Radeon 9700: Boredom Over Whoredom

[GoodRevrnd]

Originally posted by: SexyK

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd

Originally posted by: SexyKI'm not saying the 9700 sucks or Anand is biased, all I'm saying is the guy brings up realistic points and its childish to ignore it just because he doesn't get his message accross the best way.
Kramer

You don't lend your points much credibility if you can't deliver them in a mature and reputable manner. He had maybe 2 credible points. One was Quack3, in which Anand actually hammered ATI too in some regards when he knocked their drivers. OK, I actually can't think of another good point.

How about demoing a card that may or may not represent the final product, but not hesitating to release "benchmarks" anyway? You think that's fine? We've seen ATi release cards to the public at less than the advertised core frequency before.

I don't think it will be significant enough to justify such a mad rant (him, not you).

 

[SexyK]

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd

Originally posted by: SexyK

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd

Originally posted by: SexyKI'm not saying the 9700 sucks or Anand is biased, all I'm saying is the guy brings up realistic points and its childish to ignore it just because he doesn't get his message accross the best way.
Kramer

You don't lend your points much credibility if you can't deliver them in a mature and reputable manner. He had maybe 2 credible points. One was Quack3, in which Anand actually hammered ATI too in some regards when he knocked their drivers. OK, I actually can't think of another good point.

How about demoing a card that may or may not represent the final product, but not hesitating to release "benchmarks" anyway? You think that's fine? We've seen ATi release cards to the public at less than the advertised core frequency before.

I don't think it will be significant enough to justify such a mad rant (him, not you).

So if you preorder a $400 card based on yesterdays benchmarks, then when it ships you end up with a 275MHz core card, you wouldn't be upset? That's not significant?

*not angry, enjoys debate* Kramer 😉

 

[Rand]

After a company cooked their Radeon 8500 benchmarks like Enron and Worldcom cooked their balance sheets, would you expect to have even more faith and trust in a company than you did before? Amazingly, ATI apparently think you're stupid enough to do just that.

Somehow I find what Enron did just a tiny bit less palatable then ATi and their quake-quack issue 😛

Anyone remember if this guy was around back in the days of WinBench 98 and the like?
Almost everyone cheated with that one!

First nVidia started the cheating with the drivers detecting WinBench and implementing a different form of texturing then would otherwise be used.
Intel could be accused of cheating with their checkbox granularity of WinBench capabilities.
ATi, and Matrox started cheating on WinBench a few months after nVidia began the whole charade.
Can't recall if 3dfx every started cheating on WinBench, not that it much matters as everyone else was.
At that time 3D Winbench was pretty much as highly utilized and Quake 3 is today.

If he found Quake/Quack as bad as Enron, then the 3D Winbench fiasco must have been akin to national terrorism! 😀

 

[Wolfsraider]

when will people learn the world loves an underdog?

hounding about past troubles(especially ones that have recieved fixes) only strengthens the public to buy on the chance that this time its the best.

as for his attacks on anand-its a pity a person has to lower their image and the site they operate from just to sell a story,the saddest part of this is :how many people will not trust reviews such as found here at anandtech, all because some (insert your description here) doesn't have a card or won't wait until there is proof that something isn't right before putting up a review without first hand knowledge?therefore the people who are biased by one review
will believe that all reviews are biased and who wiull they trust in providing honest reviews?

seriously i read first hand reviews everywhere then when the item comes out i again read about the remarks of those reviews and finally i check out the item a few months down the road to see if anything new has arrisen to change its worth(most purchases) all because the
few (insert name here) who don't have products or give bad reviews (don't give unbiased reviews) tend to influence the big picture.

in this case i feel there was no pertinent information to take from this review and he has succeded in forming a bias in my mind to carefully scrutinize any information recieved from that website.at least until such a time as he prints something worth reading and unbiased.

thanks for the heads up guys

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Originally posted by: SexyK

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd

Originally posted by: SexyK

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd

Originally posted by: SexyKI'm not saying the 9700 sucks or Anand is biased, all I'm saying is the guy brings up realistic points and its childish to ignore it just because he doesn't get his message accross the best way.
Kramer

You don't lend your points much credibility if you can't deliver them in a mature and reputable manner. He had maybe 2 credible points. One was Quack3, in which Anand actually hammered ATI too in some regards when he knocked their drivers. OK, I actually can't think of another good point.

