R520 Junk or Marketing Asleep at the wheel?

[Marsumane]

They probably would have released it by now, but are hooking a dustbuster to the thing and only taking the best chips. That would explain why they are waiting for their best chips to come out (overly high clock speed) combined with sudden need for dustbusters to hitch on them. Maybe this time the noisy beast will actually result in a win. 😉

-obviously im not serious, but wouldnt that be interesting 😛

 

[munchow2]

Well it was originally intended to be released in February had everything gone according to plan. It would have truly been the king then but it seems like Nvidia has ATI cornered at the moment pumping out new quality cards and features.

 

[munchow2]

Originally posted by: BigfootKevin
That little bird needs to go back to Canada 😛

j/k

That makes no sense at all.
It's like saying "your mama".

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: Kensai
If they don't get it out soon or if it's outperformed by the 7800GTX, they shouldn't expect to have any profits anytime soon. 😛

Err, there's more than one card that ATi might release, and, well, they can make profit off the mid range/low end as well as the high end.
Not beating the 7800GTX != not making money overall.

 

[ddogg]

Originally posted by: Matt2
ATI is going to be on par, probably a little better than the 7800GTX. Not bad, but months after the 7800GTX launch? I think ATI's mighty R520 is gonna become a dud when it should have been king, if it had been launched alongside the 7800GTX that is.

Nvidia has the 7800 Ultra sitting in their laps, waiting for R520. They've already established the mainstream (7800GT) and the high-end (7800GTX). Once R520 is released, they'll let the Ultra loose and have a next gen card for lower mid-range (7800GT), higher mid-range (7800GTX) and high-end (7800 Ultra). Not to mention 6800GTs and 6800 Ultras are gonna sell like hot-cakes once they reach the low-end.

BTW, I think crossfire is a dud and ATI is crapping their pants. Without crossfire, they can't compete with nvidia

couldnt have said this better...what good is a card that can probably push 10 more fps than the GTX when its so many months late. nvidia should be ready with their ultra card and might even release the 7600U/GT to seal the nail on the coffin.

 

[Spoonbender]

Wow, a lot of unfounded rumors and "I had a dream that the R520 will totally own the G70"... 🙂

We know what the G70 is capable of, we know r520 is 90nm and has been delayed again and again. And we know that yields still aren't very good (if they were, they wouldn't need to delay to stockpile cards). And finally, we know the R520 will use a dual-slot design. (Admittedly, that might have changed, since this information dates back to before the G70 launched)

My guess, based on this:
1: 90nm is tricky. Look at the Prescott. Pioneering smaller processes with high-end GPU's is tricky. Look at the NV30. There's a reason they usually introduce new processes in low-end/mainstream cards first. In other words, ATI is taking a lot of risk here. (One might wonder why, since they've always been more cautious than NVidia in this respect). But the question is, will it pay off for them?
2: The fact that they're taking so long to stockpile to avoid a paper launch most likely means that they're currently only picking the top cards. In other words, an "average" r520 is not enough for them. They obviously feel that they need to launch the r520 with all pipelines working or with extremely high clock speeds. That alone means that it won't be head and shoulders above the G70. If it was, they could get good yields by launching a card with pipelines disabled or the speed lowered to begin with. After all, at the moment, they only need to catch up with NVidia. Once they have a card out that comes near the G70, they can always start worrying about making something even faster. It's possible that the R520 will end up faster, but it won't be a lot faster.
The dual-slot fact seems to support this too. NVidia is actually taking it easy, they've launched the chip at speeds where a single-slot solution suffices. ATI seems to feel they need a dualslot solution just to keep up. Wouldn't it make sense then for NVidia to clock the hell out of the G70, pop a dualslot cooler on it, and release it? What is ATI going to do to respond? Invent triple-slot? 😉

Now, another piece of speculation. The G70 is absolutely huge, with over 300 million transistors. What do they need all that for? Surely, it's not just for the extra 8 pipelines and those minor improvements? Some sites have speculated that it's actually a 32 pipe design. If that's the case, I wouldn't bet on R520 being the faster architecture. But of course, this is just speculation based on the transistor count.

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: Matt2
ATI is going to be on par, probably a little better than the 7800GTX. Not bad, but months after the 7800GTX launch? I think ATI's mighty R520 is gonna become a dud when it should have been king, if it had been launched alongside the 7800GTX that is.

Nvidia has the 7800 Ultra sitting in their laps, waiting for R520. They've already established the mainstream (7800GT) and the high-end (7800GTX). Once R520 is released, they'll let the Ultra loose and have a next gen card for lower mid-range (7800GT), higher mid-range (7800GTX) and high-end (7800 Ultra). Not to mention 6800GTs and 6800 Ultras are gonna sell like hot-cakes once they reach the low-end.

