Raising the Debt Ceiling is NOT needed.

[GeezerMan]

They don't come from anywhere; they are going to China. Rich people can't be rich by paying anything more than $5,000 to $10,000 a year for labor jobs (per worker),... but, still charge the prices as if they were paying $45,000 a year for labor jobs (per worker).

Also, it is a total communist move to support unions and the American worker,... but, it's a not a total communist move to support the Chinese government by giving them more jobs to use to control their own people.

Thank you wealthy Americans.

Lot of truth in this. Fat cats, including fat cat republicans, love to take advantage of cheap labor, whether in China, or illegal labor. Multi national corps don't give a hoot about the American workers.

 

[brencat]

This thread...

< Poof! >

 

[GeezerMan]

Consumer demand. Not investment capital, not tax cuts, not mythical job creators, it's ultimately consumer demand that creates jobs. Dear Lord if there is only one thing people learn from the crappy state of our economy, please, please, please let it be this.

Yes, since our economy has been a consumer based economy, then it has to have a demand. The housing bubble created a large demand for home furnishings to fill those houses. Now that is gone, we need another demand, or how about a diverse economy with consumer demand and a return of some of the industrial jobs back to the USA. Probably not gonna happen.

 

[Throckmorton]

Yes, since our economy has been a consumer based economy, then it has to have a demand. The housing bubble created a large demand for home furnishings to fill those houses. Now that is gone, we need another demand, or how about a diverse economy with consumer demand and a return of some of the industrial jobs back to the USA. Probably not gonna happen.

Laying off government workers isn't going to increase consumer demand.

Even furloughs and temporary pay cuts are bad for the economy, but local and state governments have no choice. When I got furloughed from the county 1 day a month (~5% pay cut), I went from breaking even to not breaking even, so I stopped drinking at bars with my friends. Sure that was only about $15 a month but when you're in a small county with a bigger proportion of government workers it adds up to a lot.

 

[GeezerMan]

Laying off government workers isn't going to increase consumer demand.

Even furloughs and temporary pay cuts are bad for the economy, but local and state governments have no choice. When I got furloughed from the county 1 day a month (~5% pay cut), I went from breaking even to not breaking even, so I stopped drinking at bars with my friends. Sure that was only about $15 a month but when you're in a small county with a bigger proportion of government workers it adds up to a lot.

True but an economy can't prosper on govt jobs. It has to have private sector jobs

 

[Generator]

If we need to borrow 42 cents for every dollar to run this government, that is how much of percentage this government needs to be cut. Default now, show the courage this country deserves by ripping off the white sheet covering this economic corpse. The United States is a massive economy that can absorb this depression. But if our leaders continue to be bribed, vote present, and protect the status quo we are looking at a god damn revolution of despair.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Laying off government workers isn't going to increase consumer demand.

Even furloughs and temporary pay cuts are bad for the economy, but local and state governments have no choice. When I got furloughed from the county 1 day a month (~5% pay cut), I went from breaking even to not breaking even, so I stopped drinking at bars with my friends. Sure that was only about $15 a month but when you're in a small county with a bigger proportion of government workers it adds up to a lot.

The problem is that one can not build a foundation on straw/government workers.

The payment has to come from somewhere (ie. taxes/borrowing based on tax revenues).
Unless the government workers are going to pay 100% in taxes it is a net loss. Even using a multiplier of 4-1; you still have 4 government jobs that are only creating a private job. A waste of $$ for 3 government jobs.

Yes putting them out on the street is bad; but they themselves are not generating additional tax revenue.


One can not borrow their way out of debt; which is what the government has been hoping to do. It is in debt way over its head for that to method work.

Essentially the Dems were given their chance to make it (borrowing) work first in '09/10 - the stimulus.
What was stated would happen did not (finger pointing not accepted - it was a recovery using the $$ that was sold the the public), and the public took notice (change of ownership in the House and a close shave in the Senate); now in '11 an alternate method has to be tried; the original failed to deliver.

