Quiet build advice please

[vbuggy]

I'm tossing around the idea of building a home PC again. I have a rather noisy (to ears used to the HP Z800, Dell Precision T7500 and Mac Pro in a home setting at least) gaming rig based around a Lian Li X2000, i7-965+stock HSF, Corsair 1K modular, dual 295's and a quad-Vertex array (so at least we know HDD noise is not the issue).

What I'd like to do is to replace / rebuild this with an i7-980x based build, probably with an Asus P6X58D Premium, one HD5970 to start with (possibly two if I think I need it), also highly likely keeping the Vertex array (+ LSI Megaraid adapter).

This will no longer be just a gaming PC but an all-purpose machine to partially replace notebooks I bought as DTR's but are not quite working out (Dell Precision M6500 Covets with i7-920xm's) due to lack of absolute power, as well as a couple of other problems (so are partially being replaced with HP Elitebook 8740w's).

One of the key requirements of this, which is part of the reason why I tried going all-notebook, is noise. I'd like the resulting PC from the build to run as quiet as possible on air. Now I know even fairly carefully crafted DIY's aren't the quietest machines around and if, for example, I can't achieve the same quietness as an HP Z800 at the baseline, I'd probably look at buying a single-hexacore HP instead of going DIY.

Any suggestions for good looking, easy to build, roomy cases, fans, etc given the above requirements? Or am I better off going HP?

Thanks

 

[WoodButcher]

Sound absorbing mats applied to all panels, I use it on small spots as well to help with vibrations, IMO more is better.
Rubber screws on all fans.
I try to soft mount everything, I'll put "friction tape" (black rubber electrical tape) between drives, PSU and the case.
Use high quality components like gentle typhoon fans and slow them with a controller.
Toss the stock heatsink and get a tower type, use a PWM fan on it. You can use PWM fans on the case as well but for these you'll need to do some homework.

 

[jchu14]

There is nothing magical about OEM builds that make them quieter. Heat generated inside a case have to be removed one way or another. Custom rigs will give you more flexibility in fan configurations and settings.

The key to a quiet build is to use high quality HSF and case fans as well as be tolerant of higher temperatures.

Computer parts can tolerate higher temperature than most enthusiasts give them credit for. Even though lower temperature is always better, having a CPU/GPU run at high temperatures (that's still within spec) is not a big deal. IMO that's the key difference that gives the impression that OEM systems are quieter than custom systems. They often have just enough cooling for the spec of the system.

Given you're picking out some very high performance parts, making a system inaudible during full load is going to be difficult, but inaudible during idle/low power tasks and very low noise in load won't be hard. You can use speedfan to finely control your case and CPU fans.

Here are some quality components:
Seasonic X750
Prolimatech Megaleham
Scythe Gentle Typhoons

The case, IMO, is the least important part of the equation. Sound dampening material can give you that extra edge, but if you pick rest of the parts carefully, there should be very little noise to damp out. Many fine choices here from Lian Li, Silverstone etc. Get something with 140mm case fans would be good.

If it's still not quiet enough, you can always move your computer further away from your workspace.

Spend some at the the forum in SPCR. These people are very passionate about quiet computing.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Have you considered building a water cooled pc with low speed fans? That would get the heat out of the case and keep your fan noise to a minumum.

 

[nyker96]

I think you can do a quiet build on your own. One case you can use as your base is P183 which has double sound insulation on left and right panel. I have the older P182 which is very quiet. Then you need something like Megahalem with 1 or 2 very quiet 120mm fans. If the stock fans are too noisy you can get better 120mm fans to keep the case very quiet. But like a previous poster said, SPCR forum will help you make great choices. I would think with sound damping materials etc, you can build quieter pc than HP.

 

[vbuggy]

Thanks for the advice, nyper96 and jchu14.

One of the reasons I am pretty sceptical of SPCR is that I actually hired someone off there to build me a super-quiet workstation(s) a while back, and well, let's just say We Had Issues about the interpretation of quiet. His comparison was to low-end tin boxes from Dell and DIY's, mine was - as outlined above - different.

Looking at the discussions after my sweat-stained experience with the P180 (see below) and putting my cynical hat on, it seems to be a forum mainly dedicated to (well, with the exception of the totally fanless rigs) getting a DIY to work half as well as the quietest prebuilts.