How about demoing a card that may or may not represent the final product, but not hesitating to release "benchmarks" anyway? You think that's fine? We've seen ATi release cards to the public at less than the advertised core frequency before.

I don't think it will be significant enough to justify such a mad rant (him, not you).

So if you preorder a $400 card based on yesterdays benchmarks, then when it ships you end up with a 275MHz core card, you wouldn't be upset? That's not significant?

*not angry, enjoys debate* Kramer 😉

People foolish enough to preorder anything get what's coming to them. As bad as I want it, I'm probably not going to touch this card until NV30 or a .13 R300 comes out (god forbid I have a moment of weakness 😱).

 

[Jayllo]

Lol, hes just jealous because he didn't get to test a sample like most other hardware sites.

No wonder hes spewing such crap instead of reviewing given that attitude.

 

[NOX]

Who The Hell Runs Games At 1600X1200?

If the few indicators we have can be believed (more on this below), the Radeon 9700 consistently blows away the Ti4600 at 1600X1200.

Not you, based on the survey information we've seen. 1024X768 seems to be the sweet spot for gamers, with a slow migration towards 1280X1024.

Most of you have monitors that are 17-to-19 inches. 1600X1200 is too tiny for those sizes. If it isn't for you (especially with 17 inches), stop shooting people in Quake, and start sharpshooting people in the Army.

While 21-inch monitors have dropped a lot in price over the past few years, they still cost a good deal more than most people are willing to spend. They're also bulky and heavy, not the best selling points when the buying audience often finds space to be in short supply.

So I don't see any rush to 1600X1200 anytime soon. That will have to await big, cheap LCD displays, and that won't happen until 2005 or so.

The performance pattern of the Radeon 9700 seems to be as follows:


It's not much better at 1024X768 than the Ti4600.

At 1280X1024, gaps widen, to varying degrees.

It usually does pretty well at 1600X1200, but again, to varying degrees.

It is likely that if you like antialiasing and the like, this will do pretty well also, but let's see a little more proof on that first.

However, these conclusions rely on the independence and objectivity of the measurements, and, as we shall see, this is questionable.

Would someone please tell this Donkey, that the reason for any benchmark (more so a general benchmark) is for comparison (demonstrating the hardware, ability to perform at a particular level). Thus why people will review a card at, for example 1600x1200! It?s not to suggest people are playing at 1600x1200, it?s just so people know the potential of the card.

Get a grip man! Your review (or whatever you call that) stinks!

 

[Rand]

Hmm, It seems Mr. Ed Stroligo, the author of the article has an aqfully dubious reputation of his own. It seems he has an unusual habit of writing articles mocking HardOCP, and AnandTech... as well as those that frequent the respective forums.

Quite a lot of rather amusing information about the author of this piece at Hypothermia and HardOCP's forums, as well as past HardOCP editorials.

So if you preorder a $400 card based on yesterdays benchmarks, then when it ships you end up with a 275MHz core card, you wouldn't be upset? That's not significant?

He at least has a point in one respect with the above comment, though I'm unsure why he singles out ATi as being guilty of this as nVidia and Matrox have both pre-announced boards at one clockspeed and then shipped them at another.


His point about 1600x1200 gaming are clearly foolish. The reason people don't game at such levels is because they CANNOT!
Very few people have graphics card capable of handling games at 1600x1200.
He states only a maximum of 1024x768 as the resolution almost everyone plays games at.
Once upon a time in the Voodoo 1 and early Voodoo 2 era 640x480 was the sweet spot, and 800x600 was the high point.
Did that mean no one wanted to play at ahigher resolution?
Of course not!
Very few people had boards that were capable of 1024x768 gaming at the time.
At the present time it's obvious that people did want more then 640x480 gaming, as we've progressed well beyond that today.

Even if no one ever gamed at 1600x1200 though, it would still be viable as a test however because it would give a vague indication of how the board may perform on future more stressful games.

 

[Judgement]

I feel dumber then I did when I woke up, and I'm pretty sure its from reading that article.