BTW, I think crossfire is a dud and ATI is crapping their pants. Without crossfire, they can't compete with nvidia

When did the 7800GT become mainstream or mid range. Id call anything in the 7800 series high end just varying levels of it.

7600 will become mainstream while 7200 will become low end. Just as the same with the 6XXX series.

 

[malG]

"If you purchased a Radeon X850 XT in recent months, just close your browser window now. And if you're a corporate executive at a certain Canadian fabless semiconductor firm, you may want to bury your head. NVIDIA is now unleashing a card based on an ever so slightly cut down version of the G70 graphics processor at a substantial discount off the price of the GeForce 7800 GTX. " - techreport.com

 

[Ackmed]

Or they could reword that to say, if you bought a 6800U, you would feel the same way.

 

[lifeguard1999]

As mentioned above, there are several reasons ATI is delayed. However, I would like to point out something different. The high end produces very few sales and very few profits (even with its high margins). It is the mid to low end that produces the majority of the profits. Think Wal-Mart. If the R520 does beat the 7800 GTX, that is all nice and good for marketing. But just as the 7800GT/GTX is not the end of ATI, so the R520 will not be the end of Nvidia either. Nor can most people afford SLI/xFire.

Right now NVidia is taking advantage (as it should) to generate lots of press and separate rich people from their hard earned money with the 7800 series. What will be interesting to see is the 7200 and 7600 and how they perform. That is where NVidia (and ATI with their corresponding cards) will make their money.

Personally I bet the R520 beats NVidia in DirectX 9.0c while the 7800GTX wins in OpenGL.

 

[HDTVMan]

Sadly I believe ATI is going to get Owned this round by NVIDIA. If ATI's card was within 6 weeks of release I would think they would let some information out of the bag but with nothing I belive they are still having some major issues and hope that consumers wait it out. There arent even leaks from vendors and this is a bad sign.

But like most say very few top end cards sell. However at what cost does it take for ATI to make a next gen chip that doesnt perform at its peak and must be sold as a sub level chip with half the die lost to sub par yeilds? With all the tapouts on ATI's next gen there isnt going to be much room for profit if any. There is a rumor that yet another tap out is in the process. This will surely add to costs per chip in the end.

This isnt a good sign that ATI's mobo chipsets and SLI chips arent even talked about yet. The samples were released where are the chips? Are they even being fabbed yet? Nothing from Vendors. ATI is just a black hole of nothing lately and this can only mean there are more problems.

I would even wonder if NVIDIA has enough lead time to go to 65nm and skip 90nm all together.

ATI doesnt need to paper launch its stuff but it needs to get samples out to review sites if it wants to keep people from buying NVIDIA cards. The only reason I can see them not doing that is if the R520 is turning out to be a DUD.

I would bet ATI is rushing to TAP out R600 to see what it can do already like a hail mary play.

This is sad because without ATI the prices for cards will remain high and SLI mobos from NVIDIA will also remain high. Its rumored once ATI has a product in SLI that NVIDIA SLI mobos will instantly fall into the sub $100 area. This is why competition is important to us.

Come on ATI throw out a bone I mean accidental leak of information.

 

[Greenman]

I remember reading some years back that $200 was the price point at whitch card sales really took off. Is that still accurate?

 

[hans030390]

The problem with crossfire is that you need to buy a specific crossfire card...in which none are out yet. (or so i've heard, i could be wrong, correct me if i am).

I also heard that the R520 will come in agp format though? If so, that would be a big blow to Nvidia.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: hans030390
The problem with crossfire is that you need to buy a specific crossfire card...in which none are out yet. (or so i've heard, i could be wrong, correct me if i am).

I also heard that the R520 will come in agp format though? If so, that would be a big blow to Nvidia.

No Crossfire hardware is out yet.

I don't know if AGP matters or not anymore. To me it just seems wrong putting a $400-$500 video card on a single slot AGP motherboard.

People need to let AGP die. It has to cost companies money to engineer cards for these retro motherboards, I'd rather save $10 on a PCIE card than subsidize the dino-board market.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: hans030390
The problem with crossfire is that you need to buy a specific crossfire card...in which none are out yet. (or so i've heard, i could be wrong, correct me if i am).

I also heard that the R520 will come in agp format though? If so, that would be a big blow to Nvidia.

Last I heard you will need a Crossfire master card and a Crossfire edition motherboard. Eventually you will be able to use other boards but you will still need a "master card" which probably handles the dual card work.

 

[Burrbaby]

I'm a believer in Nvidia products and love the fact that ATI has kept up a consistent level of competition in the GPU field for the last few years.

