RAM in a Gaming Server

[enzoslashslash]

(Nice Try Kensai ;D)

Interesting, rune, thats something I didn't think of. Would this apply with the Opterons? If so, the Opterons would seem like a viable solution for me.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

You know I cant really tell you that for sure. Fact is, memory timings and Mhz speed are overclocking settings. Which server boards lack. So while it does have the same memory bandwidth, tweaking memory to work at full bandwidth with it may be next to impossible. You could however purchase 4800 memory. The AMD board would force the memory to run at 2700 speeds (Or the nearest compatible divider). While not giving you MAXIMUM bandwidth, it would be a good boost. Now I do know of ONE exception:

The Foxconn NF4PIK8AA This board came out when the FX-51 processors were socket 940. It's still an nforce Pro 2200 chipset and has SLI capabilities. but it requires registered memory. Which means you wont find anything over 3200 memory. You could still get 3200 memory though, and underclock it as much as possible. And still have a lot of bandwidth. and in my opnion. The benefits reaped from moving to a 1 series opteron will negate the loss from not using 4800 memory. Of course if you can wait, 1 series opterons will be moving to 939. I believe in a year???? (Verification anyone??)

 

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Mind naming a Xeon board that lets you overclock? That sounds awesome.

Yeah, I wish my SuperMicro OCed. But alas, it don't.
Tas.

 

[imported_Kensai]

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
Mind naming a Xeon board that lets you overclock? That sounds awesome.

The Asus PC-DL is the most famed S603 overclocking board. The NCCH-DL is a very light OC board but the PC-DL tops it all.

 

[enzoslashslash]

Interesting rune, I will look into modifying the timings/FSB in server motherboards. I will post what I find. Thanks!

 

[thecoolnessrune]

np. I'd look into that Asus PC-DL. That sounds like a kickass idea. But the whole memory bandwidth thing would come into play considering it only has 8 GB of bandwidth.

EDIT. Found quite a large prob. with the Asus PC-DL. While it is an 800Mhz supporting 875P chipset, It only runs at 533Mhz. That is what this computer runs (2.533Ghz 533FSB no HT Northwood). That is 2100 memory speeds (Although Dell put 2700 in it just to make it seem advanced) For your information, thats the same thing Dell and a lot of other companies do today. The new prescotts come with DDR2 533 usually. However they can only support DDR2 3200 memory. Otherwise they just use a divider. Anyways, this means that memory bandwidth is only 4.2GB!!! Thats only 1050MB a memory module. Thats not too great. So I cant really say getting the Asus PC-DL is that great of an idea.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

hmmmmmmmmmmm just curious enzo. I play a beta game called Silver Knights (mech game that features both weopons and sword fighting). I looked in the restricted users list and a guy named enzo was there. And well your name is enzoslashslash. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. curious indeed. Did you play the game and cheat or somethin?

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Also another thing. The Higher the FSB the better. If you can get a MOBO that lets you lower the multiplier in order to raise the bus further then thats good on an intel. For instance take a 3.6Ghz P4 for expample (Prescott, HT, 800 FSB) If you run at the standard 200Mhz FSB at a 18x multi you get the standard 3.6 You also have the standard 8.6 GB/s memory bandwidth. But if you run a 258Mhz FSB at a 14x multi you still get a 3.6Ghz processor. BUT you now have 10.98GB/s of memory bandwidth. The only way to unlock a P4 that I know of is the CPU lock Free feature of some Asus MOBOs. This lets you bring the multiplier down to 14x. You wouldn't really have to worry about this on an AMD considering they already let you lower the multiplier.

 

[Greenman]

Is this going to be a rack mount server? If so you need to decide on what case your going to use first. If it's a 1u case, there are very few motherboards that will fit. If you plan on colocating this server somewhere they charge for rack space as well as bandwidth, so a 1u will save you money. I set up a game server about 6 months back, and there were no 939 boards that would fit in a 1u case. I ended up with a daul xeon board.
With a colacated server stability is everything, you don't want to have to drive over to the server farm because it's overheating from being clocked. If map load times matter that much use scsi drives, and 2 gigs of ram sure helps.
I could write a book about this, there was tons of stuff I never even thought about untill it became an issue, like when there was a write error and while fixing it I needed a file off the windows install cd, hard to stick that cd in the drive from 40 miles away. That time I learned to copy the whole cd to a folder on a local drive.

 

[enzoslashslash]

Sorry, rune, must be a different enzo

I plan on making it a rackmount server, for mobility in a server rackmount on wheels.

