Quite impressed with Ubuntu 7.04 Beta

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Upgrading to 7.04 in-place right now, let's see how it goes.

For those who haven't already figured out by the length of time between posts, it went "Sh**ty." Linux is evidently just as falliable as Windows when it comes to in-place upgrades. Shame on me for thinking otherwise.

Also, screw partitioning, I'm going "separate OS, separate drive."

- M4H

keep in mind, 7.04 is still in beta, and it's not even at the final beta yet.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: drag

Linux

Don't think 'Linux', think 'Ubuntu'. Debian has always done terrific job of doing it.

Plus it's probably a bug with the beta version of Ubuntu, unless it's a deal with propriatory drivers, then there isn't realy anything anybody can do about it.

Maybe I'll give that a shot next then.

- M4H

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: drag

Yea, you really gotta love someone that doesn't respect the work and wishes of others. :/

Plus potentially opens up you and your company to major lawsuites. What Gentoo is essentially doing is handing off the legal responsability for their own actions off onto the end user, which is a bad thing. Personally I think that software patents are fundamentally flawed and it's perfectly ok to disregard them entirely, but you have to be aware of the legal consiquences of having a attitude like that.

Most people don't understand the legal ramifications of, say, using Gentoo as a streaming media server for a service. Something like, say, a college campus mp3 radio station.
Something like that will easily get your employers sued and you fired.

So Linux distributions realy have a legal responsability to their _end_users_, not to do anything that will potentially screw them over.

When I use Debian or Fedora Core, I know those people have done licensing audits and take it seriously. I may not agree with all their decisions, but I appreciate the hard work they do. I know that with those I can take them and modify it. I can use it for any purpose. Build streaming servers with the software they provide. Bundle it with hardware. Use it in embedded systems. Sell copies of cdroms on Ebay. Sell PCs to people. Use it for anything and everything I want.

I don't have to consult lawyers and do the licensing audits myself. I know that it's all Free software and worst case is that I'd have to deal with the requirements of the GPL license.

With Gentoo or other similar things, I don't know that. I can't trust it and I need to be paraniod about what software I use in it.

Ignoring the law is not a good way to deal with the law. If you don't beleive me, go and visit any county courthouse or correctional facility and you can find usually several hundred people figuring that out the hard way. Of course with software the penalties are financial, but that can be worse sometimes.

I'd say ubuntu is doing the same thing. Gentoo gives you the choice at install time with use flags. Ubuntu gives you the choice with instructions on their own documentation. They just don't host the binarys. It's like saying "Well, I wouldn't rob that bank, but if I was going to I just happen to have this document that details how I would do it...but you should be careful cause robing banks is illegal."

The bigger problem is that you can not have a desktop with the quality of windows in linux without breaking US law. (Although it is questionable if you are breaking us law by installing the files, or if only the distributer is breaking Us law).

How can we have a mainstream desktop if it requires breaking the law to be useful.

On a side note, I have ubuntu server 7 beta running on my vmware esx server. It's running apache, mod_python, moinmoin wiki, subversion, mod_webdav (or whatever ubuntu calls it), and php5 and the oracle instant client and oci8 module for php.

So far it runs well as a little test server. I'd almost concider using it in place of debian for our linux servers. We only have a few but they are growing, solaris servers are just too expensive.

 

[Noema]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

That and in the past, not sure if it's still true, it had a blatant disregard for the integrity of your system. It would use dpkg --force-* to wedge packages into place whether they should actually be there or not. It may be easy on the outside but eventually you ended up with a broken system.

The last time I tried automatix, it ended up wrecking my system so bad I had to do a clean install to fix it. Stuff like the task bar being all messed up; sound and video not working; DHCP not working.

Granted this was Xubuntu so I'm sure a lot of it came from automatix's trying to force bits and pieces of Gnome into my XFCE GUI, but I'm not touching that thing with a ten foot pole.

 

[Nothinman]

For those who haven't already figured out by the length of time between posts, it went "Sh**ty." Linux is evidently just as falliable as Windows when it comes to in-place upgrades. Shame on me for thinking otherwise.

I've upgraded between several versions of Debian without a hitch. Although Sarge->Etch is going to be interesting for people because of the udev crap that gregkh messed up pretty badly, but in general it goes fine. And since Debian has sid there's no reason to deal with annual upgrades on workstations, just run sid and upgrade periodically and you'll always have the latest in the archives. I would suggest install apt-listbugs first though, since sid is the main entry point for packages in Debian there are occasions where a package isn't quite ready so it's nice to be notified about that so you can wait a few days for it to be fixed.

I'd say ubuntu is doing the same thing. Gentoo gives you the choice at install time with use flags. Ubuntu gives you the choice with instructions on their own documentation. They just don't host the binarys. It's like saying "Well, I wouldn't rob that bank, but if I was going to I just happen to have this document that details how I would do it...but you should be careful cause robing banks is illegal."

