rambus will kill ddr

[MadRat]

Its easy for people to confuse interleaved memory with dual-channel transfers. Interleaved memory uses a single channel but times the access of the memory to make use of idle time on the controller. Real world increase in performance is between 7-30%, depending on the implementation. Four-way interleaving won't even make a dent against the performance of true dual-channel DDR, since the channel is nearly saturated with two-way interleaving.

There are no true dual-channel implementations of DDR out there as far as its been published, unless somebody knows something the experts don't. RDRAM memory is used in pairs on the Intel 850 chipset to take advantage of true dual channel access.

 

[ToBeMe]

From "Memory Roundup"....................

• In the high-end memory arena, Rambus ist still the best Intel option. Future Rambus chipsets, will fully support PC1066 and PC1200 memory with a 533 MHz system and memory clockrate. A performance projection for SPECfp would mean that a 2.53 GHz Pentium 4 with PC1066 memory would reach over 900. As a comparison: currently a 2.2 GHz Pentium 4 using PC800 gives a SPECfp basic value of 777.
  
  Samsung's roadmap expects to have the first PC1200 Rambus components ready by mid year. Apart from which, the Koreans have come up with a 32.bit RIM module which will be available early this summer. These will double the bandwidth of Dual-Channel systems to 8.5 Gbytes/second. Rambus themselves doubled the Transfer speed using a new design with more data per clock-cycle: QRSL (Quad Rambus Signal Level). Both will allow use of singal modules as opposed to the present double module requirement.

 

[BeauJangles]

Fight! Fight! Fight!


*looks around* oh crap!


*runs for the door*

 

[Deskstar]

Someone in this thread will know the answer to this question relating to the future course of memory technology:

Since current video card memory is as fast as 2.8ns DDR, why cannot DDR motherboard memory use chips that are faster than the current 6 or 7 ns chips to improve DDR memory bandwidth and speed (currently about 2.7GB/s (PC2700)?

 

[MadRat]

<<Since current video card memory is as fast as 2.8ns DDR, why cannot DDR motherboard memory use chips that are faster than the current 6 or 7 ns chips to improve DDR memory bandwidth and speed (currently about 2.7GB/s (PC2700)?>>

Because the length of the traces between memory bank and controller is the limiting factor.

 

[zzzz]

<< Apart from which, the Koreans have come up with a 32.bit RIM module which will be available early this summer. >>


Would I be able to use this ram in Th7-2?

 

[fkloster]

<< Would I be able to use this ram in Th7-2? >>



Not a chance...future 32bit & 64bit datapath serial memory parts will require different trace routes than current mobos supply?

 

[ElFenix]

maybe i'm wrong here... but nforce is dual channel DDR right now and intel is working on a dual channel i845.

what would really kill rambus is an open serial memory standard. i wouldn't be surprised if one was being worked on right now.

 

[jhu]

A P4 2.2 northwood .13u is a technological marvel

i beg to differ. power4, alpha, and possibly itanium are technological marvels.

 

[Pabster]

fkloster wrote:

"Ummm, Pabster, care to explain to the reluctantly listening population @ Anandtech how DDR memory is 'walking all over' current RDRAM implemintations?"

DDR is "walking all over" the current RDRAM implementations for several reasons. Today's PC800 modules just don't cut it. PC1066 is vaporware, and PC1200 may well never make it to the press. You want a "real world" example? How about the fact that sending your shiny new 1.6A or 1.8A to 2.4+ is silky smooth with DDR, but a real crapshoot with RDRAM? I realize that RDRAM, by and large, offers better performance at a lower CPU clock (though we could debate i850's shortcomings), but those who are recommending RDRAM solutions today are sending people down the wrong path. Today's PC800 modules, by and large, are not PC1066 capable. And I still reiterate that a dual-channel DDR solution will offer superior bandwidth and less latency than a PC1066 implementation. We'll just have to wait and see, eh?

A lot of this is my opinion, and last I knew, that was the purpose of a forum. If you're looking for "facts", you're at the wrong place.

"Dual-Channel DDR is 'just-around-the-corner' of what year? PC2100 is equal (met its match?) to PC-1066 in what way? DDR-II will be a reality and make 64bit PC-1200 obsolete? Please elaborate with hard facts and less 'running of the mouth' ...perhaps you could educate some people instead of looking vague and desperate to get a point across..."

Let's be a bit realistic. No one really believed i845-D would arrive in as short of time as it did, nor that it would perform nearly as well as it has proven to. Intel's dual-channel DDR solutions will be here before you know it, possibly simultaneous if not preempting PC1066. If you have facts to the contrary, by all means, put them out

"Serial memory occupies todays most advanced personal pcs and it makes no sense? Could you please provide some facts about your findings that PC-1066 melts when not actively cooled? What do you consider 'ridiculous' thermal dissapation when comparing to parrallel memory heat dissapation?"

