Discussion Quo vadis Apple Macs - Intel, AMD and/or ARM CPUs? ARM it is!

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moinmoin

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Jun 1, 2017
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Due to popular demand I thought somebody should start a proper thread on this pervasive topic. So why not do it myself? ;)

For nearly a decade now Apple has treated their line of Mac laptops, AIOs and Pro workstations more of a stepchild. Their iOS line of products have surpassed it in market size and profit. Their dedicated Mac hardware group was dissolved. Hardware and software updates has been lackluster.

But for Intel Apple clearly is still a major customer, still offering custom chips not to be had outside of Apple products. Clearly Intel is eager to at all costs keep Apple as a major showcase customer.

On the high end of performance Apple's few efforts to create technological impressive products using Intel parts increasingly fall flat. The 3rd gen of MacPros going up to 28 cores could have wowed the audience in earlier years, but when launched in 2019 it already faced 32 core Threadripper/Epyc parts, with 64 core updates of them already on the horizon. A similar fate appears to be coming for the laptops as well, with Ryzen Mobile 4000 besting comparable Intel solutions across the board, with run of the mill OEMs bound to surpass Apple products in battery life. A switch to AMD shouldn't even be a big step considering Apple already has a close work relationship with them, sourcing custom GPUs from them like they do with CPUs from Intel.

On the low end Apple is pushing iPadOS into becoming a workable mutitasking system, with decent keyboard and, most recently, mouse support. Considering the much bigger audience familiar with the iOS mobile interface and App Store, it may make sense to eventually offer a laptop form factor using the already tweaked iPadOS.

By the look of all things Apple Mac products are due to continue stagnating. But just like for Intel, the status quo for Mac products feels increasingly untenable.
 
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eek2121

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Want me to really blow your mind? Even the rumors haven't claimed Apple is moving their popular Mac lines to ARM. Read between the lines. The best I can tell they MAY release an ARM based laptop...quite possibly running macOS (if we are lucky), however, everything I've seen indicates that they aren't moving any of their existing product lines currently.

The move from 68k ot PPC was a no-brainer, the move from PPC to x86 was a no-brainer. Both allowed apple to drastically increase performance. As much as we'd all (yes, including me) salivate over a big fat high performance ARM chip, thus far we haven't seen one. I'm sure the A14 will perform better, but I also know (without going into details... :)) that Zen 4 will take CPU efficiency and performance to another level entirely.

The only reasons I can see Apple moving to ARM are: a) They control the entire stack, end to end and POSSIBLY b) Their contract with Intel forbids them from working with AMD, but does NOT forbid them from using their own architecture (or another architecture entirely). Only Apple knows for sure, of course. I know a bit more then I can say of course, but this post lays down the gist of it.
 

jpiniero

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Oct 1, 2010
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Want me to really blow your mind? Even the rumors haven't claimed Apple is moving their popular Mac lines to ARM. Read between the lines. The best I can tell they MAY release an ARM based laptop...quite possibly running macOS (if we are lucky), however, everything I've seen indicates that they aren't moving any of their existing product lines currently.

Currently... yeah. That's what WWDC is for, to announce their plans.
 
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Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Want me to really blow your mind? Even the rumors haven't claimed Apple is moving their popular Mac lines to ARM. Read between the lines. The best I can tell they MAY release an ARM based laptop...quite possibly running macOS (if we are lucky), however, everything I've seen indicates that they aren't moving any of their existing product lines currently.

The move from 68k ot PPC was a no-brainer, the move from PPC to x86 was a no-brainer. Both allowed apple to drastically increase performance. As much as we'd all (yes, including me) salivate over a big fat high performance ARM chip, thus far we haven't seen one. I'm sure the A14 will perform better, but I also know (without going into details... :)) that Zen 4 will take CPU efficiency and performance to another level entirely.

The only reasons I can see Apple moving to ARM are: a) They control the entire stack, end to end and POSSIBLY b) Their contract with Intel forbids them from working with AMD, but does NOT forbid them from using their own architecture (or another architecture entirely). Only Apple knows for sure, of course. I know a bit more then I can say of course, but this post lays down the gist of it.
They are releasing a laptop: MacBook, and a desktop - possibly entry level iMac.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

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Nov 14, 2014
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Apple will move to whatever ISA/manufacturer they believe will allow them to build the products they want to build. If someone else is consistently delivering impressive performance at the TDP(s) they’re looking for a decade from now, they’ll switch again.

