Quite impressed with Ubuntu 7.04 Beta

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drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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What would be the use flag for disabling/enabling non-free licensed software?
Or how about compiling software against GnuTLS instead of OpenSSL to avoid the OpenSSL gpl incompatabilities?
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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No, they host the source, but they don't ship it in the default distro, of course they dont ship gnome, kde, or anything unless you tell it to. And if your use flags do not include dvd playback support, they are not going to install libdvdcss

But they do distribute it and that's the issue so saying that they don't ship dvd support is a lie.
 

Brazen

Diamond Member
Jul 14, 2000
4,259
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
The difference between that and just hosting it was what I was making fun of. Basically they are doing the same thing. Gentoo doesn't ship dvd support (or support for anything) by default.

So Gentoo doesn't host the source for libdvdcss and instead downloads the source directly from the upstream URL every time?

No, it opens up a session with the developer's workstation and he types the source directly into your computer.
 

greylica

Senior member
Aug 11, 2006
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That's the worries we have about proprietary software. Mandriva solved their own problem paying royalties to use the proprietary stuff in their Linux distro. But with another distributions we have to think about this or then use at least one box of windows to convert everything to free formats. Using a box of Windows to convert everything to free file formats seems to solve the majority of problems, ( the royalties are already payed ) and then you can go.

The real problem I am seeing in the future is Microsoft trying to close the gap with their cripto drivers, cripto communications, cripto this, cripto that. They are forcing a way to tie hardware manufactures and push them to a wall where they will only produce hardware tied to windows in a manner that the hardware will not function very well with other systems without paying royalties to their useless crap .
The software until here , is not a great problem anymore, because one way or another, Linux programmers find a way to communicate proprietary software with free software. A sample of this, is the explorer switch for EXT2 in windows, if we cannot read and write to NTFS, NTFS can read and write to EXT2.
Most of the systems today one way or another will face a standard proposed to solve the interoperability problems. The way Microsoft is using to tie hardware is a complete cheating, I don't know if the major hardware manufacturers for Video Cards, Sound Cards, or Motherboards will complain with this, but the pressure is getting harder every day, did you see the new hardware communication standards for Windows Vista Video cards ? Useless for the consumer, only add more cost with useless technology. ( chips are getting cheaper, then they want to put crap to add more cost )
They want to put consumer in charge more and more. the more cheaper the cards are getting, the more they are trying to invent crap like crypto hardware to get up the prices, selling "new" technologies.
Well, may be this could be the better way, sooner someone on the industry will produce things exclusively for Linux, and then what will happen if these things produce better results than in windows ?
Boooommmmmm.
Someone in Microsoft will throw out the cripto stuff to get Windows faster like Linux, and then ?

The consumer was in charge again, but no one noticed...
They all loose, Microsoft didn't lost a cent, you payed for all of their crazy trip to f**k consumers of their own stuff.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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Using a box of Windows to convert everything to free file formats seems to solve the majority of problems, ( the royalties are already payed ) and then you can go.

Using a Windows box solves no such problem, i.e. installing VLC on Windows is just as illegal as on Linux if you don't pay the proper licenses yourself.

The real problem I am seeing in the future is Microsoft trying to close the gap with their cripto drivers, cripto communications, cripto this, cripto that. They are forcing a way to tie hardware manufactures and push them to a wall where they will only produce hardware tied to windows in a manner that the hardware will not function very well with other systems without paying royalties to their useless crap .

First, it's crypto with a 'y' and second MS implemented the DRM in order to satisfy the media and hardware companies.

The software until here , is not a great problem anymore, because one way or another, Linux programmers find a way to communicate proprietary software with free software. A sample of this, is the explorer switch for EXT2 in windows, if we cannot read and write to NTFS, NTFS can read and write to EXT2.
Most of the systems today one way or another will face a standard proposed to solve the interoperability problems. The way Microsoft is using to tie hardware is a complete cheating, I don't know if the major hardware manufacturers for Video Cards, Sound Cards, or Motherboards will complain with this, but the pressure is getting harder every day, did you see the new hardware communication standards for Windows Vista Video cards ? Useless for the consumer, only add more cost with useless technology. ( chips are getting cheaper, then they want to put crap to add more cost )

Oh please, MS has made he API available for IFS drivers along as I can remember and please what "hardware communication standards" is MS forcing upon manufacturers?

Please, greylica you're making sh!t up as you go along, if you have any real sources please share them because otherwise you look like a raving lunatic.
 

greylica

Senior member
Aug 11, 2006
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What I'm telling , is if you pay for a software that converts to a format that can be understandable to softwares that can convert to free file formats you can go out this problem, I'm not talking specifcally about VLC, I am talking specifically about programs such as Itunes that can convert Wave to Mp3 for example ( altough I know that MP3 support in Linux is legal only when you use Mandriva or other distros that already payed fraunhofer institute ), or then Nero OEM that can extract wave files that can be converted to Ogg free format. If you have the original media, no problem could be found.