For the most part Ubuntu doesn't host anything that Debian doesn't, so 99% of their packages have been inspected by both the Debian ftpmasters and debian-legal. For the really questionable stuff you have to go to a 3rd party repo, like www.debian-multimedia.org , in both cases.

The bigger problem is that you can not have a desktop with the quality of windows in linux without breaking US law. (Although it is questionable if you are breaking us law by installing the files, or if only the distributer is breaking Us law).

Not 100% true, it's possible to buy licenses for a lot of those things personally. The only thing that stands out to me right now is libdvdcss which I doubt you can buy a legal license to use, which does suck.

We only have a few but they are growing, solaris servers are just too expensive.

Besides the fact that they're expensive, they're also Solaris...

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: NothinmanBesides the fact that they're expensive, they're also Solaris...

Don't be like that now.

 

[Nothinman]

Don't be like that now.

It's not my fault Solaris makes baby jesus cry...

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Don't be like that now.

It's not my fault Solaris makes baby jesus cry...

I like to think of it as that kid on the school yard who no one ever hung out with, because he was a bit shy and knew no one.
Then you got to know him, and it turned out he was actually a pretty nice guy

And of course, it's not his fault that his parents(McNealy) are raving lunatics

 

[drag]

"Quiet Kid", eh?

Hopefully not _that_ kid.

You know, the one were after spectacularly bad news reports everybody always says stuff like:
"Oh, he always seemed like such a quiet boy."
"Always seemed to keep to himself..."
"Never realy bothered anybody, he was always just kinda there, like a peice of furniture or something."

And then months later after the trial his parents finally admit why the neighbor's pets all started mysteriously dissappearing at night right around when he turned 11 years old...

And the poor local vets working at the county pound were thinking their promotion of neuturing/spaying were working out... untill they realised the horrible truth...

and the cops were thinking that they were starting to be realy effective at cracking down on the local prostitution problem...

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
[

I'd say ubuntu is doing the same thing. Gentoo gives you the choice at install time with use flags. Ubuntu gives you the choice with instructions on their own documentation. They just don't host the binarys. It's like saying "Well, I wouldn't rob that bank, but if I was going to I just happen to have this document that details how I would do it...but you should be careful cause robing banks is illegal."

For the most part Ubuntu doesn't host anything that Debian doesn't, so 99% of their packages have been inspected by both the Debian ftpmasters and debian-legal. For the really questionable stuff you have to go to a 3rd party repo, like www.debian-multimedia.org , in both cases.
/q]


Yea, that's what I said. Gentoo has ebuilds for everything legal or not, its up to you to decide if you want it with use flags. Ubuntu does not host most illegal library's and programs, but wiki.ubuntu.com and other offical sources of ubuntu documentation such as help.ubuntu.com give you instructions on how to install said illegal apps. The difference between that and just hosting it was what I was making fun of. Basically they are doing the same thing. Gentoo doesn't ship dvd support (or support for anything) by default. What they ship is a script that will download and compile the source for you. Ubuntu doesn't ship dvd support by default, but they post detailed instructions on how to get it yourself manually.

Last night I installed ubuntu 7 beta at a friends house for him to play with. Another bug we noticed is that his dlink usb wireless card no longer functions (it did function in dapper). I tried many things but for some reason it kept picking up the prisim54 drivers and not ndiswrapper. Even blacklisting those modules in modprobe.d did not help.

 

[drag]

Why did you keep mucking around with those horrible ndiswrapper thing?

I can't beleive people still try to get that junk working unless they have no other choice. It's ****** and should go away, unless of course you have no other choice.

Think about it.. Your shovelling a closed source _windows_ driver into your kernel.

If that d-link USB card is conextant-based then to get it working you should just install the firmware for it into the correct directory and it will start working.

Is it one of the cards listed here?
http://prism54.org/newdrivers.html

 

[sourceninja]

Yea, its listed there dlink 120. However no matter what I did I could not get the thing to even show up. lsusb show's the device. But nothing else I could do would cause it to be avalible in ifconfig or iwconfig. So I tried the ndiswrapper approach which also did not work. The ndiswrapper would say driver loaded, hardware found, but again, I would get prism54 errors in dmesg like I did when trying to use the prism54 drivers found in ubuntu.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

It's a laptop.

It still comes with lots of firmware that you don't have the source code to. =)

The firmware isn't run by my OS, it's run on the hardware it belongs to by the hardware it belongs to.

And I don't think there is anything in it that requires firmware to be loaded from the drivers. Of course, I haven't verified that.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Point out a blob for a SIS video chipset...

Sure, there's lots of blobs. They come in AGP and PCIe format, and are commonly called "Video cards that don't suck ass."

- M4H

It's a laptop.