How about the Dual Opterons? Do they sound like a solid solution for underclocking? The cheapest are 1.6 gHz each with 400 mHz FSB. $178/pop

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Well one point to make:

1xx series Opteron is one processor
2xx series Opteron is one or two processors
8xx series Opteron is one, two, four, or eight processors.

Tell me EXACTLY what you want to run. i.e the games, how manye instances of the games, or something like that.

Like say you want to run UT2K4.
How many instances of the game would you run (i.e. 1 ONS 1 DM) or something like that?

With that info I can better help you out.

 

[enzoslashslash]

I was thinking of two AMD Opteron 246 SledgeHammer 400MHz FSB 1MB L2 Cache Socket 940(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103411)

Probably run a BF2 32 player map, a CS 1.6(16 players) and a CS:S(16 players). I really hope that that's enough processing power.
Then 1 GB - 2 GB of PC4000 OCZ.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

I did some research and crunched some numbers. Indeed 2 Opteron 246's would suffice. Even more preferable would be 2 Opteron 265's http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103553 The dual- core support would better handle the multiple instances of the games.

Secondly, I'd get this MOBO for 246's http://www.tyan.com/products/html/tigerk8w.html

Or this MOBO for the Dual core http://www.tyan.com/products/html/thunderk8w.html

In each case, I would get 4 GB (2GB per processor) of OCA Titanium Server Series memory in 1 gig modules.
http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/m...ocz_ddr_pc_3200_titanium_server_series

EDIT: I looked again at the above post of your. One important thing to remember about your memory. Servers (Opteron and Xeon systems) require ECC memory and are not compatible with the memory we put in our normal systems.
WARNING!! ECC memory is VERY expensive $350 per 512MB actually. To get 4GB you gonna be atleast $1200 just for memory

 

[enzoslashslash]

I'm not sure what brand of RAM you had in mind, but this ECC Registered RAM is $280/gig, which still is pretty expensive.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145476

Hmm... now I'm thinking, Opteron isn't meant to be a cheap solution, so all the problems that can potentially become of it will not be cheap.

How would this configuration handle these games (the one I mentioned earlier)
-AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Manchester 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Dual Core + OCZ PC4800 + Undecided Case/Motherboard

Overclock would help as well... hmmm...

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Well, yes and no. Whatever you choose, it must reach AT LEAST 2.7Ghz Which means even with the 4600+ you need a 300Mhz overclock. So it seems a tad slim.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
If it is a gaming server. then you wouldn't even need fast memory. Just high bandwidth. for that, you are better off with loose timings so you can get more bandwidth. i.e., 3200 memory at CAS 2 would perform worse that 3200 memory at CAS 3. because you need bandwidth, and the faster your timings, the lower the bandwidth.

Do you have anything to back that up?

For an AMD system: Theoretically, to get the most absolute bandwidth, you would purchase PC4800 memory like this You would then take this memory, run its latencies at the loosest timings, and underclock down as low as humanly possible. This would give you the max amount of bandwidth.

Or, you know, just get some PC3200, and run everything at stock speeds.

For an Intel system (not reccommended): Get memory like this and do the same as you would with the AMD.

 

[Tarrant64]

Umm..what's wrong with the raptors again? Can I see some benches?

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune

Originally posted by: enzoslashslash
Thanks for your input coolnessrune,

I have a few questions though; wouldn't underclocking the memory coupled with already loose timings make map loadings slower? I am also curious as to why you picked the type of RAM you picked (not OCZ, but PC4800 and PC8000). I am leaning to the Intel side of things (almost boxed in) because of my case requirements.

Also would SATA II or 10k Raptors be better for this job? Again, I have "heard" good things about Raptors. Someone Enlighten!

No remember, latency is how fast the memory can FIND things. Since map data is one chunk, once its was found, it would load it in a constant stream (where large bandwidth would kick in). Remember those numbers are in NANOseconds (in other words you are comparing 2 MILLIONTHS of a second to 3 MILLIONTHS of a second). So unless you are accessing LOTS of out of order, random files, the latency wouldn't be noticeable. It would take 3 nanoseconds instead od 2 nanoseconds to find the file, but would then load at a much higher bandwidth.

No, they are clock cycles. As in, 2 clock cycles, 2.5 clock cycles (2 one side, 3 another), or 3 clock cycles.

Secondly I chose PC4800 memory for AMD because that was the fastest made in the DDR specification.

The fastest DDR spec is PC3200.

TheCoolNessRune, Anandtech and Lost Circuits both have very good articles on this stuff.

 

[Tarrant64]

Originally posted by: Crescent13

Originally posted by: enzoslashslash
Hello all and thanks for reading!