You chastise me for my opinions, then start with your own? Where is it a proven fact that serial memory "occupies todays most advanced personal PCs..."? Tom's "demonstration" of a PC1066 platform with a cooling fan literally atop the RIMMs wasn't an exaggeration. Anyone who is currently running an RDRAM solution can attest to the heat RDRAM produces. Do you think the factory-installed heat spreaders are there for looks? I consider it a bit ridiculous that RDRAM requires heat spreaders and a fan to run in acceptable operating temperatures. DDR, even at ridiculous FSBs, runs cool to the touch. But that's all just opinion, right?

Look, I'm not out to "bash" RDRAM, although I despise RAMBUSt with a passion. I've owned and used a host of RDRAM solutions over the past year and just don't see anything great about 'em. And I can't recommend today's RDRAM solutions when DDR (IMHO) offers a clearly superior platform. To each their own, I suppose.

 

[exharr]

<< With Intel dropping them and AMD not using them, it's going to be a tough task without a platform to run on no matter how superior the technology is. >>


Cyrix 3 could use it! Yeah, man. Imagine it. A 1 gig cyrix 2 and a gig of RDRAM!!!

 

[LXi]

Excuse me for going off topic a bit.

<<why do you say that athlon xp performs way better than northwood?

some proof?

before it was all about money.

for the same amount of money... amd did out perform pentium.
but the story changed once northwood came out>>

While you kept on rambling, you completely forgot the people who don't overclock! It's safe to say a majority of people, ouside of and including Anandtech, do not overclock. And for those people, the $210 2000XP is a clear winner over a $330 Northwood 2.0AGHz. So yes, the AthlonXP is a better processor than Northwood in a MHz for MHz standpoint, well, make it Performance Rating for MHz. I don't see how you can refute that.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< How about the fact that sending your shiny new 1.6A or 1.8A to 2.4+ is silky smooth with DDR, but a real crapshoot with RDRAM? >>


.....Beg to differ here Pabster! The top two O/C's with the Northwoods have been on i850 boards. Specifically, the TH7II's with some of that PC1066 "Vaperware" you spoke of in one (it was marked "E.S." and PC800 RD in the other............ I too can attest that my two TH7II's, one of which is home to a 1.6 Northwood @ 2.4 and the other home to a 2.2 Northwood @ 2.8 as we speak and neither over 1.65V........... Both utilize PC800 RD and both have no problems running at the FSB they are presently at! I ran Prime 95 on the 1.6 overnight (7PM - 7 AM) Tuesday with absolutely no problems at all and plan to do the same on my 2.2 @ 2.8 this weekend! As for heat, it may run hot.................but to be honest, I've taken it out within seconds of shutting down the system, and if it's not to hot to handle with bare fingers...............it's not running anywhere close to to hot.............

"Rambus" the company may suck, but, RDRAM as an archetechture is sound...........and I agree with Flockster, serial memory will be the way of the near future be it RD or a revised or new archetechture...............

 

[joe4324]

I'm not trying to be a fanboy here or anything, merely trying to be objective.

But didnt the 1800+ for the most part keep up with a 2.0ghz P4?
if so then wouldnt a 2000+ do the same to a 2.4?

even if the 2.4 still pulled ahead slightly (and believe me that is all we are talking about when we are comparing this crap "tiny" inprovments) no boddy seems to be talking about oc'ing the 2000+ granted it wont overclock nearly as much as the northwood, but when your getting on average 20-30% more done per clock cycle you dont need too.

just food for thought.

 

[ElFenix]

<< << How about the fact that sending your shiny new 1.6A or 1.8A to 2.4+ is silky smooth with DDR, but a real crapshoot with RDRAM? >>


.....Beg to differ here Pabster! The top two O/C's with the Northwoods have been on i850 boards. >>

thats anecdotal evidence. and still fits with the analogy that its a crapshoot with rdram. sometimes you win at craps, sometimes you win with rdram overclocking.

 

[ToBeMe]

<<

<< << How about the fact that sending your shiny new 1.6A or 1.8A to 2.4+ is silky smooth with DDR, but a real crapshoot with RDRAM? >>


.....Beg to differ here Pabster! The top two O/C's with the Northwoods have been on i850 boards. >>

thats anecdotal evidence. and still fits with the analogy that its a crapshoot with rdram. sometimes you win at craps, sometimes you win with rdram overclocking. >>


Anectdotal?????? Tell ya' what.........I have no bias with these.............I also have a P4S333 with Corsair XMS PC2700 DDR...............if you can show me clear, consise, factual evidence that a DDR system performs better overall and overclocks better overall.................I'll stop enorsing the P4's I sell coupled with i850's and RDRAM! I'd love to have a reason to, but, the fact is, at this point, the i850 TH7II's still outperform and overclock just as well as the DDR boards available...............if you have definate proof otherwise, please, present it...............