 

[CelticDemolition]

Originally posted by: Rand
Hmm, It seems Mr. Ed Stroligo, the author of the article has an aqfully dubious reputation of his own. It seems he has an unusual habit of writing articles mocking HardOCP, and AnandTech... as well as those that frequent the respective forums.

Quite a lot of rather amusing information about the author of this piece at Hypothermia and HardOCP's forums, as well as past HardOCP editorials.

So if you preorder a $400 card based on yesterdays benchmarks, then when it ships you end up with a 275MHz core card, you wouldn't be upset? That's not significant?

He at least has a point in one respect with the above comment, though I'm unsure why he singles out ATi as being guilty of this as nVidia and Matrox have both pre-announced boards at one clockspeed and then shipped them at another.


His point about 1600x1200 gaming are clearly foolish. The reason people don't game at such levels is because they CANNOT!
Very few people have graphics card capable of handling games at 1600x1200.
He states only a maximum of 1024x768 as the resolution almost everyone plays games at.
Once upon a time in the Voodoo 1 and early Voodoo 2 era 640x480 was the sweet spot, and 800x600 was the high point.
Did that mean no one wanted to play at ahigher resolution?
Of course not!
Very few people had boards that were capable of 1024x768 gaming at the time.
At the present time it's obvious that people did want more then 640x480 gaming, as we've progressed well beyond that today.

Even if no one ever gamed at 1600x1200 though, it would still be viable as a test however because it would give a vague indication of how the board may perform on future more stressful games.

d00ds, i play EVERYTHING at 16x12 on my 19" hitachi, most notably avp2 and sof2, and it looks great, let me tell you.

 

[BFG10K]

Who The Hell Runs Games At 1600X1200?

I do.

Not you, based on the survey information we've seen.

F*ck the survey. I do what I want, not what the survey says.

1024X768 seems to be the sweet spot for gamers, with a slow migration towards 1280X1024.

And?

1600X1200 is too tiny for those sizes. If it isn't for you (especially with 17 inches), stop shooting people in Quake, and start sharpshooting people in the Army.

3D objects stay a constant size regardless of the resolution and properly designed sprites and HUDs will do the same. I wonder if this guy has ever even played anything at 1600 x 1200.

It's not much better at 1024X768 than the Ti4600

In current games perhaps, because of CPU and platform limitations. Just wait for Unreal2, Doom3 and other future games where the differenece will be much higher, even at 1024 x 768. Also the gap will widen when faster systems become available.

It is likely that if you like antialiasing and the like,

I don't.

Has "Quack 3" been forgotten so quickly?

I haven't forgotten it at all but I'm not going to doom a company forever just because of an incident like this. Besides, ATi have proven that they can optimise drivers for speed without cheating with the 8500.

Less-than-cooked drivers and clock speeds can be a legitimate reason to not have any benchmarks at all, or to caveat the performance.

Or it can show that despite being largely immature at this point this card is still kicking serious ass and will only get better in four weeks time.

 

[Boogak]

While I agree with some of his points like taking the recent 9700 previews with a grain of salt since the final clockspeed hasn't been determined yet (and based on past video card releases not just from ATI but from Nvidia and more recently Matrox, I can almost bet that it will be clocked slower than the preview board) and the benchmarks was run in an ATI controlled environment, I disagree with his opening statement of who runs games at 1600x1200.

The people who like to run games at 1600x1200 and have the huge a$$ 21" monitors are probably the SAME kinda people that are gonna shell out $400 for this new card w/o a blink, they want and need the fillrate to run their games at insane resolutions at maximum quality. Not only that, but having that kinda power just makes your video card more future-proof. Anyway, he kinda lost credibility with me with that first opening statement.

 

[CrazySaint]

Originally posted by: SexyK

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd

Originally posted by: SexyKI'm not saying the 9700 sucks or Anand is biased, all I'm saying is the guy brings up realistic points and its childish to ignore it just because he doesn't get his message accross the best way.
Kramer

You don't lend your points much credibility if you can't deliver them in a mature and reputable manner. He had maybe 2 credible points. One was Quack3, in which Anand actually hammered ATI too in some regards when he knocked their drivers. OK, I actually can't think of another good point.

How about demoing a card that may or may not represent the final product, but not hesitating to release "benchmarks" anyway? You think that's fine? We've seen ATi release cards to the public at less than the advertised core frequency before.

