to ignore that is to ignore reality. Kill 100 terrorists, thier will be 100 more in thier place, put a lock on towns and villages and you simply get more volunteers for Hamas, kill Palestinians civillians even unintentionally on a regular basis = more terrorists. If the Israeli government really wanted security they would evacuate the settlements and deploy the IDF along the borders while seriously building that seperation fence. No Palestinians in Israel, no terrorism. But no, that would involve too many compromises and it would look like a defeat.

They are both doing the same thing. Suicide Bombings are stratefically unwise, but they provide the people with a weapon. Increased military force is strategically self defeating but they provide the impression of being tough/accomplishing something even if they are really just prolonging the conflict.

Rant all you want, but the only thing that will bring this conflct to an end is when both sides feel the price in blood has been too high, and we aren't even close to that yet. Less than 6 thousand people have been killed on both sides so far, and more than that are killed in car accidents each year in Israel.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: mrCide
DBL: way to get down to the issue by pointing out something that has nothing to do with the discussion

typical. i'm not here to discuss/argue about my website.

polm: i'm not justifying the suicide bombers, and you're latter posts are better written than your first, which makes it seem like everything would end of suicide bombing stopped (ie; occupation), and my point was that it 99% will not, just will end expansion. sorry for the rash comment in my first post.

Im sorry, but when I rant I tend to lose focus.

Of course an end to suicide bombings would not bring immediate results. But look where we were before the last bombing:

No attacks since Nov 21.

Israelis had upcoming elections and for the first time they were actually considering Mitzna as PM.

The Likud scandle (1.5 mil from foreign support to Sharon) promised to give us, at least , a blanace in the Knesset.

Then the TelAviv bombs go off.

Now the Israelis are too scared to vote for Labor. It is an element of human nature we cannot ask them to dismiss. They are scared for their lives. They need to hide bhind the "Big Guns" to feel safe.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: mrCide
DBL: way to get down to the issue by pointing out something that has nothing to do with the discussion

typical. i'm not here to discuss/argue about my website.

Well, it does demonstate what you consider to be the meanings of the words "fact" and "proof" which is relavent to the discussion, especially when you accuse others of being ignorant to the facts.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
If your country was invaded, half the land given to people who made up 1/3 or less of the population and came from another part of the world, what would you do? What it they slowly forced you to give up more and more of your land and make thousands of your people live in refugee camps? What if they destroyed YOUR home so thay they could settle and expand? Would you sit back and watch, or would you get hell of a frustrated and want to do something to get back at them in any way you could? If you were a Palestinian, would you try and reason with people, talking like people have been for many years? The talking hasn't led to much of a solution yet, so what are the 'common' people going to do? The send suicide bombers in.

You really need to study the history of Palestine a little better.

There was no INVASION. No land was taken before the war of 1948.

Do you know the history ? Do you know what the 47 Partition looked like ? Do you know who attacked who in 1948 ?

Noone has been "talking" for years.

The "common people" do not send Suicide Bombers. Terror groups force youngsters to do this through simple brain washing techniques (sp?) .

EDIT: it was no more "their" country than it was the Jewish peoples.

 

[ThePresence]

Some people seem to forget that there never was a Palestinian Country. It was British, Jordainian, Turkish, Etc. But waddever, I dont get involved in these threads anymore. Most people here are so fvcking clueless about this situation.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Some people seem to forget that there never was a Palestinian Country. It was British, Jordainian, Turkish, Etc. But waddever, I dont get involved in these threads anymore. Most people here are so fvcking clueless about this situation.

So educate them. And me .. please.

I know it is frustrating. I know it is hard to go over and over this issue.

But that is all we can do. We live in a country where the Media controls our minds (and in-turn everything else) .

We must continue to try and educate people about the truth.

It is your obligation.

 

[mrCide]

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Some people seem to forget that there never was a Palestinian Country. It was British, Jordainian, Turkish, Etc. But waddever, I dont get involved in these threads anymore. Most people here are so fvcking clueless about this situation.

So educate them. And me .. please.

I know it is frustrating. I know it is hard to go over and over this issue.

But that is all we can do. We live in a country where the Media controls our minds (and in-turn everything else) .

We must continue to try and educate people about the truth.

It is your obligation.

he's bias, so i tend to ignore what he says. when we speak of palestine, just becuase no one drew it on a map doesn't mean it didn't exist, do we say that native indians never lived here because WE never defined their country? give me a break.

anyhow, carry on.

 

[mrCide]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: mrCide
DBL: way to get down to the issue by pointing out something that has nothing to do with the discussion

typical. i'm not here to discuss/argue about my website.

Well, it does demonstate what you consider to be the meanings of the words "fact" and "proof" which is relavent to the discussion, especially when you accuse others of being ignorant to the facts.

sure, because trying to make money is the same as a political argument, give it up, it's a stupid excuse.

 

[polm]

Originally posted by: mrCide

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Some people seem to forget that there never was a Palestinian Country. It was British, Jordainian, Turkish, Etc. But waddever, I dont get involved in these threads anymore. Most people here are so fvcking clueless about this situation.

So educate them. And me .. please.

I know it is frustrating. I know it is hard to go over and over this issue.

But that is all we can do. We live in a country where the Media controls our minds (and in-turn everything else) .

We must continue to try and educate people about the truth.

It is your obligation.

he's bias, so i tend to ignore what he says. when we speak of palestine, just becuase no one drew it on a map doesn't mean it didn't exist, do we say that native indians never lived here because WE never defined their country? give me a break.

anyhow, carry on.

You may be able to draw a few parrallels with the issue of Native Americans vs. Palestinians. But remember the Native Americans were the only ones living on this land when we came here. We deceptively slaughtered them and stole ALL their land.

BTW..someone DID draw it on a map. This was not land that was ever "up for grabs" . Palestine already had a ruling body (The British) . The Arabs and Jews living there were BOTH invited to stay there by the British.