 

[werepossum]

Consumer demand. Not investment capital, not tax cuts, not mythical job creators, it's ultimately consumer demand that creates jobs. Dear Lord if there is only one thing people learn from the crappy state of our economy, please, please, please let it be this.

Three things. First, our economy is not all consumer demand. A lot of it is corporate demand to build capital to meet that demand, and a lot of it is government, legitimately building infrastructure and illegitimately seizing and redistributing wealth.

Second, one cannot rebuild an economy by having government seize and redistribute wealth. At the very best, government has to consume some portion of that wealth in the taking and the redistributing. Thus the private sector, which must needs support the government, always ends up with less in total when government redistributes wealth. This is true even in the best case, but much more so when we have a government that funds everything from the Robert Byrd Train Station (where no trains actually stop) to studies on Chinese prostitutes' drug habits.

Third, a great portion of what is termed consumer consumption is no longer produced in this country, so stimulating consumer demand merely accelerates the flood of wealth leaving our nation. Again, we can redistribute the pie, but inevitably it gets smaller when we do so.

As Geezerman suggests, we must return wealth-producing jobs to this country. Our only alternatives are massive bankruptcy and collapse, or ceasing to be a consumer nation, working to support government which in turn supports us. There was a telling point when Oprah was visiting a nice home in Denmark and looking around, she asked "Where do you keep all your stuff?" The homeowner proudly answered "We don't have stuff." The more of our GDP government consumes, the less disposable income each individual has, on average. Some people find this an acceptable tradeoff and some don't, but it's a fact of life.

 

[GeezerMan]

If we need to borrow 42 cents for every dollar to run this government, that is how much of percentage this government needs to be cut. Default now, show the courage this country deserves by ripping off the white sheet covering this economic corpse. The United States is a massive economy that can absorb this depression. But if our leaders continue to be bribed, vote present, and protect the status quo we are looking at a god damn revolution of despair.

I agree. Kicking the can down the road if you are the kicker is great. Not so great if you have to pick up the can later on.

 

[werepossum]

If we need to borrow 42 cents for every dollar to run this government, that is how much of percentage this government needs to be cut. Default now, show the courage this country deserves by ripping off the white sheet covering this economic corpse. The United States is a massive economy that can absorb this depression. But if our leaders continue to be bribed, vote present, and protect the status quo we are looking at a god damn revolution of despair.

I don't think we can or should do that. Our actual systemic deficit is probably more like 20% or 25%; right now revenues are down because we're still in a severe recession and still losing jobs. Shutting down 42% of our government spending in any meaningful time frame would surely kick us into a real depression because of the ripple affect on people who depend on that government spending. I'd love to see federal government cut back to 20% of GDP, but over time, with a combination of growth, restoration of ALL Clinton-era tax rates, and real cuts in spending.

To achieve that, America has to cut way back on its military spending. Close all those foreign bases - if those countries really need us, they can keep them ready to open at need. Curtail our military adventures - I'll support my President in attacking Iraq or Libya, but few people think we can truly afford such things until we get our financial house in order, and even fewer people really think either war was necessary. Concentrate on building high speed, high capacity shipping and air cargo capacity to project force when needed, and have our troops guarding our borders for awhile. Cut WAY back on discretionary spending; this is not a time to be studying the drug habits of Chinese prostitutes, or building treadmills to discover the energy expenditures of shrimp, or building cotton gin museums, or bridges to nowhere. Cut WAY back on welfare programs; a poor person in rural Mississippi has needs completely different from a poor person in Newark, so these things need to be handled at the state level.

But cutting 42% of our government spending at one whack, let alone in a severe recession, would be disastrous.

 

[Demo24]

If we need to borrow 42 cents for every dollar to run this government, that is how much of percentage this government needs to be cut. Default now, show the courage this country deserves by ripping off the white sheet covering this economic corpse. The United States is a massive economy that can absorb this depression. But if our leaders continue to be bribed, vote present, and protect the status quo we are looking at a god damn revolution of despair.

