Radeon 9000 PCI

[AnAndAustin]

rbV5, you are pretty self righteous ... and pretty inaccurate too (as per usual).

If you look back through the thead (take the time to read fool, I took the time to find the links) you'll find that people were interested in:

1. Voodoo5, how does it compare and is it worth tracking one down in PCI form? I gave links.
2. Rad9000/pro which is likely to come in PCI form, will it be worth the wait? Is it better than Rad8500? I gave links.
3. RadeonVE/7000, how does it compare? I gave links.
4. Rad7500, how does this stack up, esp to the GF4MX cards? Will R7500/P9000 slaughter the other cards because it uses DDR? I gave links.
5. GF4MX420, how does this fair, GF2MX400 or GF2GTS speed? How good compared to other cards available in PCI? I gave links.
6. SDR vs DDR, is that the biggest factor in a card's speed? I gave links.
7. AGP vs PCI, what is the likely perf diff, 10%, 30% or 50%? I gave links.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Heck, if you read trikster2's original post he mentions Voodoo5, GF2MX400, RadeonSDR, Radeon7000, GF4MX420, Radeon7500, Radeon9000 and in particular how is the Rad9000 likely to compare to a Voodoo5.

How can you say, " and give some exaggerated 'proof' " when I'm giving my opinion but giving many links to give as true and accurate idea as possible.

Then you come out with, "Seems like once you jump in anymore..I lose all interest in the thread......." Well that proves you're like most of the other a$$holes who are happy to throw wild claims and unsupported hearsay around and then cry and stamp your feet when somebody takes the time and trouble to find out the facts.

 

[AnAndAustin]

So to breifly answer each question in turn (rather than insult someone who's spent hours tawling the net to find useful and impartial info).

1. Voodoo5 is an old card. In pure performance it generally beat GF2 but is certainly slower than GF2TI, GF4MX420 and Rad7500. Drivers are now better for modern OS but do expect some problems, the biggest problem is lack of T&L which has been the standard for quite some time now.

2. Rad9000 is a fair bit slower than Rad9000pro, but even so it should bring a significant amount of more speed and features than current cards available in PCI. Rad9000PRO is nearly always far worse than Rad8500, but even so it is certainly better than GF2, GF4MX and Rad7500 cards.

3. RadVE/7000 is significantly slower than GF2MX, in fact it is more comparable to the Matrox G450 card!

 

[AnAndAustin]

4. Rad7500 is significantly faster than GF2MX400, generally the Rad7500 positions itself in between GF2MX400 and GF4MX440. But watch out for non-ATI Radeo7500 cards, the Gigabyte LE version uses SDR and this makes the card only fractionaly faster than GF2MX400. So basicly it is VERY close between the Rad7500 and GF4MX420.

5. GF4MX420 is almost identical to the Rad7500. It generally gives GF2GTS levels of perf, in between GF2MX400 and GF2TI. So it blows away GF2MX cards, RadVE/7000 and even Voodoo5. Unless Rad9000 surfaces then Rad7500 and GF4MX420 are clearly the best cards.

 

[AnAndAustin]

6. SDR vs DDR, it is not the 'be all and end all' but a card which uses DDR instead of SDR will get a significant perf boost, 50%+. This can be seen on ATI Rad7500 vs Giga Rad7500LE, GF4MX420 vs GF4MX440 and GF2MX400 vs GF2GTS. An SDR card certaily can give the perf of a DDR card an example being GF4MX420 (250/166) vs Rad7500 (290/460).

7. AGP vs PCI, the hit is mostly dependent on the card. Voodoo5 takes about a 5-10% hit but this lessens as res increases and the 2 types of card converge. GF2MX takes a 10-25% hit but again as res increases the diffs get smaller. Of the older cards Riva128 takes a 2-4% hit while TNT2 takes a 5-10% hit. You do have to bear in mind that these are in no way 100% but just rough guides. The hw they are tested on, games tested and drivers used all vary and as such it gives a rough guide to perf hit and a rough guide only.