If Anand had stated that the retail card would have the same clockspeed as the preview card, or made no mention of possible differences, then you might have a point. HOWEVER, Anand clearly stated that the retail card may, in fact, have a lower clock speed than the preview card. Where's the lack of credibility in that?

IMO, that review sounds like a one-sided version of arguments I've seen in video game chatrooms between games - immature and braindead.

 

[MikeO]

Straight to my Top10 "Worst Hardware Related Articles Ever".

 

[dew042]

first off - you can stop calling him a nvidiot. he far from. he a long track record about commenting equally on all sides. he has done previous articles about corporate tricks with the nforce chipset. he attacks intel and amd when they do something dumb....nothing new.

second off - grow up. regardless of the facts, ed has brought up some very interesting and very real points. this article is only partially about ati. this is larger probelm - an industry wide probelm. this doesn't sound familiar? you actually believe corporations in the tech industry are honest and ethical? well- strike one for ati for the doom3 enhanced drivers then.....Strike one for nvidias false PR campaign to discredit the KYRO2 GPU. Hmmmm. these are the companies you are defending? Everytime you see a review you don't analyse what is is useful info and what is advertising? All these things run through my head and evidence such as this make me more sceptical and causcious of who i believe in reviews and PREviews.

so why don't we all start acting like adults and see if we can actually have some intellegent constructive discussion. flaming him is just sad. expecially when very few readers are actually good enough readers to read outside the box and take valueable insight from what ed has brought up. he's not infallaible but that doesn't mean he doesn't have some good points.

dew.

 

[cmdrdredd]

to comment on the 1600x1200 thing....In reality games at 1600x1200 are fine, but when you try to read messages that are typed by your team/enemy/server etc in Q3 or UT you can barely read the text. probably because the poor design of it, but also the console. the console shrinks down so I can't even read it. I wish it was not so, but it is...for me

 

[NFS4]

so why don't we all start acting like adults and see if we can actually have some intellegent constructive discussion. flaming him is just sad. expecially when very few readers are actually good enough readers to read outside the box and take valueable insight from what ed has brought up. he's not infallaible but that doesn't mean he doesn't have some good points.

Flaming websites and equating them to people that get down on their knees and take what ever is given to them is ethical? Equating their actions to pedophilia and calling them trained dogs is ethical? This is sensational journalism at it's best/worst...however you want to look at it.

This is NOT the way to try to get your point across. There are other ways to bring matters to attention instead of flaming people. Then you're gonna get upset for people in here flaming Ed after he flames AT and THG? You can't scold one without scolding the other.

Lastly, he didn't even have all the fact concerning AT's testing of the Radeon 9700 so who is he to judge?

 

[dew042]

Flaming websites and equating them to people that get down on their knees and take what ever is given to them is ethical?

i wouldn't put that in the realm of ethics. in fact it has very little to do with ethics. stating an opinion is not un-ethical.

are you implying that review websites actually are independent? let's start seeing the high and mighty buying their own review hw. its a buddy/buddy good old boys club to the very end. give me a break. you must be really nieve if you actually believe that. in what way is that relationship not metaphorically simular to being a whore?

i never said Ed was clean, but to say that AT is clean too is not accurate either is it? he even admitted he wasn't clean. some are just dirtier than others. i take everything people report with a grain of salt.

but obiviously nobody is prepared to take on the larger issue he raises, so let's just take about his deficies and ignore the important issues. and the real lesson here is don't rock the boat.

dew.

 

[SteelCityFan]

He's just mad because AnAndTech was allowed to test one and show the % improvement over current cards. He probably wasn't even allowed in the room to look at one... lol

 

[dew042]

Originally posted by: SteelCityFan
He's just mad because AnAndTech was allowed to test one and show the % improvement over current cards. He probably wasn't even allowed in the room to look at one... lol

overclockers.com doesn't do vid card reviews.

dew.

 

[SteelCityFan]

FYI. His email is linked at the bottom.. lol

 

[NFS4]

are you implying that review websites actually are independent? let's start seeing the high and mighty buying their own review hw. its a buddy/buddy good old boys club to the very end. give me a break. you must be really nieve if you actually believe that. in what way is that relationship not metaphorically simular to being a whore?

And how would you get previews of un-released hardware if websites had to go out and buy their hardware AFTER it has been released to the public. What good does that do the consumer?

