Rambus vs DDRI

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DX2Player

Senior member
Oct 14, 2002
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Actually by the time the RDRAM patent runs out Rambus will put out Yellowstone which should blow away RDRAM and DDR, at least as we know them today.

"Yellowstone enables customers to meet challenging power and cost targets, while providing backward compatibility to current industry standards. Initially demonstrated at three times the data rate of today's 1066 MHz RDRAM , Yellowstone is expected to achieve data rates of 3.2 to 6.4 GHz, enabling 50 to 100 GB/sec of memory system bandwidth. Yellowstone's architecture also enables pin count reduction and elimination of external termination resistors, further lowering overall system cost."

They are workign with Sony, Toshiba, and IBM to make Yellowstone and Redwood technologies

Here


SCALABLE TO 100 GB/sec BANDWIDTH!!!:D
 

HokieESM

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
798
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Dx2Player... yes, I've definitely kept abreast of "Yellowstone". Of course, it actually already exists.... and from what I understand, it essentially IS RDRAM with some major BUS improvements--especially the multi-channel issue. It will be interesting to see who patents it, and what the licensing fees are. As far as the scalability--I think the numbers they're showing are a BIT misleading. From what I understand, the whole idea of Yellowstone is to communicate with multiple chips--including CPUs. Of course, this isn't a BAD thing.... in fact, it might be VERY interesting to see four Banias processors on a motherboard instead of one ultra-fast serial processor. It would probably suit QUITE a few people better than a single CPU--especially if games and the like were multi-threaded. :) Most people don't have a need for a fast serial-processor (unfortunately, I do)--if their apps were multithreaded, things would be perfect for them.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
"RDRAM Vs. Dual DDR"
From the main page go to Ed Stroligo's article - 2/5/03

Dual DDR is coming, and the RDRAM advocates don't like it.

Understand The Real Matchup


Some RDRAM geektards have taken some Granite Bay benchmarks and are jumping up and down saying that dual DDR is a big disappointment and this proves RDRAM is better.

This article will explain why this arguments has some big holes in it and tell you what you need to look for to make an intelligent decision about the products.

DDR Runs Faster

There's something noteworthy about these RDRAM/DDR comparisons. They're always run at 133MHz.

What this does is strips away DDR's main advantage over RDRAM. It just can run at higher speeds than RDRAM.

You would be a fool to choose dual DDR over RDRAM if all you were going to do is run it at 133MHz.

No, you're going to run it at 180 or 200 or 220, or whatever you can get out of it. Whatever "whatever" is, it's going to be a lot faster than the 150ish speed you can get out of RDRAM.

That's the real-life comparison: not 133 versus 133.

Saying that 133 versus 133 is the only "fair" test is like a Mac user telling you to slow your processor down to 1.4GHz to test against his latest and greatest G4 processor.

Just like the RDRAM person, he'll say that this "fair" test will prove that the Mac G4 processor is more efficient cycle for cycle. In both cases, this is completely true and completely irrelevant in real life. Both the latest x86 processors and DDR run much faster in real life than in the test.

The first dual DDR PIV board a lot of overclockers will buy will be the Canterwood motherboards. There, the top default speed is 200MHz. You would be crazy to buy RAM for it and get anything less than PC3200 for it.

That's the point of real comparison for this audience.

DDR Write Performance

Before people send me this link, let me do it to myself: http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=50000346.

This page shows that while dual DDR does a little bit better than RDRAM in read operations, it does a lot worse in write and mixed read and write operations.

I have no reason to doubt the reviewer's measurements, but this is another one of those "completely true and completely irrelevant" numbers when you look at a real world situation.

Run that test at 200MHz, and the results will almost certainly turn into dual DDR doing a lot better than RDRAM in reads and a little worse in writes.

How Much Does Memory Matter?

If you look at the benchmarks in that article and compare performance between "fast" DDR 266 and 32-bit RDRAM, the performance difference in the games and real applications is: 2% or less.

