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R350 going into mass production
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That's my understanding, but who knows, considering the specs are yet unreleased.
On the topic of NV31 and NV34, they are taped out and expected to launch as scheduled, as nVidia stated at Comdex, 1 to 2 months after the release of the FX.
GTAudiophile, hearing you say someone is "Wrong" and a calling them "Fanboy" is just comedy, as you've been proven to be such so many times over. Reading your posts is like reading a dummied down version of the Inquirer (aka Teh Nerd Tabloid). Regurgitating FUD and parroting useless info seem to be your strong points, I'll look for meaningful insight elsewhere thanks.
Chiz
mchammer187
Diamond Member
i thought they were based on NV30 as well
have a link to back that up?
that has always been Nvidia's naming convention
and wouldnt NV35 have to come out before NV31 and 34 as well (if NV31 and 34 are based on NV35) they have always come out with the fastest card first
ie GF 4600 before the 4200 and the MXes?
PrinceXizor
Platinum Member
[/quote]Wrong, fanboy! NV31 and NV34 will compete against RV350, and that (plus R350, R400) are ATi's current next-gen products, not R300.[/quote]
hmm...now u are calling me a fanboy...hmm...intriguing...a little snippage from my very FIRST post in this thread...
Gee it sounds like I'm kissing nvidia's butt there doesn't it 😕
But anywho...moving on to the topic at hand....
NFS4 seems to sum it up nicely....however the 9500Pro competes with the Ti4400/4600 (it falls b/n the two) its really not comparable to a Ti4200 unless you O/C...at least from what I have read....
hmm...now u are calling me a fanboy...hmm...intriguing...a little snippage from my very FIRST post in this thread...
Gee it sounds like I'm kissing nvidia's butt there doesn't it 😕
But anywho...moving on to the topic at hand....
NFS4 seems to sum it up nicely....however the 9500Pro competes with the Ti4400/4600 (it falls b/n the two) its really not comparable to a Ti4200 unless you O/C...at least from what I have read....
apoppin
Lifer
***CONFIRMED*** (old news) The pot calls the kettle "black". 😛Originally posted by: chizow
Originally posted by: apoppin
And the Ti4200 is OLD news and a soon to be "discontinued" card (much like the Radeon 8500). Neither ATI nor nVidia makes much money from their "old" stuff. 😉
LoL...so blinded by bias.
I guess the Ti4200 is so "OLD" and unprofitable that it sustained nVidia's market dominance the last 6 months despite ATi's triumphant release of the 9700pro? Comparing the Ti4200 to the 8500 is ridiculous, in fact, ATi still doesn't have a competing part in the $100-$150 range on par with the Ti4200. The 9500 nonpro is creeping down to that price range, but its still not there yet, and has only been released for a few months. The Ti4200 will continue to bring in substantial revenue until the NV31 and NV34 replace it, and even then it will still be a viable value solution.
Chiz
😀
The 8500 is the direct competitor of the Ti4200 . . . both are now "old" DX8 cards. ATI has "repackaged" the 8500 as "something else" and it is "discontinued" except by OEMS. If nVidia weren't SO LATE with the FX, the 4200 would be discontinued also (or repackaged into the AGP 8X "version").
Do you really think ATI and nVidia are actually making money with these old cards? IMO, they are just trying to "get rid of" old inventory to make room for the PROFIT-making DX9 NEW cards. 😉
EDIT: ATI DID steal market share from nVidia this last quarter. We won't really see it "get messy" 'till this quarter as nVidia slips further.
PrinceXizor
Platinum Member
rrriggghhtttt 😉
Here's a snippet from a Digi-Times article posted in the AT News section....
Seems to me NV31 and NV34 are stripped down versions (i.e. simplified) how would these compete with the R350 instead of the NV30? unless you mean that ATI's "stripped down" versions of the R350 will compete with the NV31 and NV34...then that makes sense...
mchammer187
Diamond Member
do you mean RV300?
if so than yes the Ti4600
RV300 = 9500 Pro
PrinceXizor
Platinum Member
Originally posted by: apoppin
***CONFIRMED*** (old news) The pot calls the kettle "black". 😛Originally posted by: chizow
Originally posted by: apoppin
And the Ti4200 is OLD news and a soon to be "discontinued" card (much like the Radeon 8500). Neither ATI nor nVidia makes much money from their "old" stuff. 😉
LoL...so blinded by bias.
