Ramos and Compean

[Tab]

Sept. 4, 2007 | Two years ago, in the Texas desert southeast of El Paso, two U.S. Border Patrol agents fired 15 bullets at a suspected drug dealer who was fleeing on foot toward the border. The man, a Mexican national, was hit once in the buttocks but made it across the Rio Grande. The agents who fired their weapons, Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, were sentenced to more than a decade in prison for firing on an unarmed man and then trying to cover up the crime.

For the prosecutors and the jury, the shooting of Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila near Fabens, Texas, was a clearly unlawful use of force. But the conviction of Ramos and Compean was just the beginning of the agents' story. Within months, they had become the center of a dubious political crusade that would energize the furthest reaches of the right, dominate one of CNN's most popular news programs, and persuade a quarter of the U.S. House of Representatives -- and one prominent Democratic senator -- to reject the findings of a federal court.

With the help of reporters and activists promoting -- and embellishing -- the defense's version of the case, the two convicted agents were transformed into martyrs for the battle against illegal immigration. Instead of rogue officers who shot a fleeing, unarmed suspect and then lied about it, they became stand-up cops who were forced to shoot an armed drug dealer and then sent to prison by a legal system run amok. After they went to prison in January 2007, they even became the tragic heroes of a country song called "Ramos and Compean."

Nearly 400,000 people have signed a petition demanding a presidential pardon for the agents. There are two bills to pardon them pending in Congress, one with more than 100 cosponsors, including five Democrats.


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How did Ramos and Compean get reinvented as right-wing heroes? The answer lies in the way Americans get their information, from a fragmented news media that makes it easier than ever to tune out opposing views and inconvenient truths. When people seek "facts" only from sources with which they agree, it's possible for demonstrable untruths to enter the narrative and remain there unchallenged. The ballad of Ramos and Compean is a story that one side of America's polarized culture has gotten all wrong and that much of the other side -- and the rest of the country -- has never even heard.

Federal prosecutions of law enforcement agents are not undertaken lightly. "No prosecutor ever wants to be in a position of prosecuting a cop or a federal agent," says Johnny Sutton, U.S. attorney for the Western District of Texas, whose office prosecuted Ramos and Compean. "They're our co-workers, they're our friends, we represent them in court ... But when one steps over the line and commits a serious crime, it's very important that they be held accountable ... [and] most agents would say what these guys did was outrageous."

Source - Salon.com

This has been floating around the web, here and one of my co-workers was talking about it recently. I'm really surprised how far it's got but now it's time to squash this stupid myth and let justice prevail.

 

[Infohawk]

I'm with the right on this one.

If there's one place you should be able to shoot people it's at the border. "Stop or I'll shoot" is fair game isn't it? Sounds like the guy was a drug dealer.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I'm with the right on this one.

If there's one place you should be able to shoot people it's at the border. "Stop or I'll shoot" is fair game isn't it? Sounds like the guy was a drug dealer.

Why does it matter if it's on the border? Was does it matter if they're "mexican national"?

I guess if you aint' an American you got no rights

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I'm with the right on this one.

If there's one place you should be able to shoot people it's at the border. "Stop or I'll shoot" is fair game isn't it? Sounds like the guy was a drug dealer.

Why does it matter if it's on the border? Was does it matter if they're "mexican national"?

I guess if you aint' an American you got no rights

I'm with you on this one. That kind of comment is something, if I heard it while having a discussion in person, I'd just steer it away from politics at that moment because this person has (in my view) a sick vision of what justice is and that can't be reconciled.

 

[Infohawk]

I think countries have a right to protect their border. Crossing an international border without authorization is a big deal. The perp had a chance to stop but he didn't take it.

 

[yllus]

If that's what they did, then they should be in jail.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Tab

Sept. 4, 2007 | Two years ago, in the Texas desert southeast of El Paso, two U.S. Border Patrol agents fired 15 bullets at a suspected drug dealer who was fleeing on foot toward the border. The man, a Mexican national, was hit once in the buttocks but made it across the Rio Grande. The agents who fired their weapons, Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, were sentenced to more than a decade in prison for firing on an unarmed man and then trying to cover up the crime.

