Race and Responsibilities

[cwjerome]

Could the state of racial -primarily white and black- relations be better in the USA? Perhaps most people would argue "Yes"... but how?

It seems to me that since MLKs assasination in 1968, the civil rights movement (particularly the Black "leaders") have failed miserably in continuing the struggle for better lives in minority populations. Not only have these so-called leaders lost their moral authority, they've done more harm than good in advancing equality and overall social progress for Black people.

I think it's important to realize past mistakes and analyze the present honestly if we are to take the issue seriously and promote the effective change we desire. That's the point of this topic. What are some of the problems that have lead to our current state** and what are some solutions?

As I have mentioned I believe a large part of the blame lies with the self-proclaimed civil rights leaders who have bungled and misguided the movement for the past 30 years or so. Total rejection of these people and their policies is the intelligent and moral thing to do. (And I'll give more specifics and examples as the thread expands to support my view)


** granted, I don't believe our current state is completely horrible (and is in fact vastly overreported as negative), but it is nowhere near what it should be

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

I don't think we as the human race know enough to move forward. For better or worse, races are vastly segregated, and often not forcibly. So it is that we vary culturally, and these differences can sometimes prove problematic for integration. The government has attempted to mesh us all together, and we don't really know for certain whether or not that is best, or, if it is, how much pressure to apply.

But a few points are key:
>We don't fully understand the physiological differences between races.
>We don't know if pressuring cultural integration is wise.
>We don't understand how to best integrate differing cultures, even assuming we should at all.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
I don't think we as the human race know enough to move forward. For better or worse, races are vastly segregated, and often not forcibly. So it is that we vary culturally, and these differences can sometimes prove problematic for integration. The government has attempted to mesh us all together, and we don't really know for certain whether or not that is best, or, if it is, how much pressure to apply.

I think we do know enough. I'm not talking about some social utopia or something, I'm talking about having a noticably better situation than we have now.

But a few points are key:
>We don't fully understand the physiological differences between races.
>We don't know if pressuring cultural integration is wise.
>We don't understand how to best integrate differing cultures, even assuming we should at all.

1) We don't know everything, but thanks to genome research, we understand something many of us have long suspected: racial categories recognized by society are not reflected much on the genetic level. Distinguishing people by race has virtually no biological foundation. Evidently we are so evolutionarily young that we haven't had the chance to divide ourselves into separate biological groups -races- in any but maybe the most superficial ways. It may be easy to tell a White or Black apart, the same isn't so when looking at cells, etc.

2) I think cultural integration CAN BE wise... and in the context of American Black/White relations, I definately think it is wise.

3) Assuming we should integrate cultures to whatever degree, I think we CAN identify reasonable, natural, and beneficial ways of doing so. But I think the very idea of having different Black-White cultures can be mistaken. I happen to believe in an AMERICAN culture, that is Black and White combined.

 

[Witling]

CVJ Well, for a batch of conclusory statements without any further evidence,

As I have mentioned I believe a large part of the blame lies with the self-proclaimed civil rights leaders who have bungled and misguided the movement for the past 30 years or so. Total rejection of these people and their policies is the intelligent and moral thing to do. (And I'll give more specifics and examples as the thread expands to support my view)

will do fine.

Before I go on, let me state that I'm a flaming liberal White guy from Berkeley California. Now you can't know this is true but I think that people who start these kind of discussions whithout revealing where they might be coming from crawl in the dust of the earth like reptiles. Let me know if that sentence structrue was too complicated. I can make it simpler.

Before I go on in this subject, please, let us know where the self-proclaimed civil rights leaders failed. Maybe we can discuss facts instead of opinions.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I think we do know enough. I'm not talking about some social utopia or something, I'm talking about having a noticably better situation than we have now.

I should probably revise that first statement: I suspect we don't know enough. But I'm not sure.

1) We don't know everything, but thanks to genome research, we understand something many of us have long suspected: racial categories recognized by society are not reflected much on the genetic level. Distinguishing people by race has virtually no biological foundation.

You're probably referring to a study by Alan R. Templeton, in which he concludes that genetic differences between races can be dismissed as negligible. Unfortunately, while it is evident the media has embraced his claims as Gospel truth, I do not know if his findings have been accepted by the scientific community. Some scientists--Dr. George Gill comes to mind--accept the alleged biological nature of race, but I don't know who to believe. I do, however, know that there are plenty of externally obvious differences between races.

Evidently we are so evolutionarily young that we haven't had the chance to divide ourselves into separate biological groups -races- in any but maybe the most superficial ways. It may be easy to tell a White or Black apart, the same isn't so when looking at cells, etc.

Not at this time, no. But that's part of my point: We don't have an adequate understanding of the differences.