If you don't like these results then you provide and assess better links, I think this is as accurate as humanly possible.

 

[rbV5]

rbV5, you are pretty self righteous ... and pretty inaccurate too (as per usual)......If you look back through the thead (take the time to read fool

Oh My:Q

LOL, you paper tech guys crack me up.

 

[bluemax]

Talk about neffing to boost post count. :|

AnAndAustin, there are a lot of folks in here that know the subject a lot better than you. You'd be wise to at least hear what they have to say, rather than what you've been doing which is:
1) Spreading Fudged-Up Data (FUD)
2) Calling anyone who disagrees with you a "liar" or "inaccurate"
3) Using zealotry to alter data to show your viewpoint instead of the real picture.


This guy wants a PCI video card. The Voodoo5 PCI was the best thing going. It originally ran about as fast as a GF2MX, BUT LATER DRIVER REVISIONS PLACED IT ALMOST AS FAST AS A GTS. That's something you didn't get from your "brand new Voodoo5" reviews.

nVidia cards tend to perform quite a bit slower on the PCI bus. More than a 10% loss.

The Radeon 9000 PCI will be, quite simply, THE fastest consumer-level PCI 3D accelerator available to date. Period.

 

[Peter]

Don't listen to AnAndAustin, he's just one know-it-all who doesn't ever shut up even when proven wrong all over. Just look at all the other threads he's spread his "knowledge" in.

 

[AnAndAustin]

bluemax.

QUOTE: "AnAndAustin, there are a lot of folks in here that know the subject a lot better than you."

Well if there are they are certainly wrong an aweful lot and have big problems when independent links and reviews prove what they claimed was wrong. I have never said I know it all, but I know more than most and unlike some I am willing to listen, admit when I'm inaccurate and slow to criticise until I have the facts.

 

[AnAndAustin]

QUOTE: "what you've been doing which is: 1) Spreading Fudged-Up Data (FUD) 2) Calling anyone who disagrees with you a "liar" or "inaccurate" 3) Using zealotry to alter data to show your viewpoint instead of the real picture."

I don't understand where I have spread FUD and I have only used words like 'misinformed' and 'inaccurate' when it has been validly proven so by independent links and under severe and unecessary criticism. I certainly have at no point twisted anything or omitted anything in order to prove my point. I have listened to what people have said and given my opinion on the matter and then proceeded to clear things up with as many independent links and reviews as possible and at NO point have I introduced bias. In fact if you look back you will see that I underestimated the Voodoo5's perf a little and aslo the small hit it takes going from AGP to PCI.

 

[AnAndAustin]

QUOTE: "This guy wants a PCI video card. The Voodoo5 PCI was the best thing going. It originally ran about as fast as a GF2MX, BUT LATER DRIVER REVISIONS PLACED IT ALMOST AS FAST AS A GTS. That's something you didn't get from your "brand new Voodoo5" reviews."

Now if you can point me to some more up to date reviews of Voodoo5 I will gladly add them to the list, these were simply the only reviews I could find and I notice it's a lot more time and trouble than any of you criticisers have done. From my experience later drivers for the V5 particularly on modern OS have been unofficial (where's 3dfx?) and you can't add hw T&L either, if anything I would say nVidia cards have improved since the reviews as their drivers have vastly improved. If you read, you will see that I pointed out that the cards used the 'current drivers at the time'.

 

[AnAndAustin]

QUOTE: "nVidia cards tend to perform quite a bit slower on the PCI bus. More than a 10% loss."

Hands up I underestimated the Voodoo5's perf and the smaller hit it takes when going to PCI, but I never tried to hide this and have given the best account of relevant hits diff cards take when going from AGP to PCI. You would also notice I say regarding AGP-to-PCI, V5 takes a 5-10% hit while GF2 take a 10-25% hit, although it is very difficult to accurately assess this and it should be considered a rough guide and is based on the best info can find.