I guess the Ti4200 is so "OLD" and unprofitable that it sustained nVidia's market dominance the last 6 months despite ATi's triumphant release of the 9700pro? Comparing the Ti4200 to the 8500 is ridiculous, in fact, ATi still doesn't have a competing part in the $100-$150 range on par with the Ti4200. The 9500 nonpro is creeping down to that price range, but its still not there yet, and has only been released for a few months. The Ti4200 will continue to bring in substantial revenue until the NV31 and NV34 replace it, and even then it will still be a viable value solution.
Chiz
😀
The 8500 is the direct competitor of the Ti4200 . . . both are now "old" DX8 cards. ATI has "repackaged" the 8500 as "something else" and it is "discontinued" except by OEMS. If nVidia weren't SO LATE with the FX, the 4200 would be discontinued also (or repackaged into the AGP 8X "version").
Do you really think ATI and nVidia are actually making money with these old cards? IMO, they are just trying to "get rid of" old inventory to make room for the PROFIT-making DX9 NEW cards. 😉
EDIT: ATI DID steal market share from nVidia this last quarter. We won't really see it "get messy" 'till this quarter as nVidia slips further.
um...the whole Ti4200/4400/4600 are all based on the NV25 core and these competed with the Radeon 8500 and its iterations with the Ti4600 coming out well on top. ATI's new R300 core and nvidias new NV30 core do battle as well as their sub-iterations (NV31 and NV34 for nvidia and Radeon 9700 non-pro, 9500pro, et.al). Now ATI comes out with a small tweak to its core making it the R350 with higher clock-speed, the possibiltiy of 256MB of memory and 2 textures per pipleline (all of this is alledgeded since there are no published specs). Hopefully this clears up everything....
Wouldn't it be more *fun* to actually wait for the spec's from nVidia and ATI on their cards rather than endlessly speculate what these spec's will be.
the reality is that none of you know what the final spec's will be. You are arguing over "vaporware".
NV31, NV35, NV52, NV77...I mean c'mon, let's wait for some facts here...
the reality is that none of you know what the final spec's will be. You are arguing over "vaporware".
NV31, NV35, NV52, NV77...I mean c'mon, let's wait for some facts here...
Um, no, it was a direct competitor of the GF3 Ti line. If you meant to say it could finally compete with a GF4 after a year of driver revisions, thats a different story. 😛 In fact, I still find it most compared to a GF3 Ti500, which is most certainly discontinued. Repackaging the 8500 as a 9100 makes little sense with the 9500 available and RV350 on the horizon. ATi's trying to fill a market niche with a dated part that simply can't compete.
Again, I have to question your industry knowledge here. Yes, there is no doubt in my mind nVidia is making money hand over fist on a Ti4200. The A3 revision GF4 core yields are probably close to the 90% mark, so other than fab/mfg. costs (streamlined and perfected at this point), every GF4 core they ship out is profit less the usual overhead. Sunk costs like R&D have long been amortized and calculated into the margins of each core they ship out (in that sense, it is "old-tech").
Also, ATi is probably breaking even right about now with their R300 cores. Low yields = high production costs = low margins. ATi was unable to sustain high enough yields on the R300 core until a good 2 months after its release to produce it en masse. It was released, but it was hard to find and expensive. Further evidence was their delays on the 9500/pro line, which we've all seen use identical R300 cores (possibly binned). The even later roll-out of the 9700 (only a month and a half ago) shows they were finally able to sustain 3 distinct product lines, but realized their need to fill a market segment in the $200 range with the 9500 line. So what does this mean? ATi was willing to sell their R300 cores at a lower MARGIN in exchange for higher VOLUME. It might take 2x9500 sales to generate the same profit as a 9700pro, but when you sell 10x9500's for every 9700pro, the reasoning is quite clear.