2) I think cultural integration CAN BE wise... and in the context of American Black/White relations, I definately think it is wise.

Maybe. But you might be wrong, and nobody can prove otherwise.

3) Assuming we should integrate cultures to whatever degree, I think we CAN identify reasonable, natural, and beneficial ways of doing so. But I think the very idea of having different Black-White cultures can be mistaken. I happen to believe in an AMERICAN culture, that is Black and White combined.

Again, it's great that you believe those things, but believing doesn't make them so.

 

[cwjerome]

Hurtstotalktoyou: Nothing is 100%, but indeed the general scientific conclusions seem to indicate a negligable biological difference between races. In fact, as a white guy, I can have more genetic similarities with a black guy than another white dude. And much of the information I have come across includes Dr. J. Craig Venter's analysis, as head of the Celera Genomics Corp along with scientists at the National Institutes of Health.

I gather from statements like "We don't have an adequate understanding of the differences" that you seem to be griped in a mental paralysis or something... that without complete, foolproof understanding of genetics and racial differences, we can't hope to make race relations better than they are now.

As far as your belief that nobody can prove anything about cultural integration, I would agree. But that's not important. Few things such as this can be "proven," and that's not the attempt. The goal is to examine facts and reasoning and operate under best possible evidence. In other words, I can give you rationale as to why I believe as I do (and you can do your best to appraise it), but you'd be very foolish to discount issues like this out of "lack of proof." The social sciences don't operate like that... and I say again, it would be downright ignorant to believe we cannot derive any meaningful ideas, policies, or premises, or conclusions in matters of social and racial intergration simply because you cannot determine something with absolute proof.

Witling: You'll have to wait. I get back to your question tomorrow.

 

[Witling]

I wait with baited breath!

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: Witling
I wait with baited breath!

You got worms in your mouth?

 

[DaveSimmons]

Could the state of racial -primarily white and black- relations be better in the USA? Perhaps most people would argue "Yes"... but how?

Time.

Race relations have improved tremendously in the last 30 years by any measure you pick: economics (number of blacks in the middle class or above), blacks in positions of power in both government and corporations, film (leading men and women in mainstream films, Oscar wins and nominations), TV (lead and supporting roles), acceptance of biracial couples in both real life and in TV and films, on and on.

Yes there are a group of old white men at the top running things, but they'll die off and under them are a mix of men and women of all races waiting to move up.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Hurtstotalktoyou: Nothing is 100%, but indeed the general scientific conclusions seem to indicate a negligable biological difference between races. In fact, as a white guy, I can have more genetic similarities with a black guy than another white dude. And much of the information I have come across includes Dr. J. Craig Venter's analysis, as head of the Celera Genomics Corp along with scientists at the National Institutes of Health.

There is no such consensus.

Try this for some light reading. It's pretty detailed, but this quote can give you some idea of its purpose: "Genetic differentiation among the races has also led to some variation in pigmentation across races, but considerable variation within races remains, and there is substantial overlap for this feature. For example, it would be difficult to distinguish most Caucasians and Asians on the basis of skin pigment alone, yet they are easily distinguished by genetic markers." Moreover, the paper is co-authored by four very respectable scientists--two Ph.D.s and two M.D.s, and the lead author (or at least the first listed) a professional geneticist.

I gather from statements like "We don't have an adequate understanding of the differences" that you seem to be griped in a mental paralysis or something... that without complete, foolproof understanding of genetics and racial differences, we can't hope to make race relations better than they are now.

Hope, not expect.

As far as your belief that nobody can prove anything about cultural integration, I would agree. But that's not important. Few things such as this can be "proven," and that's not the attempt. The goal is to examine facts and reasoning and operate under best possible evidence. In other words, I can give you rationale as to why I believe as I do (and you can do your best to appraise it), but you'd be very foolish to discount issues like this out of "lack of proof." The social sciences don't operate like that... and I say again, it would be downright ignorant to believe we cannot derive any meaningful ideas, policies, or premises, or conclusions in matters of social and racial intergration simply because you cannot determine something with absolute proof.

I'm not talking about proof. I'm not denying gravity or mathematics, here. These are muddy waters. Past efforts, from old favorites like "separate but equal" to modern absurdities like "affirmative action," have failed immeasurably. While racist sentiments against blacks seem to be declining, racism against whites may be gaining strength. And although many unfair laws have been amended, blacks still fill our prisons and jails, and dominate the population below the ill-omened poverty line. Races still persist in a natural segregation; that is, whites associate mostly with whites, and blacks mostly with blacks.

We live in the "information age," but are we really so lucky as to know better than our parent generation? I see websites declaring flatly that Jews must be deported, and books preaching that we halt scientific advancement because of the musings of a 2000-year-old "apostle."