QUOTE: The Radeon 9000 PCI will be, quite simply, THE fastest consumer-level PCI 3D accelerator available to date. Period.

This is something we all agree on, but how long the wait will be, how well the card will scale and will it be worth the price are all factors. However from what we know currently the V5 is a bad choice and the GF4MX420 and Rad7500 are by far the best currently available PCI cards.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Peter.

QUOTE: "Don't listen to AnAndAustin, he's just one know-it-all who doesn't ever shut up even when proven wrong all over. Just look at all the other threads he's spread his 'knowledge' in."

When have you proven me wrong, all you've done is criticise me and make comments which have proved to be incorrect. Take a look at the other threads, I do my best to give fair and unbiased information, admit when I'm wrong and always give links and reviews to back up my words.

 

[bluemax]

That whole schpiel could have easily been ONE message, not a half-dozen.
Quite neffing to boost your post count.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

25 posts out of 38 total and I'm 39. That is pathetic. Major spam right there. There is an edit function, AnandAustin, you could have used to cram those 25 spams into just 3. Jeeze...

 

[AnAndAustin]

I can totally understand why you would think that bluemax, I thought you were saying that earlier but I was unfamiliar with the word 'neffing' and thought it was most likely nonsense or an insult. Unfortunately I have been severely limited since re-installing WinXP to the amount of words the AnAndTech Forums will allow me to post, no other forums seem to have this problem. If you look back a few weeks or so you will find my posts were bigger. I've informed AnAndTech Forums about this and have not had any reply, but I realise they are busy.

If you think I'm sad enough to care about my post count then you're wrong, that doesn't bother me in the least and I use these forums to help people out and not to boost my ego.

EDIT Try to give a guy some credit bunnyfubbles rather than jumping to conclusions. I am not interested in post count nor stupid enough to make several small posts in order to boost it.

 

[Rand]

I'm exiting this entire thread right now, it's degraded into insults and flames being thrown back and forth. I imagine trikster2 has recieved his answer so I suggest we all leave this thread.
I'm not specifying anyone in particular, but I would hope we'd all remember this is not a life and death matter.

I'm sure we can have a calm and reasonable debate on the relative merits of individual graphics cards.
This is not a contest to show who's right or wrong, or who is the best. NONE of us know everything, and every last one of us will and have made mistakes before.
We all have different opinions, and we all have different experiences with various hardware.
I sincerely doubt that there is anyone that has ever so much as glanced at this thread who is so experienced, and knowledgeable that they cannot learn anything at all from another poster.

Can't we all make an effort to have a calm and rational discussion?
There is no law that says we must all reach a consensus opinion, we're bound to have differing views-- and that's okay.
If someone disagrees with you, that doesnt make them wrong. It means they have a different view-point which is hardly a crime.

Calling others a$$holes, liars, zealots, know-it-all's or anything else does NOT reflect positively upon the person stating such comments. It doesnt help you to present your case, and it doesnt make you superior to another.
About the only thing it does do is show that your incapable of calmly and rationally discussing a topic by presenting your opinion/experience and any data you may have to backup this viewpoint. Instead you have to resort to insults and flames to get your way and make certain that everyone bows to your superior intellect.

It isnt a contest, and none of us are perfect or entirely factually correct in every respect.
No matter how knowledgeable you are, I GUARANTEE there is always someone else on these forums that knows more then you do.

I tend to consider myself reasonably intelligent, and I think I have a good breadth of knowledge and experience in various fields related to computer hardware.
But without hesitating I can easily name a good 20 people on these forums that I firmly believe are considerably more knowledgeable then I in any given field.

I'll re-state that I am not aiming this post at any specific individual but to all of us as a group, myself included.


*Steps down off his soapbox*

 

[trikster2]

Thanks for all the replies/info

I emailed powercolor USA and got this reply:

> Dear Sir:

> Thanks very much for your interesting.