Look at this, this is a real source:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

I saw this too:

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windo...tion-twenty-questions-and-answers.aspx

But it does not convinced anyone...

The ATI answer:

http://download.microsoft.com/download/...a3-088782200fe7/TWEN05002_WinHEC05.ppt

Nvidia do not spoke a word until now.
I am waiting the bomb to explode.



 

sourceninja

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2005
8,805
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
No, they host the source, but they don't ship it in the default distro, of course they dont ship gnome, kde, or anything unless you tell it to. And if your use flags do not include dvd playback support, they are not going to install libdvdcss

But they do distribute it and that's the issue so saying that they don't ship dvd support is a lie.

NO what I said IS NOT A LIE. The default distro meaning the default install does not have DVDCSS support. The default install of ubuntu 6.10 does not have it either, however, ubuntu does indeed ship support for it. Lets look at their install page.

https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/dvdplayback.html

What they are doing and what gentoo is doing is the exact same, forcing you to install libdvdcss from source AFTER the installation of the default distro. It just so happens that the default install of gentoo contains no gui, media players, or any other desktop application. You get bash, and the bare minimum required to boot.

So ubuntu and gentoo handle libdvdcss exactlly the same way, howerver the default installs of both distros have no support for playback of css encrypted dvd's. Ubuntu makes you jump though further hoops by not allowing apps to use libdvdcss after you compile it. So they both handle it the same way, the difference is in ubuntu you need a 3rd party repo or you have to compile it yourself, in gentoo emerge compiles it for you if you have the css use flag on apps that can play dvd's. If you do not have the css use flag, then mplayer and k3b have no libdvdcss support and it never gets installed. css is not part of the default shipped use flags.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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I love the fact that my OS of choice isn't subject to US laws so I can get dvd support from many of the mirrors. :D

EDIT: Except in the US (which is retarded in many many ways), wouldn't the illegal part be using the software, not necessarily distribution of it?
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I love the fact that my OS of choice isn't subject to US laws so I can get dvd support from many of the mirrors. :D

I love the fact that I'm not subject to US laws, or more specifically, the DMCA :)
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: Sunner
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I love the fact that my OS of choice isn't subject to US laws so I can get dvd support from many of the mirrors. :D

I love the fact that I'm not subject to US laws, or more specifically, the DMCA :)

I read something about Sweden in the past couple of weeks that made me shake my head... I just wish I could remember what it was. :p
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Sunner
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I love the fact that my OS of choice isn't subject to US laws so I can get dvd support from many of the mirrors. :D

I love the fact that I'm not subject to US laws, or more specifically, the DMCA :)

I read something about Sweden in the past couple of weeks that made me shake my head... I just wish I could remember what it was. :p

Maybe that thing about RIAA borrowing some FBI'ers and sending them our way to train our police in catching the dangerous evil pirates?
Yeah, our politicians suck too :p
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: Sunner
Maybe that thing about RIAA borrowing some FBI'ers and sending them our way to train our police in catching the dangerous evil pirates?
Yeah, our politicians suck too :p

Possibly. Politicians are the same everywhere...
 

Brazen

Diamond Member
Jul 14, 2000
4,259
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Using a box of Windows to convert everything to free file formats seems to solve the majority of problems, ( the royalties are already payed ) and then you can go.

Using a Windows box solves no such problem, i.e. installing VLC on Windows is just as illegal as on Linux if you don't pay the proper licenses yourself.

You can load of Ogg codecs, and it's probably possible to get them to work with Windows Movie Maker. Regardless, VLC is not the only solution to converting media.
 

Brazen

Diamond Member
Jul 14, 2000
4,259
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Originally posted by: Sunner
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I love the fact that my OS of choice isn't subject to US laws so I can get dvd support from many of the mirrors. :D

I love the fact that I'm not subject to US laws, or more specifically, the DMCA :)

I love the fact that I'm not surround by, uh, the Alps... er, beautiful women... dang it...
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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The default distro meaning the default install does not have DVDCSS support.

The default installation is irrelevant, they host and distribute the offending code which is the potential problem.

The default install of ubuntu 6.10 does not have it either, however, ubuntu does indeed ship support for it. Lets look at their install page.

If you look at the script they tell you to run you'll see that they download the package from some site in sweden that's not part of Canonical or Ubuntu.

You can load of Ogg codecs, and it's probably possible to get them to work with Windows Movie Maker. Regardless, VLC is not the only solution to converting media.

