Radiation

[Cogman]

We just took a feild trip out to the INEEL, got to tour the facilities, see 30 foot pools of water with Fuel rods stored at the very bottem, Very cool. Anyways, the tour guide who was fairly good brought up a good point. We could get rid of many common deises that kill arought 9000 each year, like food poisoning, and reduce many storage costs if we were allowed to vacuum pack and radiate the food with gamma particals.

He further explain that the same method is used in most clean enviroments like to steralize (sp?) gloves and such for doctors. The methods also used in other countries like germany on many food produces, like milk. But in the US, it is not used.

So why not? Is the public too scared of the word Radiation that they dont want to chance having anything they interact with radiated? Just for referance, he compaired that to going to the dentist where they shoot a xray beam through the body, That does not leave the body radioactive and does not kill many people unless they are exposed for a long period of time to it. But food being radiated would not be radioactive, at least not anymore then normal..., and would extreamly clean, gaining most excess bacteria from the opening of the package.

Fun thoughts.

 

[silverpig]

Gamma rays 😉

But yeah, I think it's just too expensive to do. And there is a HUGE aversion to the word "radiation" or anything to do with it.

Example: MRI = magnetic resonance imaging.

This device works on the principle of Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR), so the proper term for the procedure is NMRI or Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging. It actually was originally called that, but with the negative connotation the the word "nuclear" brings about the "N" was dropped.

 

[NeoPTLD]

Originally posted by: Cogman
We just took a feild trip out to the INEEL, got to tour the facilities, see 30 foot pools of water with Fuel rods stored at the very bottem, Very cool. Anyways, the tour guide who was fairly good brought up a good point. We could get rid of many common deises that kill arought 9000 each year, like food poisoning, and reduce many storage costs if we were allowed to vacuum pack and radiate the food with gamma particals.

He further explain that the same method is used in most clean enviroments like to steralize (sp?) gloves and such for doctors. The methods also used in other countries like germany on many food produces, like milk. But in the US, it is not used.

So why not? Is the public too scared of the word Radiation that they dont want to chance having anything they interact with radiated? Just for referance, he compaired that to going to the dentist where they shoot a xray beam through the body, That does not leave the body radioactive and does not kill many people unless they are exposed for a long period of time to it. But food being radiated would not be radioactive, at least not anymore then normal..., and would extreamly clean, gaining most excess bacteria from the opening of the package.

Fun thoughts.

They already irradiate certain produce such as strawberries to extend shelf-life without using chemicals.

 

[Coquito]

Wouldn't any of that destroy nutrients in the food. Most packaged food has very little as is.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: Coquito
Wouldn't any of that destroy nutrients in the food. Most packaged food has very little as is.

Nope, No nutriants are distroyed, they may be moved to the left or the right a little, but radiation will not kill a mineral or vitamin, Now, the topic of helpful bacteria comes up, But come on, In meat there really are very little helpful bacteria, if any, so killing them all would do us all a favor, and all beef, pork, turkey, or chicken would require no refridgeration until the package is opened, making it much easier to store (In my opinion)

 

[JattKhalsa]

By the way they use UV (Ultraviolet Rays) to sterilize things not gamma rays or other type of radiation.

 

[jhu]

this whole topic is really just a subset of another topic: risk assessment and how the general public gets it wrong all the time. it's all about education and having prominent scientific authorities spreading the word about such things.

 

[Matthias99]

No, actually they DO use radiation in some processes nowadays (pretty sure it's gamma rays, although there are a couple different companies with differing processes). I've seen the stuff in supermarkets -- it's usually marked with an "Irradiated" sticker.

There was a ton of coverage on this last year in the press -- where have you all been?

FDA brochure

 

[rgwalt]

Think about the general public and how uneducated and ignorant most people are. There would be a massive backlash against irradiating food. While it might be more healthy, it wouldn't be accepted.

I don't think you could irradiate meat and not store it in the fridge. You can do that with some meat (cured meats), but these meats have additives (salt) that prevent bacterial growth. I could be wrong, but I think that even if you vacume packed a chicken breast and irradiated it, it would still rot.