What's the point of performance if it's not going towards where it truly counts which is lower-level code ? Some programmers actually put real effort into optimizing their code for a specific architecture so if it's anyone who cares about performance metrics then it's specifically those groups that Apple needs to impress.

If Apple has no intention for programmers to truly discover how powerful their hardware can be like you imply then how can they possibly hope to keep up with either AMD or Intel where programmers will just happily optimize away any potential performance deficits on their architecture ?

AMD and Intel are committed to taking on the burden of maintaining x86 so that they can take off the programmer's burden of maintaining low level code but where is Apple's commitment for doing the same with their ARM implementation ? Do you realize just how much of a nightmare it is to develop on Apple platforms when programmers have to constantly refactor low level parts of their codebase because of a lack of guarantee from an insane platform vendor that your newly released software won't break in under a decade ?
 

dacostafilipe

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Oct 10, 2013
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They are releasing a laptop: MacBook, and a desktop - possibly entry level iMac.

IMO, this will not happen.

They need to migrate everything to ARM in +- 1 years with a SoC that outperforms existing stuff but a large margin for companies to have a reason to upgrade. Edit: If not, a lot of companies would have fragmented ecosystems and that's a big issue.

If I had to guess, I would say they will release a faster iPad with an attached flip-keyboard and call it iPad Flip/Go/Whatever ... and kill the Chromebook market :p
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
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IMO, this will not happen.

They need to migrate everything to ARM in +- 1 years with a SoC that outperforms existing stuff but a large margin for companies to have a reason to upgrade. Edit: If not, a lot of companies would have fragmented ecosystems and that's a big issue.

If I had to guess, I would say they will release a faster iPad with an attached flip-keyboard and call it iPad Flip/Go/Whatever ... and kill the Chromebook market :p
This is EXACTLY what is happening. 12 core SoC that is ARM based will be lower in performance than ULV x86 chips from MacBook Air and MacBook Pro. Here is the killing of the hopes and dreams of those believing ARM will soon replace x86 everywhere.

From 7:23. Direct quote from the horses mouth:
Marc Gurman says that Apple is developing multiple chips, that are slated for Entry Level, 12 inch MacBook, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH INTEL

The same Marc Gurman, who reported this said that those ARM chips have 8 large cores, and 4 efficiency cores.

Apple is not moving their whole lineup to ARM. They are developing seperate lineup of desktop computers, that are ARM based. Those computers will be MacBook and Entry level iMac.

At this very point its abundantly clear what is going to happen.
 

dacostafilipe

Senior member
Oct 10, 2013
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Apple is not moving their whole lineup to ARM. They are developing seperate lineup of desktop computers, that are ARM based. Those computers will be MacBook and Entry level iMac.

Who would buy an entry level ARM iMac? It's not portable so nobody cares about the power usage. Because it's entry level, a 6c would be more than enough for all possible use-cases and if we look at Intel 10th Gen it's not even that difficult to cool. Same goes for the Mac Mini.

Only possible reason I see, is price. But would Apple really go budget? hmmm ;)
 

Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Who would buy an entry level ARM iMac? It's not portable so nobody cares about the power usage. Because it's entry level, a 6c would be more than enough for all possible use-cases and if we look at Intel 10th Gen it's not even that difficult to cool. Same goes for the Mac Mini.

Only possible reason I see, is price. But would Apple really go budget? hmmm ;)
The point of Entry level product is that it is Entry Level - low price, low performance.

For example who would buy such product? Those who rely on Apple services and want a device that gives it to them. Those who do extremely basic stuff: browse the web, listen to Apple Music, want desktop access to iCloud. Need Office suites. People who do not need Thunderbolt 3 connection. People who need a computer for Education. In essence. Glorified Apple ChromeBooks.

ARM chips fit the bill perfectly. Even from Apple.

And if there is needed more proof that even Apple ARM architecture is not ready for mainstream use - there is no better proof, than the news that the laptop that will get those ARM chips, is MacBook. Not MacBook Pro, not even MacBook Air. MacBook. The basic-est of the basic Apple laptops.

Entry level iMac, that costs 1099$, has dual core ULV CPU, 1080p IPS display with 1 TB 5400 RPM(!) spinning Hard Drive.

What is needed more for computers like this?
 

amrnuke

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Apr 24, 2019
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The point of Entry level product is that it is Entry Level - low price, low performance.