Thing is, this time around my needs aren't quite covered by prebuilds. It slots halfway between the likes of the Mac Pro - a domestic-use-suitable (or only suitable for, you could argue) workstation - and a gaming rig. So I'd rather DIY using a board like the Asus above and an i7 instead of a Xeon.

A while back (early 2006?), I did build a couple of machines using the P180's shortly after release, which were actually the last machines I built entirely on my own (every special use DIY since then I've partially or wholly hired other people to build). And it was a pretty hard struggle - I was initially puzzled because as you say that has sound damping too - actually getting a really quiet system, lots of fan grief. I spent a good few hundred hundred bucks just trialling aftermarket fans in conjunction with controllers. While Scythe's low-speeds were what I ended up with, I wasn't actually very happy with the noise aspect and dumped the DIY's soon after, returning to prebuilts.

What I'm looking for ideally is *specific* guidance in terms of what combo might work in the quietest build for the above component choices. I've outlined the internals, perhaps you could offer me some advice regarding specifics of a good enclosure (bearing in mind that the X2000, a case reviewed as 'very quiet' - by someone who undoubtedly conducted the review in an office - is actually pretty noisy in my opinion) and cooling arrangement to match or go below the noise levels of the prebuilts I've outlined above - of special acoustic comparison relevance being the Mac Pro.

Puffnstuff - it's not really something I'm considering.

 

[jchu14]

What speed were the Scythe fans spinning at that you thought was still a bit too loud? This'll give me a baseline on how quiet your definition of quiet is.

From a bit of googling, it looks like MacPros have 5 fans at 650-850 rpm. I think that's very doable to match in a DIY except for the 5970(s). I am unfamiliar with what aftermarket coolers are available for the 5970. Since silence is not a big factor in the gamer market that the 5970 is catered to , I am not too hopeful.

EDIT: The only air aftermarket cooling I found for the 5970 is the Arctic Cooling 5970 . It's a triple slot solution with minimum fan speed of three 92mm fans at 900rpm. Don't know if it the speed can controlled by software and if 900rpm is enough for load. It's the only air cooling solution available though.

For cpu cooling, I would suggest Scythe Orochi 1100. It's a huge huge cooler that comes with 140mm fan at 500rpm. You should verify that the Orochi will fit in the LL case that you have.

 

[ehume]

Scythe makes a number of fans. They also sell Gentle Typhoons, which are made by Nidec - Japan Servo. Those and Scythe Slip Streams generally make the quietest case fans. The SS 1200's, for example, sound like wind in the trees.

For quiet performance, I have to agree with SPCR that the Nexus Real Quiet is the best fan out there. But it is a gentle fan, so its output might not be high enough for you.

The next step up is the Noctua P series - NF-P14 and NF-P12. Great fans.

Look at this study. I tested 65 fans and 112 seups on a Megahalems cooler. That will give you some comparisons to chew on.

Concepts:

1. A closed case with a Noctua NF-P12 as an exhaust fan. When I did this using an Antec NSK-4480 II with the grill on the right side, I could hear hissing everywhere in the case as the P12 sucked the air through the case. That's how strong it is. And quiet.

2. An open case with lots of windows (open to air, not Plexiglas). Cut out the rear grill to improve airflow (do that with concept 1 as well). Put a Megahalems on your cpu with the fan that comes with the case, a Nexus Real Silent, a GT 1450 or a P12 and never OC the thing. Using a single fan keeps the noise down.

3. A CM HAF case with the big 200+mm fans turned low - big fans move air quietly. Then a nice fan on your Megahalems or Noctua NH-D14 running stock fans.

Whatever case you choose, use sticky foam everywhere to reduce resonance and stop echoes.

 

[nyker96]

vbuggy, it look like you are not really too concerned with the price of the build. In that case maybe you can find a good quiet pc custom builder on the net who can provide you with custom made cases with full dampening materials (you might be able to specify to them your noise tolerance etc). It might give you the exact result you want over building a rig with only off the shelf materials which surely has their limitations.

As to specific off the shelf parts for silent pc build, I am unfortunately not very experienced in that area to offer much more advices.