Yes, a few of the SPEC ViewPerf tests shows greater differences, but those particular tests have a history of greatly exaggerating any differences between two platforms.

So a 60% difference in write speed hardly shows up in the real-world.

The point is not to make excuses for DDR; the point is to demonstrate that memory differences don't matter much in the real world, any which way.

If the FSB were kept at 133MHz, and the memory were somehow run at 200MHz at fast settings, I'd bet the dual DDR would look great in the memory benchmarks, but in the real world, instead of being a tiny bit slower than RDRAM, it would be a tiny bit faster instead.

So these memory articles, including this one, are much ado about little.

One Unanswered Question

What we don't know yet about dual DDR systems is how much improvement will occur when you run the FSB at very high speeds.

In short, given the same MHz, does running FSB and memory at 200MHz do better than, say, running FSB at 150MHz and memory at 200MHz?

When you increase the FSB, you expand the system bandwidth, which means that fast memory gets a chance to do some good. In Athlon systems, you have to increase the FSB to let faster memory do its job.

However, the PIV is a different beast.

In a single DDR channel PIV system, you can run memory faster than the FSB and have it do you good because the bandwidth from a single stick of DDR fits quite easily into the PIV's overall bandwidth.

Dual DDR is a different story. In theory, running a dual DDR system at 150MHz while running memory at 200MHz could create a bottleneck because memory bandwith approaches overall FSB bandwidth.

On the other hand, it may well not matter in real-life for a few possible reasons, most notably CPUs running at X speed just can't take advantage of extra bandwidth.

That's the result you need to see before you decide to buy a Canterwood-based system. If running at 200MHz FSB doesn't do anything for you, your best overclocking chance will likely be with a 133MHz PIV.

If running at 200MHz does make a considerable difference in performance, than the nod will go to the new 200MHz PIV, and overclocking them will likely be a considerably more difficult task.
Interesting . . . and controversial (as usual)
 

tbates757

Golden Member
Oct 5, 2002
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You aren't hounding RDRAM by acknowledging that its cost is extreme compared to DDR, which is true. RDRAM performs better, but when overclocking, DDR gives RDRAM a run for its money
 

HokieESM

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
798
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tbates... of course, unless the RDRAM is overclocked as well. And yes, some people can overclock RDRAM considerably.

But, in all honesty, that's comparing apples to oranges. I personally do NOT overclock--after I saw that most of my overclocked systems could NOT finish many of my FEM runs--which run at 100% CPU capacity for a week or more at a time. "Stability" has different meanings for different people--my overclocked systems could run Prime95 for three or four days--but had tremendous difficulty when I was running week-long FE models using 90% of system RAM at 100% CPU capacity.

Like I said--its all up to the user. I'm willing to bet that RDRAM or dual DDR is completely irrelevant to 99% of all users--because even for most gamers (which are the notorious ones for wanting the latest and greatest), you're much better off getting an i845PE and spending the difference getting a faster processor and/or a faster graphics card.

Anyhow. I'm just saying we need to keep ALL avenues open as FSB speeds increase. Now, it appears, that memory bandwidth is frequently the bottleneck in modern computing speeds--which was unheard of back in the P2 days. So any technological advance needs to be praised--no matter WHO is doing it (dual-DDR, RDRAM, new technologies such as Yellowstone and/or DDRII).
 

Ice9

Senior member
Oct 30, 2000
371
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Eh, none of this matters anyway.

Long term, all that will be left is RDRAM because the royalties for DDR are higher than they are for RDRAM. And the last 3 holdouts for paying royalties will now have to pay up since the infineon ruling. None of those 3 companies wants to see this go to the supreme court, since if they lose (which is likely), it'll cost them triple the damages.

For you DDR pimps: Enjoy it while you've got it. Since it won't be around much longer. The future is RDRAM and Yellowstone, despite whatever roadmaps you see today. DDR is just outta gas, and eventually they're gonna run out of band-aids to make it run faster/behave better/scale higher.