VLC was just one example because it's a common one pointed to when people ask for a free DVD player but the fact of the matter is that it's not free if you still want to play those files legally. Their FAQ even mentions that it's up to you to buy certain licenses on your own.
 

sourceninja

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2005
8,805
65
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It is official documentation. This isn't some user making a post on how to do this, this is Ubuntu telling you how to do it. I do not see the difference.

It would be like microsoft hosting links to download no-cd cracks.
 

greylica

Senior member
Aug 11, 2006
276
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What the hell, we buy DVDs with CSS, this is the initial problem, pirates do not mind if it has or not CSS in their DVD, HDV or anything, the pirates unblock almost everything, and the industry put the cost to the honest consumer like if they will solve the problem, but in fact, what happens is that the honest consumer is being bothered more and more. If I have a normal comercial bought DVD, why I cannot play in Linux ? It means the DVD has a defective design, not made to function as intended, and please do not compare movies to car pieces. ( justifying the fit on measures ). Media is something really different. If the industry abandon the CSS and all of the crap, the lower costs will atract more people to the legal side of the wall.
Recently I saw the Blu Ray disc having an increase in revenue, what matters for the consumers ?
Only 5 U$ of difference. ( altough 5 dollar is 5 dollars ).
But is the fact that the piracy is caused by the higher margin of profit that they are having.
In certain countries, the law of the country means that the media has to function as it's intended to, in any device capable of play them.
It means show the film and don't bother.
Do you know what they are doing here in Brazil ?
Leaving DCSS and Macrovision!
It means 4U$ less for the consumer, what happens ?
13% less piracy of the same DVD in the initial month.
People buy again the original DVD.
Another success is the creation of two distinct products, ( they put the same thing onto the CDs and the quality is the same, no crap in the second one ), offered to people, the two of them is original, but one is made of a Normal CD and the other is a burned CD, the burned CD only haves the music and is 50% cheaper than the other, paying taxes normally, in two months, the pirates does not have the CD anymore to sell, because the public search the stores for the original burned CD. And, more interestingly, the premium CD has an increase of 13% in search.

But, the differences is only outside, the inside is the same.
The industry can lower the cost at any moment, but instead of this , they preferred the war against users, now, users are getting to creative commons, the system found it's own best way alone, and they get desperate blaming the computer industry for their problems.
The industry offered a useless solution and more cost is absorbed by the population. More piracy, and a bad chain goes well.
Finally, Microsoft Vista... More cost, more problems. The same problems.

CSS offered in Ubuntu is totally legal for certain countries. It is illegal in USA, but not Illegal for the entire world, they payed for the DVDs, not for the CSS. CSS is Useless, but who bought a DVD already payed for it. CSS is provided to add more costs, not to stop piracy. The same for HDMI and HDCP, doesn't stop piracy, but add more costs.
The honest consumer continues paying for the sins of the industry.

If I pay for a DVD, it's for a DVD, not for CSS, CSS don't do anything for me, the film working well do. CSS is not for my protection, not for play the DVD ( In fact, only add a bloat to the film ), but it is there. What is the function of CSS for me and for you if it's not really needed for play the DVD ?

CSS is Legal for Linux, we already payed CSS Bloat in the DVD, do they still want more for what ? We never tell them to put CSS onto the DVDs, so why we must have to pay for it ?
That's the new question that we have to ask them, they judged us pirates before we buy their DVDs, and they condemned us with no asking before and we already payed for a bloat.

I still guess the simple solution is to have a single box of windows to convert things that are illegal to legal formats for linux distros, or a friend that can convert them for you. There is so much box of windows out there, it will be very simple.
MP3 -> Wave -> Ogg
CSSed MPG -> AVI -> Theora
QT -> AVI -> Theora

Good bye problems. Course, never redistribute it or sell, your right is only to have a backup of the film for the purpose of show it in your home, not make money with it.

If you use it in your residence only for that purpose, no problem at all.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
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I'm confused. If I look at the Wiki on libdvdcss it states:

'libdvdcss is a free, highly portable library for accessing and unscrambling DVDs encrypted with the CSS system. It is part of the VideoLAN project and is used by VLC and all other free/open source DVD players such as Ogle, xine-based players and MPlayer.'


If it's free then why is it illegal? I know it being in a Wiki doesn't make it fact but it sounds like the Wiki description mirrors this thread.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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It is official documentation. This isn't some user making a post on how to do this, this is Ubuntu telling you how to do it. I do not see the difference.

It would be like microsoft hosting links to download no-cd cracks.

It's the difference between selling crack and telling someone where they can get some crack and that's determined by the laws in your country so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

If I have a normal comercial bought DVD, why I cannot play in Linux ?

Because the people who designed CSS require proper licensing and such in the tools to decrypt it, if someone like WinDVD decided to port their player to Linux then it would be legal.