 

[vbuggy]

@nyker96:

Not overtly concerned, but at the same time there is an upper limit (i.e. a single-Hexacore Z800 price) where I'll think twice. With a DIY I don't obviously have the warranty backup of a prebuilt as well as the grief in assembly (I'm not the worlds biggest fan of assembling PC's - let's say I consider it something of a chore, not my idea of fun), and that is a factor in me expecting it to be somewhat cheaper, unless it has some sort of showstopper USP - e.g. it employs something like the Level 10.

I realise I'm a 'difficult customer' - my budget isn't limited, and due to experience I probably have much higher expectations that most but at the same time I do have some sanity.

The problem in terms of a prebuilt seems to be (I'm in the UK) that most 'quiet PC builders' or should I say 'PC builders who also happen to build quiet systems' seem to lift stuff from QuietPC.com in dribs and drabs in configurations I know aren't all that quiet. There are totally specialised quiet PC builders, but they don't build anything that I'm after in this build. WHS's, Media computers, that sort of thing is what they offer.

@ehume:

As I alluded to above, long experimentation and trial and error really isn't my bag at the moment, and I was kind of hoping for a quick answer. Also at the same time, extensive customisation or silent-hacking isn't really an option. I have been looking at the Level 10 etc but I have also been thinking a little more 'normally', and it agrees with some of your recommendations - So perhaps I can run this past you.

Since tuning the X2000 is probably of lesser potential than a 120mm fan based case and I know my way around a P180, I was thinking about going with a P183 + CP-850, throwing out all of the fans and sticking in a rear NF-S12B - along with a fan controller of some description to allow it to go from 600 to 1200rpm as necessary. I was also considering the traditional NVIDIA vs ATI stock fans / speeds, and thinking perhaps I can afford to trade down to a single unfettered-with 480, e.g. the Asus, if that runs quieter in idle. The power disparity is something I can live with: The fast, completely stable (i.e. non-OC'd) hexacore aspect is if anything more important. The Noctua NH-U12P SE2 was being considered for it, once again maybe through a fan controller if temp - speed control was actually effective.

Really the matter isn't just about the fans, but the intelligence with which they're controlled - and that was something I wasn't sure about what to entrust to, mobo/software or hardware. What do you think, and if the basics seem OK then any suggestions for a controller, of if I'd even need one (bearing in mind that I will actually give the system a serious workout from time to time, during which I don't necessarily expect it to stay at its quietest - but err on the side of stability).

 

[jchu14]

Instead of a fan controller, you should first look into speedfan. With a compatible motherboard, it can give you as much if not more automated control than a fan controller.

Each fan header can be controlled individually. You can designate a max fan speed, min fan speed, target temperature, ramp up/down rate, max temperature (fan speed = 100% if temp > max temp).

maybe look into crossfire 5850/5870? There are a lot more choices in aftermarket coolers for thoese. 5870 will also be much easier to cool than a 480

 

[frostedflakes]

Your expectations seem a bit unreasonable. What kind of hardware does the Z800 have? What about the Mac Pro? Do these machines have to power and cool two 300w video cards? Also, are they quiet at load as well, or only idle? Building a top of the line system that's quiet at idle isn't terribly difficult, but load is a different story.

And yeah, stay away from GTX 200 series and 400 series, they are terrible from a performance per watt standpoint compared to ATI's 5000 series cards and are a poor choice for a quiet system.

 

[vbuggy]

Instead of a fan controller, you should first look into speedfan. With a compatible motherboard, it can give you as much if not more automated control than a fan controller.

Each fan header can be controlled individually. You can designate a max fan speed, min fan speed, target temperature, ramp up/down rate, max temperature (fan speed = 100% if temp > max temp).

maybe look into crossfire 5850/5870? There are a lot more choices in aftermarket coolers for thoese. 5870 will also be much easier to cool than a 480

Maybe an option. I can go Crossfire, but not SLI due to app compatibility reasons.
Anyone know if the P6X58D Premium is Speedfan compatible?

 

[ehume]

@ehume:

As I alluded to above, long experimentation and trial and error really isn't my bag at the moment, and I was kind of hoping for a quick answer. Also at the same time, extensive customisation or silent-hacking isn't really an option. I have been looking at the Level 10 etc but I have also been thinking a little more 'normally', and it agrees with some of your recommendations - So perhaps I can run this past you.