And what's this CRAP about RDRAM being "horribly expensive"? Just how much do you value your system ram, and just what percentage of money does it account for in your system? Geez. Get a clue.

-k
 

HokieESM

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
798
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0
Ice9: RDRAM is expensive. VERY. Look at the prices. AND I like/use/have RDRAM. 1GB of Kingston PC1066. At the time I bought it, it was nearly 1/2 of my system cost ($581 worth).

Ice... I'm also a BIG fan of RDRAM. I think its an excellent technology. All I've said is that we need to encourage BOTH sides to work hard... and let REAL competition settle this one. Or not settle it at all. DDR is a better solution *RIGHT NOW* for most "normal" users. PC2700 is VERY cheap at the moment--and teamed with i845PE, it makes an excellent buy. I personally believe that i850E and PC1066 is the BEST solution for a power "home user", Granite Bay or no Granite Bay. Most people are going to put in 512MB... and then (as others have pointed out), the cost difference washes out (GB motherboards are pricey, but the ram is cheap; vice versa for the i850E).

And I completely agree: Yellowstone--or something else of its type (I seriously doubt RAMBUS is the ONLY person looking into this)--will be the future of Intel chipsets. Maybe even AMD, once their processors actually need the memory bandwidth.
 

DX2Player

Senior member
Oct 14, 2002
445
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I once again would like to state that RDRAM is not horribly expensive unless you have to buy 512 pieces. I know I have show this twice already in this thread but once again for the thick headed.

Corsair 256MB PC2100 = $59 (I would also like to note this is not even the good DDR ram at only PC2100 that im comparing it with)
Samsung 256MB PC 1066 = $86

Difference = $27 for 256MB
Difference = $54 for 512MB

Oh no $54 dollors is just out of the question I dont think I would ever consider spending that much more OMG are they insane
How about next time you go to Best Buy you dont get that shitty game of the month instead.
Would you call your friend out of his mind if he had a game or two more than you, maybe even a game that he didnt really like.

And once again im being more than fare not even considering the price of chipset, whatever one you want.

Corsair 256MB DDR433 PC3500 = $96 Here
Why dont you biitch about the HORRIBLY expensive DDR433? Why not, well because the price difference really doesnt matter.
 

HokieESM

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
798
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Dx2Player.... its actually MUCH cheaper to buy PC2100 than you indicated:

256MB of Kingston PC2100 for $41 at Googlegear

Which makes the difference $45 for 256MB.

But I completely agree that its not outrageous for only 512MB. We're only looking at $90. IF memory bandwidth is critical to you. The BIG difference, in my opinion is buying an 845PE chipset motherboard (which is MUCH cheaper than an i850E motherboard), and buying PC2700. You'll have AT LEAST the $90... and you can go buy yourself a GF4 Ti4200 instead of a GF4 MX. Or another/a bigger hard drive. For some people who are building a $700 computer, $90 or $100 is a decent amount of money. Not to mention, you would probably benefit more from a faster processor, anyway.

I personally agree with you that for a gamer/photoshop user, the i850E is the LOGICAL choice. But for anyone else, its not. Even for the 'money is no object' people, its not the best choice--because they're going to go with something that will support more than 2GB of RAM.

Also, your tone is getting a bit out of hand. This is a discussion--not putting down people. Not to mention, I AGREE with you. So relax.

My whole point: if you're looking for a home user system with the best performance out there in stock trim, look no further than i850E. RDRAM prices have gone down relative to the DDR prices quite a bit... making them an even better choice (look at the prices six months ago versus today). Granite Bay is a WORKSTATION chipset made for WORKSTATIONS. The vast majority of REAL Granite Bay users are going to be sliding in 2GB of memory (and yes, there are people who need that) on a non-overclocked machine that is going to run at 100% CPU capacity a great deal of the time.