I work with Anand, I've been in the lab, I see the in-depth testing that he does on video cards/motherboard/CPU's. I know how many hours he Matt, Mike, and everyone else does on reviews. Anand hardly ever gets much sleep balancing school and running this site. He is always out to help US in the end. It's nothing about being buddy-buddy with manufacturers. If they put out a piss poor product, they hear it from us. If they put out something worthwile, you'll hear that too.

It's easy to sit back and criticize when you don't have ANY idea about what's going on behind the scenes. It's that kind of attitude that ticks me off.

 

[Holmecollie]

Originally posted by: dew042
second off - grow up. regardless of the facts, ed has brought up some very interesting and very real points. this article is only partially about ati. this is larger probelm - an industry wide probelm. this doesn't sound familiar? you actually believe corporations in the tech industry are honest and ethical? well- strike one for ati for the doom3 enhanced drivers then.....Strike one for nvidias false PR campaign to discredit the KYRO2 GPU. Hmmmm. these are the companies you are defending? Everytime you see a review you don't analyse what is is useful info and what is advertising? All these things run through my head and evidence such as this make me more sceptical and causcious of who i believe in reviews and PREviews.

Hmm grow up. This hwole "preveiw" is very childish, he has no idea of what this produkt can do and he makes comments about now he's not gonna buy it. Maybe one or two points make any sense but FACE IT, it's presented in a childish fashion.

 

[dew042]

Originally posted by: NFS4

are you implying that review websites actually are independent? let's start seeing the high and mighty buying their own review hw. its a buddy/buddy good old boys club to the very end. give me a break. you must be really nieve if you actually believe that. in what way is that relationship not metaphorically simular to being a whore?

And how would you get previews of un-released hardware if websites had to go out and buy their hardware AFTER it has been released to the public. What good does that do the consumer?

I work with Anand, I've been in the lab, I see the in-depth testing that he does on video cards/motherboard/CPU's. I know how many hours he Matt, Mike, and everyone else does on reviews. Anand hardly ever gets much sleep balancing school and running this site. He is always out to help US in the end. It's nothing about being buddy-buddy with manufacturers. If they put out a piss poor product, they hear it from us. If they put out something worthwile, you'll hear that too.

It's easy to sit back and criticize when you don't have ANY idea about what's going on behind the scenes. It's that kind of attitude that ticks me off.

fact is: their is a symbiotic relationship here. whenever that happens there is reason to question the reports and motives of jounalism.

frankly - i think anandtech does a good job - surely one of the best. but they are not beyond question and criticism. in fact they should welcome it - because it allows them to become better. on the whole grand scheme of things i would imagine 80% of the review sites out there are not quite as financial stable and technically saavy to be un-influenced by corporate pressure. if they criticize they will get cut off. take for example hardocp and matrox - case in point.

i spent four years in the college music and radio industry. the relationship is the same there - you either produce or you stop recieving the good graces of the record companies. and likewise their are a few stations that are big enough that they can resist that pressure, but it is a great minority.

constant vigilence and discussion is absolutely neccesary to ensure truth and accuracy in any industry. you can't trust anyone.

do you disagree with my basic premise? shoud we turn our back and HOPE that reporting is truthful and un-biased. i think that would be foolish.

dew.

 

[dew042]

Originally posted by: Holmecollie

Originally posted by: dew042
second off - grow up. regardless of the facts, ed has brought up some very interesting and very real points. this article is only partially about ati. this is larger probelm - an industry wide probelm. this doesn't sound familiar? you actually believe corporations in the tech industry are honest and ethical? well- strike one for ati for the doom3 enhanced drivers then.....Strike one for nvidias false PR campaign to discredit the KYRO2 GPU. Hmmmm. these are the companies you are defending? Everytime you see a review you don't analyse what is is useful info and what is advertising? All these things run through my head and evidence such as this make me more sceptical and causcious of who i believe in reviews and PREviews.

Hmm grow up. This hwole "preveiw" is very childish, he has no idea of what this produkt can do and he makes comments about now he's not gonna buy it. Maybe one or two points make any sense but FACE IT, it's presented in a childish fashion.

yeah - it wasn't the most mature. but i found some points interesting.

dew.