Since tuning the X2000 is probably of lesser potential than a 120mm fan based case and I know my way around a P180, I was thinking about going with a P183 + CP-850, throwing out all of the fans and sticking in a rear NF-S12B - along with a fan controller of some description to allow it to go from 600 to 1200rpm as necessary. I was also considering the traditional NVIDIA vs ATI stock fans / speeds, and thinking perhaps I can afford to trade down to a single unfettered-with 480, e.g. the Asus, if that runs quieter in idle. The power disparity is something I can live with: The fast, completely stable (i.e. non-OC'd) hexacore aspect is if anything more important. The Noctua NH-U12P SE2 was being considered for it, once again maybe through a fan controller if temp - speed control was actually effective.

Really the matter isn't just about the fans, but the intelligence with which they're controlled - and that was something I wasn't sure about what to entrust to, mobo/software or hardware. What do you think, and if the basics seem OK then any suggestions for a controller, of if I'd even need one (bearing in mind that I will actually give the system a serious workout from time to time, during which I don't necessarily expect it to stay at its quietest - but err on the side of stability).

I just read the JohnnyGuru review on the CP-850. Definitely a winner. NF-S12B: Get a P12 instead.
My only problem with the P183 is the lack of a window behind the MB for switching heatsinks. If you never switch, it's not a problem.

Since the P183 does not come with a front fan, don't put one in. If your machine sits near you, you will hear those fans. Now - top fan. The top fan must point its output up. That means no sleeve bearing fans need apply, and precious few "liquid bearing" and such. First, cut those struts out - they will simply add noise. Then put in another NF-P12.

The better your heatsink, the quieter your fans can be. There are some passive coolers out there - Cooler Master makes one that looks like a big X. But I think a Noctua NH-D14 with ultra-low-noise adapters would probably give you the cooling and quiet you need.

 

[Modelworks]

The biggest obstacle to making a pc quiet is the case size. If you are okay using a large case then you can make it very very quiet. Start by picking the best fans you can afford with the lowest db rating. Also realize that what some hobbyist think is too hot for temps is not hot at all to the pc. People tend to relate to temperature based on what they experience, we are 98.6F so when we see 115F on something some people think that is a lot when it feels like a cool breeze for semiconductors.

Boxx makes systems for 3d and vfx , workstations that sit near people like me that work all day beside them and don't want a lot of noise.
A good example of lots of cpu power cooled well but quietly.
http://images.digitalmedianet.com/2006/Week_17/r8d0z2pb/story/boxx_apexx_backside.jpg

16 cores cooled quietly could not be done in a smaller case, they used a large case and low resistance to air flow

 

[ehume]

Keeping your video cards cool will reduce the fan noise they make. If you are willing to accept non-gaming level graphics cards you can go with a passive card.

Keeping an actively cooled card cooler means it won't run its own fan much, thus keeping things quieter.

One way to keep both passive and active cards cooler is to remove adjacent slot covers. Then you use self-stick square window foam to make a seal on the back of (outside) your box. You then mount a fan on that foam. It draws air past your expansion cards and away from the case, cooling whatever you have in the backplane.

 

[nyker96]

@OP, if you set your heart on self building, I think it's not undoable but you have to consider the amount of heat your rig will generate in the process. Although the P182 I have is excellent at dampening sound, it does not move enough air for something like a modern SLI/Xfire setup. So an air setup that is quiet has some limitation in heat handling.

But from the looks of it you are heading toward a gaming setup that might need a strong yet quiet cooling system. I never played with water cooling before but maybe it is possible to load up with all the parts you want and still keep the rig very very quiet using water. I do have a turtle tank filter powered w/ a Eheim pump that's probably much bigger than a pump used in computer system, the whole setup is just whisper quiet.

 

[BadOmen]

CP-850 works really nice in a P183. Good choice.
I have a Slipstream at 840rpm on rear and S-Flex at 590rpm on top. They are pretty good. Don't know Noctuas, but it's hard to find bad reviews about them.

I don't know, maybe I got a Gentle Typhoon from a bad batch, but I can't recommend it. I have it at 990rpm on my HS and its noise is horrible. Will be trying the P12 instead.