But if you're just doing Photo-chop at home or working on numerical simulations, or even playing games, go i850E.
 

DX2Player

Senior member
Oct 14, 2002
445
0
0
"There's something noteworthy about these RDRAM/DDR comparisons. They're always run at 133MHz."
Ya well no shiit, and guess what most people dont overclock.

"That's the real-life comparison: not 133 versus 133."
Yes it is, I have many friends with high tech computers. Most of them never overclock, the norm (even in the gamers world) is not overclocking. The norm is not building your own computer. Thus 133 vs 133 is the real-life comparison for most people. I dont even overclock its almost rediculas to, what im gonna get another 3 FPS from playing WC3? I overclock for the sake of overclocking when im board just to see what it can do, but then i put everything back to stock settings. The average person than is gonna want to most performance as is and not deal with FSB, Vcore, more fans, new heatsinks, lapping, and timings. You must sit back and understand that we here are the voices of the enthusiast, some more than others, and so the norm might not aply. Why do you think companies like Alienware are sucesfull, because most people, even gamers, dont want to screw around with it. Most people are ignorent, thats why they can get away with selling PC800 RDRAM in a $2500 Alienware computer and thats why the real-life comparision for people outside this forum is stock 133FSB.

"Some RDRAM geektards have taken some Granite Bay benchmarks and are jumping up and down saying that dual DDR is a big disappointment and this proves RDRAM is better."
Not saying GB sucks just saying that RDRAM doesnt suck either.

In fact this sort of irratates me, this Duel DDR vs RDRAM comparison is very unfair. I already said that SiS 655 chipset has taken the crown again, in fact if I were to build a new computer now thats probably what I would choose. But where was it 7 months ago when I was building a computer, oh wait it did not exsist till just a few weeks ago. What we have here is similar to current ATI vs Nvidia, ya the new FX card will probably beat the 9700 Pro but the 9700 Pro has been out for half a year already. And besides how long has RDRAM PC1066 been out already, longer than when I built my computer Im not shure but back in 2001 I think. So where is the respect.

Edit: I picked Corsair because anyone who is gonna buy BG board is gona probably buy Corsair or Crucial as indicated by the people themselvs here
Edit2: you also have a lapse in reasoning, even the money is no object people would not buy more than 512 if they know what they are doing, and secondly if money is no object then why would they care in the first place how much it is
Edit3: My case and everything in it cost less than a grand and 6 month later it can bearly be outprformed, (not including the CPU) I would say thats a hell of a price/performance ratio.
 

Compddd

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2000
1,864
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71
I run a p4 with 512 of 1066 rambus, I like it alot, but I'll go with the dual DDR 400 from intel when that comes out, but I read Rambus has a super fast rambus technology in development called Yellowstone, anyone know anything about that?
 

HokieESM

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
798
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0
I thought this thread could use a little more info. I pulled this article (Plasma Physics Performance Benchmarked) from Ace's Hardware. It describes why I, personally, like to use RDRAM. It also shows that the memory bandwidth afforded by PC1066 is HIGHLY important in computational problems--so people who "render" large CAD drawings, take note!!! I personally do something very similar to this--the plasma physics problem is solved by finite-element discretization... just as I solve my problems.

As far as Redwood and Yellowstone (two technologies in development by RAMBUS), their primary advantage is in scalability. One could use "regular old" PC1066--but use it at octuple or 16-tuple data rates--giving massive bandwidths. Of course, I'm sure they'll use the fastest memory technology available.

 

Loop2kill

Senior member
Jan 6, 2003
227
0
0
Here is my rig running pc1066 32bit of the samsung @ 160 fsb.
I couldnt be happier with my purchase. I was able to pick up the P4T533 for $50 and 2x256 mb of 32bit pc1066 for $120. Coupled with my ES P4 2.2A this thing is a pleasure to work with.

My sandra score

Anyway to post pics here?