From my understanding, you can get better throughput with DDR2 memory, but the timings on DDR2 are looser than standard DDR memory. I would like fast loading times for maps and such (BF2, Source Engine), but I do not want any jittering mid-game. Does anyone have any firsthand experience with this and would like to recommend a brand/type of RAM?

By the way, I am getting a Pentium D Dual-Core and some 76gB Raptors, just keep that in mind

No, you ARE NOT GETTING A PENTIUM D, and YOU ARE NOT GETTING 74GB Raptors. Do you have ANY IDEA how ABSOLUTLY HORRIBLE intels perform in gaming?!?!?!? Get a new SATA II drive, not an old raptor. latency is directly related to throughput, and DDR2 performs horribly. If you get an intel (which I pray that I can convince you otherwise), you will have to get DDR2, it is the only thing that is compatible. AMD uses DDR, and also performs about 4x faster (i'm not streching that, the most expensive amd x2 is 4x more powerful than the most expensive pentium D). PLEASE DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY!!!! If you want more proof just give me some time to find some articles.

EDIT: oh yeah, and welcome to the forums!

Last I checked, those 'old' raptors are still on top on a lot of benches. SATA II or not. Sure, SATA II is on top of 'some', but if ya check some articles/benches out, that 'old' raptor is still one of the fastest drives out there. If you can get over the lack of storage capacity(but what gaming server really needs that much space anyways?).

 

[enzoslashslash]

Ok, after some conderation, I think I have come up with a good solution.

2 gigs of PC3200 RAM- $200
Athlon X2 4200+ (possibly overclocked)- $473
74 gig Raptor- $180
$853
Which leaves me about $150 for a motherboard.

Comments/Suggestions anyone?

Also, This Guy seems to be in the same situation as me...

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune

Originally posted by: enzoslashslash
T

Secondly I chose PC4800 memory for AMD because that was the fastest made in the DDR specification.

The fastest DDR spec is PC3200.

Dude check Newegg.com its pretty clear that there are many more formats after 3200. The STANDARD for MOBOS is 3200. but there are plenty faster options.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Originally posted by: enzoslashslash
Ok, after some conderation, I think I have come up with a good solution.

2 gigs of PC3200 RAM- $200
Athlon X2 4200+ (possibly overclocked)- $473
74 gig Raptor- $180
$853
Which leaves me about $150 for a motherboard.

Comments/Suggestions anyone?

Also, This Guy seems to be in the same situation as me...

I dont think you'll be able to get enough performance out of it to run those 2 games but I would reccomend the DFI board so you can get as much an overclock as possible.

 

[enzoslashslash]

Well, do you think putting in $100 for a 4400+ would give me $100 worth of extra performance?

 

[Cerb]

nm

 

[Cerb]

Went w/ original...

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune

Originally posted by: enzoslashslash
Thanks for your input coolnessrune,

I have a few questions though; wouldn't underclocking the memory coupled with already loose timings make map loadings slower? I am also curious as to why you picked the type of RAM you picked (not OCZ, but PC4800 and PC8000). I am leaning to the Intel side of things (almost boxed in) because of my case requirements.

Also would SATA II or 10k Raptors be better for this job? Again, I have "heard" good things about Raptors. Someone Enlighten!

No remember, latency is how fast the memory can FIND things. Since map data is one chunk, once its was found, it would load it in a constant stream (where large bandwidth would kick in). Remember those numbers are in NANOseconds (in other words you are comparing 2 MILLIONTHS of a second to 3 MILLIONTHS of a second). So unless you are accessing LOTS of out of order, random files, the latency wouldn't be noticeable. It would take 3 nanoseconds instead od 2 nanoseconds to find the file, but would then load at a much higher bandwidth.

No, they are clock cycles. As in, 2 clock cycles, 2.5 clock cycles (2 one side, 3 another), or 3 clock cycles.

Secondly I chose PC4800 memory for AMD because that was the fastest made in the DDR specification.

The fastest DDR spec is PC3200.

TheCoolNessRune, Anandtech and Lost Circuits both have very good articles on this stuff.

Dude check Newegg.com its pretty clear that there are many more formats after 3200. The STANDARD for MOBOS is 3200. but there are plenty faster options.

Your exact words:
"Secondly I chose PC4800 memory for AMD because that was the fastest made in the DDR specification."

Emphasis added. There is no DDR specification beyond PC3200. Anything faster than PC3200 is beyond official specs. I didn't say there were not faster ones out there, but they aren't very useful for a server (actually, they aren't too useful in general past abour 250MHz, and that's just to keep it matched up if you OC and have to keep pace w/ the HT speed).