R

 

[Witling]

RGWalt. Yes, you could be wrong. What does it mean "to rot?" It means that there is such a change in the product that it is considered to be inedible. This threshhold is fairly subjective because various cultures like food with various degrees of bacterial content, e.g., blue cheese. But it is bacteria that affects these changes and "rots" the food. Kill all the available bacteria and the food will not rot. It will deteriorate over time as a natural rate of biological breakdown over time. But it will not do what is generally called "rot."

 

[Geniere]

Radiation used for food sterilization does not have sufficient energy to cause nuclear reactions. It is termed ?ionizing radiation? and only acts on the orbital electrons of the nucleus. For reference, a free electron being accelerated from a standstill by a 10volt battery would acquire energy of 10eV (electron volts). Medical x-rays are produced by electrons having energy in the range of 40 to 150KeV (thousand electron volts). Cancer therapy accelerators produce radiation in the 4 to 23Mev range. After about 15MeV, neutrons may be produced in sufficient quantities to be hazardous.

Food sterilization could be (and is) done within the range used for cancer therapy, as the goal is the same, kill cells. Obviously in food we?re concerned about bacteria cells. UV radiation would not be a good choice for food sterilization, as most ionization would occur at the surface. It is a good choice for killing microscopic organisms that can be exposed directly to it. The higher the energy of the incident radiation, the greater is the depth at which maximum ionization occurs. It is this characteristic that allows a cancer deep within the body to be destroyed with little or no damage to surrounding tissue.

Properly packaged radiated food will last a long time but enzyme activity can continue eventually altering the taste and feel. It is a process that should have been in use for several decades now, and is really criminal that it is not.

 

[NickE]

Originally posted by: JattKhalsa
By the way they use UV (Ultraviolet Rays) to sterilize things not gamma rays or other type of radiation.

No, it's gamma that is used for food and medical irradiation; UV has insufficient penetration to be useful for such things. UV is used for water treatment, giving a good bacterial kill in a continuous flow process.

Currently, many herbs and spices are gamma-treated to give greatly extended shelflives; also, a very large application is medical dressings etc. that can be packed using barrier films and then irradiated, thus ensuring complete sterility. Useful link for Americans/Canadians for whom this is pretty new stuff: Food Irradiation

 

[brxndxn]

Alfredo sauce recipe: (serves 1 Americans, 8 any other human)

- 8oz whipping cream
- 8oz finely-grated Parmesian cheese
- 4oz finely-grated Romano cheese
- 1oz olive oil
- 1 teaspoon chives
- 5 oz radiation

Pour whipping cream and oil into small saucepan and heat on medium-low. Stir slowly. Begin adding cheeses one teaspoon at a time and stir to dissolve. It should take 25-30 minutes of stirring and occasionally adding cheese to dissolve all 12oz. Add chives. Quickly add radiaion and stir. Alfredo should take on slight green hue. When alfredo produces light of its own, it is ready to serve. Serve on top of radioactive noodles for a delicious treat.


Ack! radiation in my food!

 

[gsellis]

IIRC, current irradiated products including beef can be stored at room temp in their vacuum packaging.

Sidenote: My friends in college started a "funded" group called CORPSE (Committee on Ridiculous Posters, Slogans, Etc.) The subcommittee SOTS was formed (Stamp Out The Sun). Why? Because "Any level of radiation was harmful!" We got that from some clueon protester against some minor nuclear project. Say the word radiation and the clueless scurry around like roaches with the lights on (well, it is radiation!) 😉

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: gsellis
IIRC, current irradiated products including beef can be stored at room temp in their vacuum packaging.

Sidenote: My friends in college started a "funded" group called CORPSE (Committee on Ridiculous Posters, Slogans, Etc.) The subcommittee SOTS was formed (Stamp Out The Sun). Why? Because "Any level of radiation was harmful!" We got that from some clueon protester against some minor nuclear project. Say the word radiation and the clueless scurry around like roaches with the lights on (well, it is radiation!) 😉

lol, that's great😀

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: JattKhalsa
By the way they use UV (Ultraviolet Rays) to sterilize things not gamma rays or other type of radiation.

UV rays are radiation 😉 in case you were trying to infer otherwise - electromagnetic radiation. Gamma rays, infrared, and visible light too - all electromagnetic radiation.