 

[Mavrick007]

Isn't this debate gone on a long while already. DDR and RDram have their own strengths and weaknesses. I don't think RDram will disappear so quickly especially when the prices are now getting low enough to compete with DDR. Yes, you hate Rambus, but don't overlook the technology involved with it. I've seen people getting a good overclock with both based on DDR and RDram. Alot of it has to do with luck you know, cause I've seen identical machines built with one P4 board or another and the range of overclocking is alot sometimes even with the same cooling and memory types.

The Athlon clock for clock has been beating out the P4 for awhile now. If you have to overclock your P4 to beat the Athlon, then it's not the stock performance that you're getting from the chip. The cost of the Athlon is still very competitive even compared to the Northwood at 0.13micron. Now when the Tbred comes out and you have something better to compare the Northwood to, we shall see what the outcome is going to be. I can't wait to see the next round in the match. It's a great time to be a computer enthusiast

 

[rockhard]

I just swapped out my 1.6A Northwood + GA8IRXP for my old 1.4gig TBird + A7V266E and the difference in multitasking is immediately obvious! :/
Ive still got the Northwood setup sitting here unused and it aint going to be retained for future use after seeing this
Everything on both rigs is identical yet when i have loads of windows open the Northwood opens Outlook a lot slower than the TBird.
Its instant on the TBird yet pauses half way through opening the Outlook window as if its waiting for something.
I really wanted the Northwood rig to be my main workstation, but after this i cannot justify it no more.

 

[Stark]

I bought some DDR memory yesterday. I have never spent a dime on RDRAM and don't have any plans to.

If consumers really do vote with their wallets, my vote has been cast.

 

[ElFenix]

<< Anectdotal?????? Tell ya' what.........I have no bias with these.............I also have a P4S333 with Corsair XMS PC2700 DDR...............if you can show me clear, consise, factual evidence that a DDR system performs better overall and overclocks better overall.................I'll stop enorsing the P4's I sell coupled with i850's and RDRAM! I'd love to have a reason to, but, the fact is, at this point, the i850 TH7II's still outperform and overclock just as well as the DDR boards available...............if you have definate proof otherwise, please, present it.............. >>

now you're changing your argument. nor did i say that DDR wasn't a crap shoot. simply that rdram was. thing with DDR is that the RAM won't limit your push from 100 to 133, unless you're completely dumb and buy PC1600.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< I just swapped out my 1.6A Northwood + GA8IRXP for my old 1.4gig TBird + A7V266E and the difference in multitasking is immediately obvious! :/
Ive still got the Northwood setup sitting here unused and it aint going to be retained for future use after seeing this
Everything on both rigs is identical yet when i have loads of windows open the Northwood opens Outlook a lot slower than the TBird.
Its instant on the TBird yet pauses half way through opening the Outlook window as if its waiting for something.
I really wanted the Northwood rig to be my main workstation, but after this i cannot justify it no more. >>


Cool.......sell it to me! I've got people coming in daily wanting one of these.

 

[ToBeMe]

<<

<< Anectdotal?????? Tell ya' what.........I have no bias with these.............I also have a P4S333 with Corsair XMS PC2700 DDR...............if you can show me clear, consise, factual evidence that a DDR system performs better overall and overclocks better overall.................I'll stop enorsing the P4's I sell coupled with i850's and RDRAM! I'd love to have a reason to, but, the fact is, at this point, the i850 TH7II's still outperform and overclock just as well as the DDR boards available...............if you have definate proof otherwise, please, present it.............. >>

now you're changing your argument. nor did i say that DDR wasn't a crap shoot. simply that rdram was. thing with DDR is that the RAM won't limit your push from 100 to 133, unless you're completely dumb and buy PC1600. >>


Well........I always buy Samsung RD and quite frankly, I've never had it limit me either! I'm not "changing my story"..........if someone asks what the best performing solution is for a P4 with the possibility of some overclocking room available, right now, by my own expierience, I have to go with the TH7II and RD. I'm also not saying that DDR is any worse thean RD or, any better.............IMHO, you can have "lemons" with both.........and exeptional results with both as far as overclocking, but, for now, performance wise, the RD systems are still on top! As soon as DDR shows it can beat RD when coupled with the P4's, I'll push it to those whom ask for the best performing P4 setup they can buy!

 

[rockhard]

<< Cool.......sell it to me! I've got people coming in daily wanting one of these >>


Heh, no need as where i bought it from have offered me a full refund under their 7 day cooling off period returns policy )
Seriously though, i see people with perfectly good rigs jumping on these 1.6A's - are they just hankering for playing with a new rig perhaps? This is going to happen all over again when Hammer ships. The market is going to be awash with second hand gear = cheap prices
Looks like im going to have a field day on second hand AMD gear if this keeps up
A 1.4 gig TBird can be had for next to nothing, and compared to the newer CPU's is a bargain IMO.