For example who would buy such product? Those who rely on Apple services and want a device that gives it to them. Those who do extremely basic stuff: browse the web, listen to Apple Music, want desktop access to iCloud. Need Office suites. People who do not need Thunderbolt 3 connection. People who need a computer for Education. In essence. Glorified Apple ChromeBooks.

ARM chips fit the bill perfectly. Even from Apple.

And if there is needed more proof that even Apple ARM architecture is not ready for mainstream use - there is no better proof, than the news that the laptop that will get those ARM chips, is MacBook. Not MacBook Pro, not even MacBook Air. MacBook. The basic-est of the basic Apple laptops.

Entry level iMac, that costs 1099$, has dual core ULV CPU, 1080p IPS display with 1 TB 5400 RPM(!) spinning Hard Drive.

What is needed more for computers like this?
Agree, most people are using Macbook Air for the same thing they use the iPad for. When people eventually pay $999 for an ARM Macbook Air, the only difference they'll notice is that it's faster than the dual core i3 chip that's in the base model currently.
 

Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Agree, most people are using Macbook Air for the same thing they use the iPad for. When people eventually pay $999 for an ARM Macbook Air, the only difference they'll notice is that it's faster than the dual core i3 chip that's in the base model currently.
MacBook Air will sit above MacBook in Apple lineup. The point of MacBook, which will have 12 inch display is to be low-cost, entry level option for people who need computer for extremely basic tasks.

MacBook is the one which will have ARM Chips. MacBook Air and MBP will stay with x86. For now.
 

dacostafilipe

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Oct 10, 2013
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There's no need for an ARM iMac in what you said. A 9th or 10th Gen Intel Quad would be fast enough and not even that expensive, even in 2021.

Agree, most people are using Macbook Air for the same thing they use the iPad for. When people eventually pay $999 for an ARM Macbook Air, the only difference they'll notice is that it's faster than the dual core i3 chip that's in the base model currently.

With the resources Apple invested into the iPad, why would hey replace it with an Macbook Air? Most people know what an iPad is, but the same can't be said for the Macbook Air.
 

amrnuke

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MacBook Air will sit above MacBook in Apple lineup. The point of MacBook, which will have 12 inch display is to be low-cost, entry level option for people who need computer for extremely basic tasks.

MacBook is the one which will have ARM Chips. MacBook Air and MBP will stay with x86. For now.
I think my point is that the current entry-level Macbook - the Macbook Air - the current base chip would be blown away by an A13 for common tasks like internet, email, office suite. So even a lower-tier model than that would do great too.
 

Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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This is EXACTLY what is happening. 12 core SoC that is ARM based will be lower in performance than ULV x86 chips from MacBook Air and MacBook Pro.

Huh? What are you smoking to falsely believe that the x86 chips in the Macbook Air are faster than Apple's phone SoCs? Not sure what the current chip is in the Macbook Pro and how exactly it compares to the A13 cores on a single threaded basis, but if it is behind it is by a single digit percentage. The A13 easily beats the CPU in the Air.

Having 8 cores means it could match or exceed any mobile x86 CPU in multithreaded code as well.
 
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Thala

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Huh? What are you smoking to falsely believe that the x86 chips in the Macbook Air are faster than Apple's phone SoCs? Not sure what the current chip is in the Macbook Pro and how exactly it compares to the A13 cores on a single threaded basis, but if it is behind it is by a single digit percentage. The A13 easily beats the CPU in the Air.

Having 8 cores means it could match or exceed any mobile x86 CPU in multithreaded code as well.

Precisely, an 8 core A14X will likely blow anything away, that is existing today in the x86 area with comparable power envelope.
 
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Glo.

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Huh? What are you smoking to falsely believe that the x86 chips in the Macbook Air are faster than Apple's phone SoCs? Not sure what the current chip is in the Macbook Pro and how exactly it compares to the A13 cores on a single threaded basis, but if it is behind it is by a single digit percentage. The A13 easily beats the CPU in the Air.

Having 8 cores means it could match or exceed any mobile x86 CPU in multithreaded code as well.
Let me melt people's minds even more. Straight from the horses mouth, which is Mark Gurman who brought the news about ARM Macs.

"The transition to in-house Apple processor designs would likely begin with a new laptop because the company’s first custom Mac chips won’t be able to rival the performance Intel provides for high-end MacBook Pros, iMacs and the Mac Pro desktop computer. "
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...sell-macs-with-its-own-chips-starting-in-2021 11th paragraph of their analysis.

So basically, according to even Apple themselves, those ARM cores are not fast enough to compete with Intel x86 CPUs.