The fan on my Sapphire 5770 whines. Don't know if it's a Sapphire standard.

Did anyone mention suspended HDs?

 

[vbuggy]

Keeping your video cards cool will reduce the fan noise they make. If you are willing to accept non-gaming level graphics cards you can go with a passive card.

Keeping an actively cooled card cooler means it won't run its own fan much, thus keeping things quieter.

One way to keep both passive and active cards cooler is to remove adjacent slot covers. Then you use self-stick square window foam to make a seal on the back of (outside) your box. You then mount a fan on that foam. It draws air past your expansion cards and away from the case, cooling whatever you have in the backplane.

Thanks for the suggestions. The GPU will need to be a 480-class card at least, no point otherwise.

I finally got a quote back from HP for a comparative spec and the difference between a single-Hexacore 2.8Ghz Xeon and the planned build is not huge once I've got all the peripheral components in each. The Z800 obviously comes with 3-3-3 warranty, which is attractive. No futzing too.

I'll have to think about it - Might come back to post how it went. Thanks for all the suggestions, I think I have enough food for thought for now.

 

[jchu14]

That's with a 480?

What price did they quote you, if you don't mind me asking.

Also, don't expect miracles in silence. My office mate has a Dell optiplex with dual quad xeon and that machine is loud very under load. When there are so much heat generated in a case, they have to moved out quickly.

 

[Zap]

I'd like the resulting PC from the build to run as quiet as possible on air. Now I know even fairly carefully crafted DIY's aren't the quietest machines around and if, for example, I can't achieve the same quietness as an HP Z800 at the baseline, I'd probably look at buying a single-hexacore HP instead of going DIY.

A few random thoughts...

1) Not all OEM systems are quiet. I've worked with a number of Dell Precision workstations and those were pretty noisy.

2) The quieter OEM systems are quiet because they are not overclocked, and they are allowed to run hot. Seriously. The typical DYI "enthusiast" will obsess over getting lower CPU/GPU temperatures, but the reality is that at stock speeds CPUs and GPUs can easily run at well over 80°C with no problems. Heck, even over 90°C.

3) Stock Core i7 965 fansink and twin stock cooled GTX 295 are going to be noisy. Once under load, really, REALLY noisy.

4) My suggestion is, whatever else you do, use a honkin' big CPU heatsink, run stock speeds, run all fans under 800RPM. Done! Guaranteed much quieter than your current setup. Oh yeah, and unless you are having stability issues, don't EVER monitor temperatures. Just don't. You're better off not knowing. Seriously.

 

[tritonofg]

Hey guys...the z600 and z800 HP workstations are the best towers I have used to date. I have used the previous generation Dell T-series, HP XW series, and Lenovo S and D series workstations (but not the Boxx ones though I hear they are good). They were engineered by BMW Design Group and are have great thermal transfer characteristics as well as noise reduction (also taking shock and vibe into account). furthermore, most of the interior connections travel though a backplanes and most of the components are made with blind mate connectors removing virtually all of the cables. If I could afford one for home use I would have one. I currently have an Antec 900 with 129mm fans

http://h20331.www2.hp.com/Hpsub/downloads/HP_Z800_Workstation_Product_Design_MWP.pdf

 

[vbuggy]

Hey guys...the z600 and z800 HP workstations are the best towers I have used to date. I have used the previous generation Dell T-series, HP XW series, and Lenovo S and D series workstations (but not the Boxx ones though I hear they are good). They were engineered by BMW Design Group and are have great thermal transfer characteristics as well as noise reduction (also taking shock and vibe into account). furthermore, most of the interior connections travel though a backplanes and most of the components are made with blind mate connectors removing virtually all of the cables. If I could afford one for home use I would have one. I currently have an Antec 900 with 129mm fans

http://h20331.www2.hp.com/Hpsub/downloads/HP_Z800_Workstation_Product_Design_MWP.pdf

I think that it may be lost on many DIY'ers the effectiveness of the more custom directed cooling used on professional workstations, and what that means for system noise, etc. I do find from the contents of posts vs what I've experienced when I attempt to self-build that a lot of DIY'ers don't have experience beyond what they've built, especially in terms of machines like the ones that I'm more used to using on a daily basis for work - because they can't afford them.