For the prosecutors and the jury, the shooting of Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila near Fabens, Texas, was a clearly unlawful use of force. But the conviction of Ramos and Compean was just the beginning of the agents' story. Within months, they had become the center of a dubious political crusade that would energize the furthest reaches of the right, dominate one of CNN's most popular news programs, and persuade a quarter of the U.S. House of Representatives -- and one prominent Democratic senator -- to reject the findings of a federal court.

With the help of reporters and activists promoting -- and embellishing -- the defense's version of the case, the two convicted agents were transformed into martyrs for the battle against illegal immigration. Instead of rogue officers who shot a fleeing, unarmed suspect and then lied about it, they became stand-up cops who were forced to shoot an armed drug dealer and then sent to prison by a legal system run amok. After they went to prison in January 2007, they even became the tragic heroes of a country song called "Ramos and Compean."

Nearly 400,000 people have signed a petition demanding a presidential pardon for the agents. There are two bills to pardon them pending in Congress, one with more than 100 cosponsors, including five Democrats.


Site Pass Presented by



How did Ramos and Compean get reinvented as right-wing heroes? The answer lies in the way Americans get their information, from a fragmented news media that makes it easier than ever to tune out opposing views and inconvenient truths. When people seek "facts" only from sources with which they agree, it's possible for demonstrable untruths to enter the narrative and remain there unchallenged. The ballad of Ramos and Compean is a story that one side of America's polarized culture has gotten all wrong and that much of the other side -- and the rest of the country -- has never even heard.

Federal prosecutions of law enforcement agents are not undertaken lightly. "No prosecutor ever wants to be in a position of prosecuting a cop or a federal agent," says Johnny Sutton, U.S. attorney for the Western District of Texas, whose office prosecuted Ramos and Compean. "They're our co-workers, they're our friends, we represent them in court ... But when one steps over the line and commits a serious crime, it's very important that they be held accountable ... [and] most agents would say what these guys did was outrageous."

Source - Salon.com

This has been floating around the web, here and one of my co-workers was talking about it recently. I'm really surprised how far it's got but now it's time to squash this stupid myth and let justice prevail.

Getting shot in the ass wasn't much of a deterrent


How can an agent shoot 12 times and miss? That's the real crime.

 

[PokerGuy]

Article on left-wing salon.com, no surprise on how it leans. While a lot of things are unclear about what happened out there, the facts are that the guy was an illegal alien caught smuggling 800 pounds of drugs across the border.

I'm going to sign the petition as well, they should be pardoned.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I'm with the right on this one.

If there's one place you should be able to shoot people it's at the border. "Stop or I'll shoot" is fair game isn't it? Sounds like the guy was a drug dealer.

You are such a far right winger

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Tab

Sept. 4, 2007 | Two years ago, in the Texas desert southeast of El Paso, two U.S. Border Patrol agents fired 15 bullets at a suspected drug dealer who was fleeing on foot toward the border. The man, a Mexican national, was hit once in the buttocks but made it across the Rio Grande. The agents who fired their weapons, Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, were sentenced to more than a decade in prison for firing on an unarmed man and then trying to cover up the crime.

For the prosecutors and the jury, the shooting of Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila near Fabens, Texas, was a clearly unlawful use of force. But the conviction of Ramos and Compean was just the beginning of the agents' story. Within months, they had become the center of a dubious political crusade that would energize the furthest reaches of the right, dominate one of CNN's most popular news programs, and persuade a quarter of the U.S. House of Representatives -- and one prominent Democratic senator -- to reject the findings of a federal court.

With the help of reporters and activists promoting -- and embellishing -- the defense's version of the case, the two convicted agents were transformed into martyrs for the battle against illegal immigration. Instead of rogue officers who shot a fleeing, unarmed suspect and then lied about it, they became stand-up cops who were forced to shoot an armed drug dealer and then sent to prison by a legal system run amok. After they went to prison in January 2007, they even became the tragic heroes of a country song called "Ramos and Compean."

Nearly 400,000 people have signed a petition demanding a presidential pardon for the agents. There are two bills to pardon them pending in Congress, one with more than 100 cosponsors, including five Democrats.