I'm not saying we shouldn't strive to better ourselves, but we must recognize our limitations and behave accordingly. Where the facts are unclear, we must be cautious.

 

[zendari]

The government isn't a solution to racism through forced integration or whatever. Change has to occur on its own.

 

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: zendari
The government isn't a solution to racism through forced integration or whatever. Change has to occur on its own.

No. Your entire statement has so many problems it makes me angry.

The government FORCED segregation throughout our country. RACIST governmnet policies lead to the oppression and segregation of black people in this country -- and those RACIST policies still have a very real and powerful affect on millions of people's lives.

The very structure of the city of Chicago results from racism. The locations of its universities, its train system, its 'public housing' and so forth came from racist policies. Blacks were forced out of their homes to make room for the university of illinois campus. The train system AVOIDS predominantly black neighborhoods. Public housing is concentrated in order to keep black people inside the 'black belt.' Chicago is a pretty vivid and fvcked up example of racism in this country. The more I learn about it, the more appalling it really is. Chicago has had so many oppurtunities to change the situation, but time and again they've opted not to do so. It's pretty sad, really.

So yeah, the government isn't the solution. It has clearly deomonstrated THAT.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: zendari
The government isn't a solution to racism through forced integration or whatever. Change has to occur on its own.

No. Your entire statement has so many problems it makes me angry.
...
So yeah, the government isn't the solution. It has clearly deomonstrated THAT.

?

 

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: zendari
The government isn't a solution to racism through forced integration or whatever. Change has to occur on its own.

No. Your entire statement has so many problems it makes me angry.
...
So yeah, the government isn't the solution. It has clearly deomonstrated THAT.

?

Angry sarcasm.

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: JacobJ
The very structure of the city of Chicago results from racism. The locations of its universities, its train system, its 'public housing' and so forth came from racist policies. Blacks were forced out of their homes to make room for the university of illinois campus. The train system AVOIDS predominantly black neighborhoods. Public housing is concentrated in order to keep black people inside the 'black belt.' Chicago is a pretty vivid and fvcked up example of racism in this country. The more I learn about it, the more appalling it really is. Chicago has had so many oppurtunities to change the situation, but time and again they've opted not to do so. It's pretty sad, really.

I look at this MetraRail map, And I see a pretty evenly spread out hub/spoke arrangement. Please show me where there are predominantly black neighborhoods being avoided.

http://metrarail.com/System_map/index.html

And if you meant the EL and not MetraRail, The red, green, orange and blue lines all serve the south and south west parts of town. This, for better or worse, is where the predominantly black, and Hispanic, communities are located.

http://www.transitchicago.com/maps/systemmaps.html

As far as public housing being 'in the black belt'. It was built there to give the occupants access to jobs in the downtown area. That's where most of the jobs are, that's where you should build the public housing. You don't put public housing out in Lake or DuPage county and then expect the occupants to have to cummute to downtown Chicago.

Now if you want to talk about the quality and upkeep of the Chicago public housing or the long standing tactics by real estate agents to sway minorities who weren't moving to public housing away from certain neighborhoods and into others, then I think you'll have a much better argument.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Witling
please, let us know where the self-proclaimed civil rights leaders failed.

I believe the civil rights leaders failed in many respects, but I'll focus on a couple and give some introductory reasoning.

One that stands out in my mind is the psychological shift in this country that leaders like Jesse Jackson, Al Shaprton, and many others of various stature and influence have exploited. MLK had bravely fought for Black equality and an end to discrimination legally and culturally... and this country is the better for it. It was a grand drama of guilt and innocence, shame and redemption. In fact, he properly used moral shame as the primary weapon.

The problem is after he died his apparant heirs distorted the movement. Suddenly there was only shame... and no redemption. Maybe it was because they saw it was a way to ensure their position. Maybe they were bitter. Maybe it was the easy way out. Maybe it was a combination of a multitude of reasons, but the end result has been a disastrous deviation from the rational nobility of MLK's initial efforts.

Here's why: The preoccupation with shame resulted in a perpetual redemptive process, which in effect made salvation impossible. It turned America into a self-consciously (and everlasting) shamed society where race is concerned which built an attitude and mechanism that became an obstacle to the rights Blacks had won in the 60s.

Here's how: In this newly created psychological paradigm, Whites live under a demand to prove a negative- that we are not racist. The effect of this is that society sees Black freedom as basically a White responsibility. This is partly why I titled this topic Race and Responsibility. The "shame-without-(real)-redemption" strategy of the new civil rights leaders put Black success and advancement largely in White hands. This has backfired for two obvious reasons.