And Gurman then goes on and talks about how Apple wants to tackle competition with Intel.

"By doubling or quadrupling the amount of cores Intel offers."

So, no guys. Put your hopes and dreams down. ARM is not faster than x86, even if some people on this forum claim otherwise.

Yeah, 8 ARM cores blowing away 8 x86 cores. Kek.
 
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shiznit

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Nov 16, 2004
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Let me melt people's minds even more. Straight from the horses mouth, which is Mark Gurman who brought the news about ARM Macs.

"The transition to in-house Apple processor designs would likely begin with a new laptop because the company’s first custom Mac chips won’t be able to rival the performance Intel provides for high-end MacBook Pros, iMacs and the Mac Pro desktop computer. "
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...sell-macs-with-its-own-chips-starting-in-2021 11th paragraph of their analysis.

So basically, according to even Apple themselves, those ARM cores are not fast enough to compete with Intel x86 CPUs.

And Gurman then goes on and talks about how Apple wants to tackle competition with Intel.

"By doubling or quadrupling the amount of cores Intel offers."

So, no guys. Put your hopes and dreams down. ARM is not faster than x86, even if some people on this forum claim otherwise.

Yeah, 8 ARM cores blowing away 8 x86 cores. Kek.

Neoverse N1 is keeping up with Cascade Lake pretty well and Apple's cores are wider. I think the "won't rival" comment has more to do with burst frequency and 3rd-party software optimization than IPC.
 

DrMrLordX

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Apr 27, 2000
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If I had to guess, I would say they will release a faster iPad with an attached flip-keyboard and call it iPad Flip/Go/Whatever ... and kill the Chromebook market :p

Most Chromebooks are cheap. Really, really cheap. Apple won't aim that low. They might kill the high-end Chromebook market, but those things are such bad deals anyway that that market needs some competition.

Neoverse N1 is keeping up with Cascade Lake pretty well

A hypothetical A14x (or whatever Apple calls it) would be competing with Alder Lake-P in 2021. I don't think we can extrapolate much useful information about that matchup from a restricted benchmark on AWS using nothing but SPEC for Graviton2 and Cascade Lake (and Naples).
 

Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Neoverse N1 is keeping up with Cascade Lake pretty well and Apple's cores are wider. I think the "won't rival" comment has more to do with burst frequency and 3rd-party software optimization than IPC.
Can you show me an application that uses SPEC for Transcoding, video editing, photography, or sound work?

Or its not "real world application"?

It only keeps up in SPEC. Not Photoshop, not DaVinci Resolve, not Logic Pro, not Final Cut Pro X, not Blender. Which should be the MAIN focus of all of the reviews.
 

naukkis

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Jun 5, 2002
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Can you show me an application that uses SPEC for Transcoding, video editing, photography, or sound work?

Or its not "real world application"?

It only keeps up in SPEC. Not Photoshop, not DaVinci Resolve, not Logic Pro, not Final Cut Pro X, not Blender. Which should be the MAIN focus of all of the reviews.

Ipad Pro keeps up pretty well against even high-power Intel laptop chips, and is performing way better than any ULV chip from Intel. That rumored Mac-chip is at least twice as powerful so it's pretty much guaranteed that they will perform class above anything ULV Intel can offer.
 
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Glo.

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Ipad Pro keeps up pretty well against even high-power Intel laptop chips, and is performing way better than any ULV chip from Intel. That rumored Mac-chip is at least twice as powerful so it's pretty much guaranteed that they will perform class above anything ULV Intel can offer.
iPad Pro Apps use HARDWARE DECODERS in the SoC's. Not the CPU cores, themselves.

Apple genuinely has "Reality Distortion Field".

P.S. That rumored 8/4 Core Big.LITTLE design is going to be exactly the same under 7W's of power.

Why? Its going to be fit in PASSIVELY cooled 12 inch MacBook.
 
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Ajay

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Jan 8, 2001
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Yeah, 8 ARM cores blowing away 8 x86 cores. Kek.
So long as Apple sticks with LP designs, that would be the logical conclusion. I wonder if, at some point, Apple pivots an makes an HP design design for higher performance products. That would make for an interesting comparison.
In the mean time, leveraging their ability to exercise full control over their hardware and operating system, will yield a bigger bang for the given raw performance that we'd see in the x86 world. Apple also has a strong relationship with some keep software developers in the creative space that both could leverage to use specific hardware acceleration features (like Adobe and quicksync on Intel).