But it is bacteria that effects these changes and "rots" the food. Kill all the available bacteria and the food will not rot.

Absolutely correct. Now if you can also keep that food from coming into contact with all the bacteria living in the dust that floats in the air, you'd be all set.

It will deteriorate over time as a natural rate of biological breakdown over time.

Biological breakdown, at least at the DNA level, is the result of thousands of cell divisions in living cells, with each division producing a slight degredation in the original DNA sequence - a copy of a copy of a copy....eventually, something starts to get messed up.
If the cells are dead, they won't break down. Since the bacteria that cause decay are also dead, and the cells aren't dividing, there should be no further degredation, with the exception of possible chemical reactions, which Geniere pointed out.

Sidenote: My friends in college started a "funded" group called CORPSE (Committee on Ridiculous Posters, Slogans, Etc.) The subcommittee SOTS was formed (Stamp Out The Sun). Why? Because "Any level of radiation was harmful!" We got that from some clueon protester against some minor nuclear project. Say the word radiation and the clueless scurry around like roaches with the lights on (well, it is radiation!)

My physics teacher in high school loved to make fun of people who feared radiation. He irradiated the entire class by turning on the TV already. Then he spoke to us - sonic radiation. He even brought out a few samples of some radioactive materials - alpha and beta radiation he said. Of course, he said that they were far less dangerous than the radiation showering down on us from the sun. I mean, come on, the stuff from the sun can cause sunburn and cancer! Why hasn't the government done something about it yet? Sheesh. 🙂

 

[akseli]

Originally posted by: Cogman
We just took a feild trip out to the INEEL, got to tour the facilities, see 30 foot pools of water with Fuel rods stored at the very bottem, Very cool. Anyways, the tour guide who was fairly good brought up a good point. We could get rid of many common deises that kill arought 9000 each year, like food poisoning, and reduce many storage costs if we were allowed to vacuum pack and radiate the food with gamma particals.

He further explain that the same method is used in most clean enviroments like to steralize (sp?) gloves and such for doctors. The methods also used in other countries like germany on many food produces, like milk. But in the US, it is not used.

So why not? Is the public too scared of the word Radiation that they dont want to chance having anything they interact with radiated? Just for referance, he compaired that to going to the dentist where they shoot a xray beam through the body, That does not leave the body radioactive and does not kill many people unless they are exposed for a long period of time to it. But food being radiated would not be radioactive, at least not anymore then normal..., and would extreamly clean, gaining most excess bacteria from the opening of the package.

Fun thoughts.

One thing to keep in mind is that having extremely clean food isn't good either. This reduces the amount of antibodies that out body would have to build up during our lifetime which means that we would be far more succeptible to normal sickness. Our immune system needs to keep itself working. If everything we ate were 100% clean then out immune system wouldn't have to work to fight the bacteria that are normally found in the food meaning that if some day some bacteria got onto the food we would most probably die because our body would have no way of fighting the bacteria.
Just a though ...

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: akseli


One thing to keep in mind is that having extremely clean food isn't good either. This reduces the amount of antibodies that out body would have to build up during our lifetime which means that we would be far more succeptible to normal sickness. Our immune system needs to keep itself working. If everything we ate were 100% clean then out immune system wouldn't have to work to fight the bacteria that are normally found in the food meaning that if some day some bacteria got onto the food we would most probably die because our body would have no way of fighting the bacteria.
Just a though ...

it's true...I believe the reason so many people have allergies these days is that their immune systems don't have anything to fight, so they become hypersensitive. IMHO having a bit of extra bacteria in your food is much less dangerous than having lots of chemicals in your food.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: akseli


One thing to keep in mind is that having extremely clean food isn't good either. This reduces the amount of antibodies that out body would have to build up during our lifetime which means that we would be far more succeptible to normal sickness. Our immune system needs to keep itself working. If everything we ate were 100% clean then out immune system wouldn't have to work to fight the bacteria that are normally found in the food meaning that if some day some bacteria got onto the food we would most probably die because our body would have no way of fighting the bacteria.
Just a though ...

it's true...I believe the reason so many people have allergies these days is that their immune systems don't have anything to fight, so they become hypersensitive. IMHO having a bit of extra bacteria in your food is much less dangerous than having lots of chemicals in your food.