It means the DVD has a defective design, not made to function as intended,

No, it's working exactly as they intended. When they designed it, they wanted to be able to control where you can play the media and since Linux doesn't have any sanctioned playback software they don't want you playing them there.

If the industry abandon the CSS and all of the crap, the lower costs will atract more people to the legal side of the wall.

Doubtful, most people don't even know what CSS is and the industry isn't exactly have any problems selling DVDs.

In certain countries, the law of the country means that the media has to function as it's intended to, in any device capable of play them.

And the fact that Linux isn't legally capable is fine by the MPAA's standards. The fact that you happen to have a DVD-ROM in the computer doesn't mean it should be magically able to decrypt anything on the disc.

If I pay for a DVD, it's for a DVD, not for CSS, CSS don't do anything for me, the film working well do. CSS is not for my protection, not for play the DVD ( In fact, only add a bloat to the film ), but it is there. What is the function of CSS for me and for you if it's not really needed for play the DVD ?

Also when you buy a DVD you don't own the media on that disc, you only own the disc and a license to watch that media and with that license the agreement to use a legal player which happens to require CSS in order to view the media.

That's the new question that we have to ask them, they judged us pirates before we buy their DVDs, and they condemned us with no asking before and we already payed for a bloat.

Does the fact that your car has door locks on them mean that you've judged everyone on the street a thief?
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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If it's free then why is it illegal? I know it being in a Wiki doesn't make it fact but it sounds like the Wiki description mirrors this thread.

Because it's sole purpose is to bypass the encryption on DVDs and the DMCA makes tools that "circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works" illegal.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
If it's free then why is it illegal? I know it being in a Wiki doesn't make it fact but it sounds like the Wiki description mirrors this thread.

Because it's sole purpose is to bypass the encryption on DVDs and the DMCA makes tools that "circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works" illegal.

From what I've read on this (and I'll admit it's not much) the CSS encryption is only to restrict DVD's to certain regions. Every DVD I own is a 'Region 1' disc so if there was a player without it I would be fine, correct? To be honest I don't watch DVD's on my PC or laptop anyway - well I did in the Philippines but most of the DVD's there are pirated and region free.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
If it's free then why is it illegal? I know it being in a Wiki doesn't make it fact but it sounds like the Wiki description mirrors this thread.

Because it's sole purpose is to bypass the encryption on DVDs and the DMCA makes tools that "circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works" illegal.

Ergo, lobby for your local politicians to fix or get rid of the DMCA :)
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Nothinman
If it's free then why is it illegal? I know it being in a Wiki doesn't make it fact but it sounds like the Wiki description mirrors this thread.

Because it's sole purpose is to bypass the encryption on DVDs and the DMCA makes tools that "circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works" illegal.

From what I've read on this (and I'll admit it's not much) the CSS encryption is only to restrict DVD's to certain regions. Every DVD I own is a 'Region 1' disc so if there was a player without it I would be fine, correct? To be honest I don't watch DVD's on my PC or laptop anyway - well I did in the Philippines but most of the DVD's there are pirated and region free.

Region encoding is different. CSS tries to protect the data everywhere. Region encoding just means you can't import as much stuff from outside your region (which makes NO sense to me...). Probably a pricing level thing.
 

greylica

Senior member
Aug 11, 2006
276
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
If it's free then why is it illegal? I know it being in a Wiki doesn't make it fact but it sounds like the Wiki description mirrors this thread.

Because it's sole purpose is to bypass the encryption on DVDs and the DMCA makes tools that "circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works" illegal.

So, is there any problem in converting my DVD to Theora in a legal windows Box with legal software to do so ( Like DVD backup ) to show it in Linux machines ?
Well, I can always isolate this activities ( IF I Want to see DVDs), to an standalone Windows Box in my entire enterprise and there is no problem at all with OEMs DVD players, and if the answer is not to convert, the answer is the isolation of the Windows Machines to Media players of protected content, and continue using Linux to do other things that are more cool, like media creation.;)

OK, If we leave CSS problems to oblivion simple using DVD players, the problem caused by the Holywood problem creators will have less impact in our lives with the PCs, then, we can use another free standards to share contents that we can create ourselves without paying a cent.
I'm doing my part to help developers of free software with donations and books bought, thank you all of the free software developers to my new job with 3D !!! Thank you all, I'm very happy that the free software give me new horizons .

The best way is to not pollute Linux with this problems, and leave totally proprietary file formats to oblivion, this discussion convinced myself more to the right way of separating Worlds. Boxed players are better to do this than PCs. If a disc simple didn't function, sue them too.
The point is find a way to fully separate water from oil.
But, in my living with Linux, it will be the easiest thing to do...
One box for Windows. Dozens for Linux. :)