First, it sets up the sacred taboo of Whites asking Blacks to be responsible for their own uplift. White redemption (which of course has no end, so it's really not redemption at all) is achieved by the cruel feat of imagining Blacks as aresponsible people, as if resonsibility has no relevance. It is exactly the rejection of the idea of Black responsibility that protects Whites from being labelled racists.

Second, many Black people themselves are slowly socialized to accept this idea of aresponsibility and dependence on the White man for his rights and happiness. I do believe there is ample evidence to support this observation. This idea that progress and success are contigent on interventions from White society basically creates a blaming vinctimstate that keeps the leaders relevant and the people down.

OK, that's enough for now. Hope others comment as well.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

In this newly created psychological paradigm, Whites live under a demand to prove a negative- that we are not racist. The effect of this is that society sees Black freedom as basically a White responsibility. This is partly why I titled this topic Race and Responsibility. The "shame-without-(real)-redemption" strategy of the new civil rights leaders put Black success and advancement largely in White hands.

I can see how you would feel that way, but it is not so. Intolerance to anti-black racism may very well be a creation of the white man.

Second, many Black people themselves are slowly socialized to accept this idea of aresponsibility and dependence on the White man for his rights and happiness. I do believe there is ample evidence to support this observation. This idea that progress and success are contigent on interventions from White society basically creates a blaming vinctimstate that keeps the leaders relevant and the people down.

If blacks are being socialized in an improper manner, that is the fault of their parents, not political leaders.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

I can see how you would feel that way, but it is not so. Intolerance to anti-black racism may very well be a creation of the white man.

Ok...? I'm not sure how this refutes what I said... actually, I'm not even sure it relates to what I said. Elaborate?

If blacks are being socialized in an improper manner, that is the fault of their parents, not political leaders.

You really think so? I'd be willing to bet the society and culture at large have a profound effect on how people grow up.

 

[Proletariat]

I think you are being very scathing towards civil rights leaders.

To them America is a harsh landscape. Every single great reformer in American history has been killed. MLK, X, RFK, JFK and I'd go even as far to say John Lennon.

The simple fact is American society as a whole is more willing to kill leftist leaders then right leaders.

Jesse Jackson was probably traumitized from seeing MLK die right in front of him. A man full of so much love shot with so much hate. God knows who did it too. There are many theories.

 

[piasabird]

I dont see any vast improvement in Race relations since 1970. In fact there may have been a widening of the gulf between the races. The Media and the Press bear a lot of the blame. Separate but equal may be a good option. It is kind of natural for people of the same race to live and congregate together. If you are honest and walk into any lunchroom you will often see people just choose to separate into groups. Just be truthful with yourself and admit it.

On the other hand the government could control all housing development and force developers to sell houses to black people by percentage or force desegregation in all housing.

A city gets more tax money if houses are sold to a richer clientel for more money. They get more tax money by doing this. It all boils down to money and taxes.

 

[ruffilb]

It's a lot harder in the old south: My high school is basically segregated - there are only 1 or 2 black students in ALL of my classes, and I'm in all honors/AP level classes. It's absurd.

In other areas, such as Florida, where I'm originally from, this isn't an issue at ALL.

The thing is, this is only history's fault. There's no one keeping black students out of AP classes any more than there are people keeping white students in them (except, of course, for the parents).

I think that culture needs to get on the ball here.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: ruffilb
I think that culture needs to get on the ball here.

Exactly.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: ruffilb
I think that culture needs to get on the ball here.

Exactly.

And that is what they are doing.

http://images.indymedia.org/imc/cleveland/toledomovie.wmv

The people are resisting their racist oppressors and the corporate thug police state as our founding fathers meant it to be.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: ruffilb
I think that culture needs to get on the ball here.

Exactly.

And that is what they are doing.

http://images.indymedia.org/imc/cleveland/toledomovie.wmv

The people are resisting their racist oppressors and the corporate thug police state as our founding fathers meant it to be.

No, the first 3 minutes of thea video showed calm, responsible people in a civilized protest against some racist asshats. Then some stupid fvcks decided to start throwing rocks and bricks at cars and it went downhill from there.

No sensible person could view that latter half of that video as decent citizens "resisting their racist oppressors" or doing anything even remotely related to what the founding fathers had in mind. That was pure thuggery and the actions of an uncontrolled, directionless mob, plain and simple. The only person with any sense was the woman with the "stop acting foolish" sign.

Thowing bricks at innocent passerbys and torching building are not the actions of anti-oppression - they are merely selfish acts of vandalism to boost one's own ego and show off. Anyone who portrays them as something "noble" is showing just how far out of touch with reality they truly are.



edit: And was that fvcking Darth Vader in that crowd? (time 2:38)