In that case,

"PwN3d"



Upgrading to 7.04 in-place right now, let's see how it goes.

- M4H

It's a laptop, that I do work on. I don't need my xterms to be on fire.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner
I like to think of it as that kid on the school yard who no one ever hung out with, because he was a bit shy and knew no one.
Then you got to know him, and it turned out he was actually a pretty nice guy

And of course, it's not his fault that his parents(McNealy) are raving lunatics

The solaris shells make me angrier than bash and vim combined, and that's an amazing feat.

Toss in a decent shell and pkgsrc, and I don't mind making baby jesus cry.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: drag
Why did you keep mucking around with those horrible ndiswrapper thing?

I can't beleive people still try to get that junk working unless they have no other choice. It's ****** and should go away, unless of course you have no other choice.

Think about it.. Your shovelling a closed source _windows_ driver into your kernel.

If that d-link USB card is conextant-based then to get it working you should just install the firmware for it into the correct directory and it will start working.

Is it one of the cards listed here?
http://prism54.org/newdrivers.html

There's always a choice.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Sunner
I like to think of it as that kid on the school yard who no one ever hung out with, because he was a bit shy and knew no one.
Then you got to know him, and it turned out he was actually a pretty nice guy

And of course, it's not his fault that his parents(McNealy) are raving lunatics

The solaris shells make me angrier than bash and vim combined, and that's an amazing feat.

Toss in a decent shell and pkgsrc, and I don't mind making baby jesus cry.

Well, I tend to stick to bash since I mostly "grew up" with Linux
But what are you missing? The usual suspects are all there.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner
Well, I tend to stick to bash since I mostly "grew up" with Linux
But what are you missing? The usual suspects are all there.

pkgsrc would probably give me just about everything I'd need. I just don't have time to mess with Solaris much.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Sunner
Well, I tend to stick to bash since I mostly "grew up" with Linux
But what are you missing? The usual suspects are all there.

pkgsrc would probably give me just about everything I'd need. I just don't have time to mess with Solaris much.

Can't say I've ever used pkgsrc, so I have no comment on that really
I'll say that something like APT would certainly be nice though.

Ah well, there's a Solaris/Debian hybrid in the works called Nexenta, and there's always Blastwave's pkg-* tools, though that's kinda limited

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Sunner
Well, I tend to stick to bash since I mostly "grew up" with Linux
But what are you missing? The usual suspects are all there.

pkgsrc would probably give me just about everything I'd need. I just don't have time to mess with Solaris much.

Can't say I've ever used pkgsrc, so I have no comment on that really
I'll say that something like APT would certainly be nice though.

Ah well, there's a Solaris/Debian hybrid in the works called Nexenta, and there's always Blastwave's pkg-* tools, though that's kinda limited

Hence the pkgsrc. NetBSD's pkgsrc is supposed to work pretty well on Solaris (and the BSDs, and Linux...).

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: sourceninja
Yea, its listed there dlink 120. However no matter what I did I could not get the thing to even show up. lsusb show's the device. But nothing else I could do would cause it to be avalible in ifconfig or iwconfig. So I tried the ndiswrapper approach which also did not work. The ndiswrapper would say driver loaded, hardware found, but again, I would get prism54 errors in dmesg like I did when trying to use the prism54 drivers found in ubuntu.

did you download the firmware images for it?

The Linux drivers won't work without them and they are probably not included by default due to licensing issues.

There's always a choice.

Well of course. They are pretty much a last resort type thing.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Upgrading to 7.04 in-place right now, let's see how it goes.

For those who haven't already figured out by the length of time between posts, it went "Sh**ty." Linux is evidently just as falliable as Windows when it comes to in-place upgrades. Shame on me for thinking otherwise.

Also, screw partitioning, I'm going "separate OS, separate drive."

- M4H

I tried to upgrade my lappy and it didn't go well. I wound up doing a reload but I had my /home in a separate partition that I didn't touch. After the reload I logged in with my old username and everything was there - well except the non-default programs like Skype and VMWare Server. I had a backup from only 3 weeks ago so no big deal as I wouldn't have lost much anyway but it was nice not having to.

 

[Alone]

I've done the install, updates and upgrades flawlessly more than once, even when Feisty was pre-alpha. Some people just don't have the luck.

However, remember, Feisty isn't completely finished yet, and if you're having problems and it's starting to bother you, why are you even using Feisty?

 

[Nothinman]

The difference between that and just hosting it was what I was making fun of. Basically they are doing the same thing. Gentoo doesn't ship dvd support (or support for anything) by default.

So Gentoo doesn't host the source for libdvdcss and instead downloads the source directly from the upstream URL every time?

 

[sourceninja]

No, they host the source, but they don't ship it in the default distro, of course they dont ship gnome, kde, or anything unless you tell it to. And if your use flags do not include dvd playback support, they are not going to install libdvdcss