Site Pass Presented by



How did Ramos and Compean get reinvented as right-wing heroes? The answer lies in the way Americans get their information, from a fragmented news media that makes it easier than ever to tune out opposing views and inconvenient truths. When people seek "facts" only from sources with which they agree, it's possible for demonstrable untruths to enter the narrative and remain there unchallenged. The ballad of Ramos and Compean is a story that one side of America's polarized culture has gotten all wrong and that much of the other side -- and the rest of the country -- has never even heard.

Federal prosecutions of law enforcement agents are not undertaken lightly. "No prosecutor ever wants to be in a position of prosecuting a cop or a federal agent," says Johnny Sutton, U.S. attorney for the Western District of Texas, whose office prosecuted Ramos and Compean. "They're our co-workers, they're our friends, we represent them in court ... But when one steps over the line and commits a serious crime, it's very important that they be held accountable ... [and] most agents would say what these guys did was outrageous."

Source - Salon.com

This has been floating around the web, here and one of my co-workers was talking about it recently. I'm really surprised how far it's got but now it's time to squash this stupid myth and let justice prevail.

Personally, I have no probblem with out border patrol agents shooting drug smugglers.

The victim was given a pardon on his drug smuggling to testify against the agents and used THAT opportunity to bring even more drugs into the country.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Corbett
Personally, I have no probblem with out border patrol agents shooting drug smugglers.

The victim was given a pardon on his drug smuggling to testify against the agents and used THAT opportunity to bring even more drugs into the country.

That's what I have a problem with. It appears both sides did some wrong. Why side with the drug dealer?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Uh, you left out the part about Compean thinking that the guy had a gun.

You let city cops who think they see a gun light up a guy 50 times off the hook, but someone who shoots an illegal on the run gets 13 years?

Sounds fair to me.

 

[ProfJohn]

Perhaps Bush should grant them clemency and let them out of jail passed on time served.

If he waits till his last day they will have served two years in prison.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Uh, you left out the part about Compean thinking that the guy had a gun.

You let city cops who think they see a gun light up a guy 50 times off the hook, but someone who shoots an illegal on the run gets 13 years?

Sounds fair to me.

Yeah I have been following this story for awhile now. These guys were doing their damn job and instead of getting rewarded, they got punished.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Perhaps Bush should grant them clemency and let them out of jail passed on time served.

If he waits till his last day they will have served two years in prison.

That outcome wouldn't offend me.

It may be because I'm a lawyer (and used to accepting certain legal principles that may be counter-intuitive), but it seems entirely clear to me that what these agents did is a crime, and a fairly serious one. Police officers simply don't have the right to shoot suspects in the back unless there's some clear evidence that they pose a threat to the safety of others. Shooting a fleeing drug dealer in the back is a non-starter legally, and the fact that this occurred near the border is irrelevant to the issue. Their efforts to cover up the shooting are also serious offenses for law enforcement personnel.

I wouldn't be bothered to see these guys serve only two years, but I sure as hell wouldn't want them EVER to serve as law enforcement officers again.

 

[DealMonkey]

Perhaps their biggest supporters are from Texas, where shooting a guy in the back is celebrated? Furthermore, no one seems to ponder the notion that these two border agents aren't having the book thrown at them so much for shooting a guy in the back, but rather for the subsequent cover-up? I mean come on, think about it for two seconds. Geeze.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Perhaps their biggest supporters are from Texas, where shooting a guy in the back is celebrated? Furthermore, no one seems to ponder the notion that these two border agents aren't having the book thrown at them so much for shooting a guy in the back, but rather for the subsequent cover-up? I mean come on, think about it for two seconds. Geeze.

First, he was shot in the butt I believe, not the back.

Second, the man was attempting to smuggle large ammounts of illegal drugs into the country. I have no problem with our border patrol shooting drug smugglers in the ass.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Perhaps their biggest supporters are from Texas, where shooting a guy in the back is celebrated? Furthermore, no one seems to ponder the notion that these two border agents aren't having the book thrown at them so much for shooting a guy in the back, but rather for the subsequent cover-up? I mean come on, think about it for two seconds. Geeze.