As for DX9, I'm sure everyone is going out to buy a DX9 compliant part so they can run the ATi demos
No, the industry as a whole grew. ATi experienced a slight % increase in growth, but that is all relative to the companies overrall size. nVidia retained its "piece of the pie", so ATi may have picked up their market share from Sis, Intel, 3dlabs et. al. As for claims of it getting messy, isn't that what you said 6 months ago? Maybe next year, or the year after that, or the one after that. 😛
Chiz
Originally posted by: chizow
Um, no, it was a direct competitor of the GF3 Ti line. If you meant to say it could finally compete with a GF4 after a year of driver revisions, thats a different story. 😛 In fact, I still find it most compared to a GF3 Ti500, which is most certainly discontinued. Repackaging the 8500 as a 9100 makes little sense with the 9500 available and RV350 on the horizon. ATi's trying to fill a market niche with a dated part that simply can't compete.
Again, I have to question your industry knowledge here. Yes, there is no doubt in my mind nVidia is making money hand over fist on a Ti4200. The A3 revision GF4 core yields are probably close to the 90% mark, so other than fab/mfg. costs (streamlined and perfected at this point), every GF4 core they ship out is profit less the usual overhead. Sunk costs like R&D have long been amortized and calculated into the margins of each core they ship out (in that sense, it is "old-tech").
Also, ATi is probably breaking even right about now with their R300 cores. Low yields = high production costs = low margins. ATi was unable to sustain high enough yields on the R300 core until a good 2 months after its release to produce it en masse. It was released, but it was hard to find and expensive. Further evidence was their delays on the 9500/pro line, which we've all seen use identical R300 cores (possibly binned). The even later roll-out of the 9700 (only a month and a half ago) shows they were finally able to sustain 3 distinct product lines, but realized their need to fill a market segment in the $200 range with the 9500 line. So what does this mean? ATi was willing to sell their R300 cores at a lower MARGIN in exchange for higher VOLUME. It might take 2x9500 sales to generate the same profit as a 9700pro, but when you sell 10x9500's for every 9700pro, the reasoning is quite clear.
As for DX9, I'm sure everyone is going out to buy a DX9 compliant part so they can run the ATi demos
No, the industry as a whole grew. ATi experienced a slight % increase in growth, but that is all relative to the companies overrall size. nVidia retained its "piece of the pie", so ATi may have picked up their market share from Sis, Intel, 3dlabs et. al. As for claims of it getting messy, isn't that what you said 6 months ago? Maybe next year, or the year after that, or the one after that. 😛
Chiz
To revisit the past a little bit. didn't ATI hold the market crown up until about 12 months ago?? isn't nvidia taking the market crown reasonably recent?? they had the performance crown for several years before they took the market crown as i recall it.
it seems to me that at this point we have 2 very strong competitors (Technically and Market wise) which is a good thing. anyone here that doesn't think so is just deceiving themselves or is a major fanboi.
AT this point ATI is very competitive w/ Nvidia in most facets of the game. Hey, what's not to like about that. look at what AMD forced Intel to do w/ cpu prices and that's w/o ever coming anywhere near ATI's marketing success.
Conclusion, GOOD TIMES ahead for gamers. 🙂
PrinceXizor
Platinum Member
Actually DX9 requires FPU throughout the process and 8 pixel pipelines (along with many other things) so only the high-end cards i.e. 9700 Pro and 9500 Pro are DX9 compatable from ATI (as far as I am aware) and the FX is DX9 compatable. What IS happening is everyone tweaking their cards to make them 8XAGP compatable....and in defense of GT...I'm the one who said it could "potentially" get messy, IF ATI's prices drop enough due to the R350 that they start competing with nvidia's in the mid-range market.....we shall wait and see....
I believe Intel held the market crown since tracking the industry began; ATi and nVidia both held solid marketshare around 20%. The MX line (as often as it is criticized) put nVidia on top. The easiest market research one can do is to look at what the top 10 OEM/system integrators are putting in their boxes.
Chiz
Chiz
GTaudiophile
Lifer
You're as much as an nVidia fanboy as I am an ATi fanboy. You've been defending this DOA, 6-month late card since the day it came out.
You say, ATi's trying to fill a market niche with a dated part that simply can't compete. Which cards are you referring to? Are you calling R300 dated?
PrinceXizor
Platinum Member
I have no numbers to back me up...I'm sure others do....but hasn't nvidia held the marketshare since the Riva TNT2 in like 1999? I'm curious...
From ATI's own archives
according to this press release ATI held the market crown in 1998. i don't have any figures after that.
according to this press release ATI held the market crown in 1998. i don't have any figures after that.
mchammer187
Diamond Member
you neglected the fact that he currently owns and uses a radeon 9700
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