I am a little worried about the XBOX360 though. If ATI is actually having as many problems as you all say they are, is Microsoft getting an inferior product for their new console? Will the GPU the Nvidia is currently shipping for PC's make ATI's XBOX360 solution look like a joke. It certainly is an important question considering ATI's console GPU is supposed to be out in a few months and last for a few years.

Any thoughts?

 

[Genx87]

People need to let AGP die quickly.

Most people who upgrade to a 7800 should also build a new machine around it.
new MBs are PCIE.

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: Genx87
People need to let AGP die quickly.

Most people who upgrade to a 7800 should also build a new machine around it.
new MBs are PCIE.

I have to agree (even though I'm still on an AGP platform myself 😛). With few exceptions (such as Socket 754 A64 users who still have pretty fast CPU's but only AGP slots), there aren't a whole lot of legitimate complaints in support of AGP versions. I've never quite understood the people who are eager to spend $500 on a high-end video card but then complain about having to spend $100 on a new motherboard too. 😕 In any case, I wouldn't even think about buying a motherboard without PCI-E these days...

 

[rbV5]

I've never quite understood the people who are eager to spend $500 on a high-end video card but then complain about having to spend $100 on a new motherboard too.

Obviously, just because you'll fork over $500 for your new graphics card, it would be prefererable to just drop it into your rig and go. Its not just $100 either. It could be another + $75 for the new 24 pin Power supply with dual 12v rails also. New CPU as well unless you're already running the proper socket with your existing CPU...new Ram maybe. Seems easily comprehensible to me.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001

Originally posted by: Genx87
People need to let AGP die quickly.

Most people who upgrade to a 7800 should also build a new machine around it.
new MBs are PCIE.

I have to agree (even though I'm still on an AGP platform myself 😛). With few exceptions (such as Socket 754 A64 users who still have pretty fast CPU's but only AGP slots), there aren't a whole lot of legitimate complaints in support of AGP versions. .

Even those guys could get a PCIE S754 motherboard and get on with it. AGP is on it's way out; I just can't see putting an expensive card on an AGP board anymore.

 

[orwell84]

Pci-e offers no real performance advantage except for SLI. Many people with more modest budgets do not think the current performance gains of a dual card solution are worth the additional cost....But I think now that so many PCI-e mobos are out at competitive prices that they should let AGP die.

Anyway, I think ATI needs to get some info, reviews and release dates out there even if it is just a paper launch. I think some people might be more inclined to wait if they knew what ATI will have to offer.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: Genx87
People need to let AGP die quickly.

Why? Less waste makes less pollution, so if someone does not feel the need to upgrade their mb and cpu, why bother?

 

[Pocatello]

What's ATi strategy? Will the company release an ultra high end videocard to beat the 7800GTX first, which will be too expensive for most people, and then something more affordable like the 7800 GT later on? Or ATi will release both at the same time, something cost around $600 to compete against the 7800GTX and another cost around $400 against the 7800GT? But of course neither the GF 7800GTX nor the GT will cost $600 or $400 respectively when the R520 comes out. Which is what I'm hoping for, more competition = lower prices.

 

[UltraWide]

Originally posted by: lifeguard1999
As mentioned above, there are several reasons ATI is delayed. However, I would like to point out something different. The high end produces very few sales and very few profits (even with its high margins). It is the mid to low end that produces the majority of the profits. Think Wal-Mart. If the R520 does beat the 7800 GTX, that is all nice and good for marketing. But just as the 7800GT/GTX is not the end of ATI, so the R520 will not be the end of Nvidia either. Nor can most people afford SLI/xFire.

Right now NVidia is taking advantage (as it should) to generate lots of press and separate rich people from their hard earned money with the 7800 series. What will be interesting to see is the 7200 and 7600 and how they perform. That is where NVidia (and ATI with their corresponding cards) will make their money.

Personally I bet the R520 beats NVidia in DirectX 9.0c while the 7800GTX wins in OpenGL.

EXACTLY.

What I would like to add though is that people like to associate with the winner.

If the 7800GTX is faster than the R520 then GeForce line will sell better than the Radeon line. That's why it matters to create a winning ultra high end product, so that all the rest of your company's products are associated with it.

 

[lifeguard1999]

Originally posted by: Pocatello
What's ATi strategy? Will the company release an ultra high end videocard to beat the 7800GTX first, which will be too expensive for most people, and then something more affordable like the 7800 GT later on? Or ATi will release both at the same time, something cost around $600 to compete against the 7800GTX and another cost around $400 against the 7800GT? But of course neither the GF 7800GTX nor the GT will cost $600 or $400 respectively when the R520 comes out. Which is what I'm hoping for, more competition = lower prices.

The 7800GTX is already going for $495.

Edit:
The Inq says that the low & mid end are being stockpiled right now by ATI. They are just waiting for the high end R520 to come out first. Then again, this is the Inq. They may, or may not, be right.