First, he was shot in the butt I believe, not the back.

Second, the man was attempting to smuggle large ammounts of illegal drugs into the country. I have no problem with our border patrol shooting drug smugglers in the ass.

In your back-ass-wards bizzarro world, just where would a man's butt be if not in back?

 

[badnewcastle]

They should be pardoned... The border patrol get shot at too. I have no problem with them shooting back once in a while.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
They should be pardoned... The border patrol get shot at too. I have no problem with them shooting back once in a while.

That's the problem - they weren't being shot at.

The shooting itself was problematic at best, but to me the cover-up is probably an even bigger issue here. Their behavior was simply unacceptable for law enforcement officers.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Perhaps Bush should grant them clemency and let them out of jail passed on time served.

If he waits till his last day they will have served two years in prison.

That outcome wouldn't offend me.

It may be because I'm a lawyer (and used to accepting certain legal principles that may be counter-intuitive), but it seems entirely clear to me that what these agents did is a crime, and a fairly serious one. Police officers simply don't have the right to shoot suspects in the back unless there's some clear evidence that they pose a threat to the safety of others. Shooting a fleeing drug dealer in the back is a non-starter legally, and the fact that this occurred near the border is irrelevant to the issue. Their efforts to cover up the shooting are also serious offenses for law enforcement personnel.

I wouldn't be bothered to see these guys serve only two years, but I sure as hell wouldn't want them EVER to serve as law enforcement officers again.

This.

People need to understand that if those who are supposed to uphold the law break the rules themselves, they should be punished. This protects the population from police excesses.

I have no problem with them shooting the drug dealers but not if they break the rules doing so and a cover up is only compounding the issue.

 

[Ozoned]

Link

The link is a compilation of the governments records on their cases. It gives you 1/2 of the information you need to make an informed decision. Of course, Ramos and Compean lack the financial resources to counter this in any fashion, so how can one make an informed decision on this case?

How does a trained federal agent shoot 12 times and miss, unless he is trying to miss?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Perhaps their biggest supporters are from Texas, where shooting a guy in the back is celebrated? Furthermore, no one seems to ponder the notion that these two border agents aren't having the book thrown at them so much for shooting a guy in the back, but rather for the subsequent cover-up? I mean come on, think about it for two seconds. Geeze.

First, he was shot in the butt I believe, not the back.

Second, the man was attempting to smuggle large ammounts of illegal drugs into the country. I have no problem with our border patrol shooting drug smugglers in the ass.

Oh yes, shooting a person in the ass while they flee is so much different, Corbett.

It's quite telling though that you chose to completely ignore my second statement - I'll take that as placid acceptance of the subsequent cover-up. Unless you'd care to clarify yourself? I mean by your logic, Nixon was an all right dude. Stickin' it to some Democrats (totally deserved it, right?) and then lying and covering it up (eh, no big deal either).

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Link

The link is a compilation of the governments records on their cases. It gives you 1/2 of the information you need to make an informed decision. Of course, Ramos and Compean lack the financial resources to counter this in any fashion, so how can one make an informed decision on this case?

How does a trained federal agent shoot 12 times and miss, unless he is trying to miss?

On average American law enforcement officers hit their targets 15% of the time, and that includes suspects who aren't moving. Hitting a fleeing suspect under stressful circumstances would be tough for anyone.

Obviously these men had the opportunity to defend themselves at trial and failed to convince the jury. It doesn't seem they are even challenging the fact that they failed to report this incident, making it a lot easier for a jury to conclude that they knew they had acted improperly in the original shooting.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Link

The link is a compilation of the governments records on their cases. It gives you 1/2 of the information you need to make an informed decision. Of course, Ramos and Compean lack the financial resources to counter this in any fashion, so how can one make an informed decision on this case?

How does a trained federal agent shoot 12 times and miss, unless he is trying to miss?

Compean was a damn shitty shot? Ramos (AKA "Nacho") a much better shot?

Compean fired approximately 12 rounds from his service pistol; Ramos fired approximately two times from his service pistol striking the victim. Ballistics testing confirmed that the bullet which struck the victim was from Ramos? service weapon.