I need them for work and I have almost literally truckloads of Z800's, T7500's and Mac Pros at the office - but I've moved what workstations I had at home due to the environmental reasons I put in my first post. All of the workstations I currently have are dual-processor, top-end specifications which would be timeconsuming to 'build down' to what I want, so I was looking to buy new if I went the pre-built route.

And while a new single-processor Mac Pro would be the quietest pre-built, it is still quad-core, has severe GPU limitations and is unstable under Windows - and also under load, even in light office scenarios. The Dells are noisier (although still quieter than the P180 build I did) than the HP. So the choice of a single-hexacore Z800 is still open.

Now all I need is someone to tell me is whether the proposed build will be quieter than the aforementioned Z800 with a 480 or 5970... Probably wishful thinking?

 

[vbuggy]

That's with a 480?

What price did they quote you, if you don't mind me asking.

Also, don't expect miracles in silence. My office mate has a Dell optiplex with dual quad xeon and that machine is loud very under load. When there are so much heat generated in a case, they have to moved out quickly.

The US$ equivalent = ~$3800 for a single-hexacore (X5660) baseline spec (6Gb RAM, 1Tb HDD) with a 480 (although with dire warnings from the technical rep about it not being supported, as you'd expect), before tax. I'd probably be fine with 6Gb to start with, so although I originally envisaged having 12, I'm not bothered.

This would be a fairly close fit for a US model, although seemingly lower spec.
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en...6-4193573.html

In the case of the Z800, I'd complete the build by tossing out the HDD, slotting in the Megaraid and mounting the Vertexes on Scythe Twin Mounters.

In the case of the proposed build, P183+CP850+i7980+Megahalems+Noctuas+6Gb+P6X58D+Asus480+opticals = US$ equivalent ~$2800 before tax, so it's faster and cheaper at this stage. However the difference is only effectively a quarter of the Z800 build and if it's noisier the savings wouldn't be worth it to me.

I don't think they do an Optiplex with a Xeon. The T4500 maybe? That's not that quiet due to it's small, regular-PC-form-factor size and is also not as flexible as the T7500.

 

[jchu14]

In the case of the proposed build, P183+CP850+i7980+Megahalems+Noctuas+6Gb+P6X58D+Asus480+opticals = US$ equivalent ~$2800 before tax, so it's faster and cheaper at this stage. However the difference is only effectively a quarter of the Z800 build and if it's noisier the savings wouldn't be worth it to me.

I don't think they do an Optiplex with a Xeon. The T4500 maybe? That's not that quiet due to it's small, regular-PC-form-factor size and is also not as flexible as the T7500.

Ah you're right. It was a Precision workstation. Good call.

That price on the HP is not bad all. Less than I expected considering the processor+gpu is almost 2 grand. Well IMO, it comes down to whether you'd enjoy spending time tweaking the DIY build or if you consider that time wasted. And the 3 year support may be worth the $1000 difference by itself. Since you'll be using this for work, any downtime would be wasted money. Diagnosing and RMA failed parts is a big pain in the rear. Much easier/faster to just call HP and have them fix it.

I still believe a DIY build can match the quietness of the OEM, but it will take some effort. It's not a plug and go kind of deal. You'll have to tweak the cpu/case/gpu fans speeds. But in any case, I think the noise floor for both your proposed diy build and hp build will be dominated by the 480. Since HP is not officially supporting the 480, they are probably using stock cooling on the card instead of something custom. So it won't be any better than what you can buy off the shelf.

In short, I think the z800 will be a good buy if you'd rather not spend time testing and tweaking a DIY system. At stock settings, the diy system will definitely be louder than the z800. But with a little bit of tweaking, you can easily get the rest of the system to be overwhelmed by the noise of the 480.

A much quieter option would be getting a 5870/5850 and a custom cooler, than strap on a 120mm fan on it. Though if you need the capability of a 480/5970, then you need it. Not much choice in the matter. A 5970 is a bit quieter than a 480 according to Anandtech's review. For reference, I had a 5770 with stock settings that was easily audible over case/cpu 120mm fan at 900rpm under load. But there's so much thermal headroom that I was able to forced fan to be locked at minimum 20% speed. The card got hot (75C ish) under load, but still within tolerance of the card.