> So far, I still have not recieved a schedual for this item, I will
> comfirm our factory in Taiwan. Probably give you answer
> next week.

> Best regards,

> Elton

As to reviews: Just about everything online regarding PCI cards is fairly outdated.

What I would really like to see is a PCI specific Roundup using a 1Ghz or so CPU for the AIW Radeon, Radeon 7000, 7200, 7500,9000, Matro g450, Nvidia MX200, MX400, Geforce4 MX420 and if available 440 PCI.

If not all of the above at least the newer cards like the GeForce4 MX and the 7500/9000 ATIs in PCI and AGP version (to judge if going to a new MB would be worth the performance increase of AGP).

Just looking at the number of "what's the best PCI Graphics card" posts in this forum would seem to indicate there is interest in such a review.

 

[Mloot]

I'm new to this forum, but if you search on Google, there are a number of foreign sites that indicate that Hercules will be releasing a 3D Prophet 9000 PCI card in September. However, I was unable to corroborate this information on Hercules' official site.


My two cents,

Dinny

 

[AnAndAustin]

trikster2, my apologies that this thread seemed to lose it's purpose and I admit that I am partly to blame for that but my intentions were both good and honest.

Anyway, I agree that there would be a lot of interest in a 'best of PCI' roundup and comparisons to AGP alternatives, maybe we'll get one when Rad9000 PCI comes out as currently that will blow everything else clean out of the water and also bring huge benefits for users with faster CPUs but who lack an AGP2.0 slot or worse still any slot at all. If you're close to 1ghz then you'll defintely do best to wait for Rad9000 to make it to PCI.

It would be wise to upgrade to a new CPU and mobo, esp so if you currently have PC133 SDR, all PCI cards (eg no ISA) and a decent PSU (pref 300W). The boost going from a PIII 1ghz to an AthlonXP1800+ ($71+$20 for good HSF) and SktA ($50) is very significant and would open up more future upgrade paths and allow the use of inexpensive VERY fast gfx cards like Rad8500, GF3 or GF4TI cards in AGP format, which would be very beneficial as the overpriced PCI cards get into probs when a game reqs more gfx RAM and even 64MB is beginning to look minorly inadequate in the newest games.

 

[Athlon4all]

Totally agree Rand. There is no reason for bashing. It's not the way we are to act. I do agree with AnandAustin that a PCI Card Roundup is a bit over due here at Anandtech (the last PCI card reviewed was I think the Radeon PCI or some other one during that era of cards)

 

[adlep]

Ok, people here is some good, interesting read for ya all:
PCI RADEON 7500 from Power Color

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Seriously though, I don't care if you post a dictionary's worth of information but as long as it isn't 40 of 50 posts it is cool. It's good you want to help other people, just use the edit function more so we don't have to scroll through and think you are holding 5 converstions with yourself, lol.

Like one guy said previously, it looks like TWCO.com will have the PCI 9000 in stock whenever it comes to be available, that should surely be the best PCI video card methinks...

 

[bluemax]

Well I'm disappointed that there aren't more(any?) Radeon 9000PCI cards out yet.... hope that changes soon.

And I apologize for getting a bit hot under the collar....

 

[AnAndAustin]

Hey peace. And you'll be glad to know that I can now make posts bigger than half the box, which was VERY frustrating and irritating for me too. I reinstalled WinXP Pro and since reinstallation Hotmail and AnAndTech Forums have shown probs, I thought it was Java (still problematic) or cookies (copied from backup CD) but it turns out it was Telewest Broadband Internet which needed to be rooted through a proxy server and wasn't. Sorry for the multiple small posts but at least that shouldn't happen again. Would going through and editing the above posts, combining where possible and deleting the combined info be worth me doing? Would that reduce the post counter (I don't care what my post count is)? It has only been for a few frustrating weeks but at least it's rectified now.