Agreed. But, where shelf life is a concern, or the potential risks of bacteria are greater (ex. the deadly form of e choli) I see a benefit for irradiation.

 

[JediJeb]

One use for irradiated food that most people dont think of it the MRE's ( Meals Ready to Eat ) used my the military. Pretty much full meals in a plastic or foil package that are stored at room temp for years which don't degrade. These are irradiated and are great examples of what can be done with this technology. There was also a milk which was irradiated that you could store on the shelf at room temp for like a year without it going bad, I can't remember the name of it but as soon as people found out it was irradiated noone would buy it and it just faded away. The general public is just way too influenced by the radical few who detest anything they dont understand. I even heard of a story where someone as an experiment got a whole town to ban the use of Dihydrogenoxide just to prove a point lol.

 

[akseli]

Originally posted by: JediJeb
One use for irradiated food that most people dont think of it the MRE's ( Meals Ready to Eat ) used my the military. Pretty much full meals in a plastic or foil package that are stored at room temp for years which don't degrade. These are irradiated and are great examples of what can be done with this technology. There was also a milk which was irradiated that you could store on the shelf at room temp for like a year without it going bad, I can't remember the name of it but as soon as people found out it was irradiated noone would buy it and it just faded away. The general public is just way too influenced by the radical few who detest anything they dont understand. I even heard of a story where someone as an experiment got a whole town to ban the use of Dihydrogenoxide just to prove a point lol.

How can we know that in a few years all the soldiers that have consumed MRE's which have been irradieated won't develop some kind of new disease. I think that technologies as "new"(relative) as this one should be carefully studied for long periods of time to conclude that there are no longterm effects before releasing to the public. That process is expensive and time-consuming so very few companies are willing to take a risk to start experimenting with it ...

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: akseli

How can we know that in a few years all the soldiers that have consumed MRE's which have been irradieated won't develop some kind of new disease. I think that technologies as "new"(relative) as this one should be carefully studied for long periods of time to conclude that there are no longterm effects before releasing to the public. That process is expensive and time-consuming so very few companies are willing to take a risk to start experimenting with it ...

...except that irradiated food has been around for decades and decades. If there was any lingering problem with it, we would know by now.

Do you refuse to eat food which has been left out in the sun, for fear that you might get "radiation sickness"?

 

[akseli]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: akseli

How can we know that in a few years all the soldiers that have consumed MRE's which have been irradieated won't develop some kind of new disease. I think that technologies as "new"(relative) as this one should be carefully studied for long periods of time to conclude that there are no longterm effects before releasing to the public. That process is expensive and time-consuming so very few companies are willing to take a risk to start experimenting with it ...

...except that irradiated food has been around for decades and decades. If there was any lingering problem with it, we would know by now.

Do you refuse to eat food which has been left out in the sun, for fear that you might get "radiation sickness"?

I'm not saying that I'd refuse ... but how about ... mad cow's disease ... that's been around for a VERY long time but the first admitted cases have just started coming up these few past years.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: JediJeb
I even heard of a story where someone as an experiment got a whole town to ban the use of Dihydrogenoxide just to prove a point lol.

I believe it was a British kid who, as a middle school science fair project, started a petition to ban the use of "Dihydrogen Monoxide", naming dozens of facts about how dangerous it is:

It's the major component of acid rain!
It's found in virtually every cancerous tumor!
Thousands of people worldwide die after inhaling it every year!
It's been found in groundwater, lakes, rivers, streams, and the oceans!
etc, etc, etc.

He won first prize (and I believe took a prize in a larger competition as well), and the story was picked up by numerous Internet sources (and several 'real' news outlets, as well). There's even a website that's taken up the campaign: www.dhmo.org








































Dihydrogen Monoxide, of course, is the chemical name for water (H2O).

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: akseli


I'm not saying that I'd refuse ... but how about ... mad cow's disease ... that's been around for a VERY long time but the first admitted cases have just started coming up these few past years.

prions have been around for a long time, but they haven't been in FOOD for a long time. That's why people didn't notice. It's only been relatively recently that cows have been fed on bits of other cows (which is how the disease spreads)