It's 36 cents, and your 'plan' would throw the world into another depression. Defaulting on this debt not only means higher interest rates for us (why in the hell would you want us to pay MORE for the debt we have), but higher rates for everybody else putting more pressure on already tense economies.

 

[fskimospy]

It's 36 cents, and your 'plan' would throw the world into another depression. Defaulting on this debt not only means higher interest rates for us (why in the hell would you want us to pay MORE for the debt we have), but higher rates for everybody else putting more pressure on already tense economies.

Sadly, this thread is a powerful statement against democracy. Apparently significant numbers of Americans actually believe like the OP. True insanity.

 

[sandorski]

Whether we need to increase the debt ceiling or not is MOOT. We need to do something, where Obama looks bad; that's it. Nothing more.

PALIN 2012!!! Woooo!!

this and only this.

This News wrap up covers it

 

[Generator]

We are in a depression right now! Like I said remove the white sheet, remove the vale from your eyes and behold the depression right under your nose. The country must have the courage to walk into the depression or have it run over us 18 months from now.

What is happening right now will go down in history is a country that time and time again made the situation worse. About the credit agencies, don't make me laugh. These institutions have failed the world time and time again. The United States is the largest economy in the world if we were dropped down to double A rating then guess what?! Double AA would be the new Tripple AAA status.

But whatever, your kicking the can down the road will fail. The bankers will not allow growth to ever happen to grow out of this unrealized depression. THERE SOLE LIVELIHOOD IS TO PILLAGE THIS ECONOMY AND LEAVE RUBBLE BEHIND. They will not stop, they can't stop. Its what they do and they have incentive to keep doing it.

Courage. This is what this is all about. The people like congress does not have it. This thread shows it plain as day. When the pain comes watch the people resort to murder. The cowards, this isn't WW2 you can't murder your depression away this time.

 

[theeedude]

Fine, Republicans, you win. Let's not raise the debt ceiling. Let's immediately cut government 40&#37;, and see where the chips fall. Something tells me the small government crowd will start complaining very quickly.

 

[Generator]

There is nothing to win but a short period of time.

 

[theeedude]

There is nothing to win but a short period of time.

Screw that, let's shut er down like the teabaggers want.

 

[dmcowen674]

Obama will not make the decisions as to what gets paid and what does not. If we know one thing about this Fool, Bobo, the Post Turtle, he does not like to make decisions.

This ought to be fun to watch.

Hopefully whatever he decides hurts you the most

That will be fun to watch

 

[Engineer]

Screw that, let's shut er down like the teabaggers want.

I'm starting to have that same feeling. I know it's going to kick the US completely in the ass but if they really, really want it...then so be it.

 

[GeezerMan]

Sadly, this thread is a powerful statement against democracy. Apparently significant numbers of Americans actually believe like the OP. True insanity.

What we have morphed into is closer to fascism than a republic. Today, we have unrestrained capitalism, with the big banks having a powerful influence and revolving door into govt. The Dodd–Frank Act is not strong enough to fight it.

I agree with Nouriel Roubini:
"We need to go all the way and implement the kind of restrictions between commercial banking and investment banking that existed under Glass-Steagall."

 

[Icepick]

Tax the rich. Let them shoulder some of the burden and pay their fair share.

 

[mchammer187]

I'm starting to have that same feeling. I know it's going to kick the US completely in the ass but if they really, really want it...then so be it.

Exactly. To be honest this is gonna hurt blue collar Americans and the poor the most. It will be painful for the middle class an inconvenience for the upper middle class and pretty much nothing at all for the mega rich.

 

[jman19]

Exactly. To be honest this is gonna hurt blue collar Americans and the poor the most. It will be painful for the middle class an inconvenience for the upper middle class and pretty much nothing at all for the mega rich.

There's a reason why being rich never goes out of style... the broke always get screwed the most. Just the way of nature in general, really.