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Quick Look at Bush's European Tour

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Bush is doing a good job of both making nice and reiterating his tough message about a proactive USA. I'm sure part of the favorable reception is due to the mild success of Iraqi elections... otherwise it would have been a "told-you-so" merry-go-round.

The problem is Bush is delaying an inevitable discussion. In his speech he states "the alliance of Europe and North America is the main pillar of our security." This is cold war thinking and is ultimately, simply not true.

Yes Europe maintains an oversized diplomatic role in the world, a remnant of a post-wwII world. But US security interests are NOT rooted in Europe any longer. Yes Europe remains an important economic partner (although Western Europe is a declining economic force), but the US committment to protect Europe is no longer necessary with the demise of the Soviet Union. And now that they don't need the protection, they have turned against their "masters" as the new threat to their interests. Indeed, many European nations have it in their agenda to oppose US hegemony.

The EU has one and half times the population and a slightly larger economy. There is no realistic threat to them that they shouldn't be able to handle on their own. It's time they man-up and take care of their own defense.

Many people think that anything that diminishes the US's military or diplomatic influence is contrary to our interests... but this isn't true, especially in Europe. Times have changed, threats have changed, and warfare has changed. NATO is an anachronism.

Good relationships are better than bad relationships, but our military ties to Europe are no longer the main event in protecting American interests. The new way is the "coalition of the willing" model rather than some decrepid alliance where one or two poor sports veto reasonable actions.

 
I agree that the EU needs to implement its own military. The problem is, most of the significant countries in the EU aren't exactly on firm fiscal ground as it is because their social programs are sucking the life out of them. A military of their own would put many of them deeply in the red, not to mention the loss of income from US troops withdrawing in force from Europe. It would be quite a shock to the old world, financially, which is part of the reason some of the EU are warming back up to Bush. They see this possibility on the horizon and are scared to death of having to renogotiate their 35 hour workweek, 8 weeks of vacation, and assurances of retirement on the government dole just so they can iplement something they should have been doing for themselves for some time now anyway.
 
Threats? Sucking the life out of us?

With any fvcking luck, denmark won't have a military in 10 years. Americans are perverted.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The world cannot afford a militarily strong Europe. History has shown that they do not know control.
:cookie:
and egypt will end up building more pyramids using thousands of slaves
and the mongols will raid every city they enter
and the vatican will start a new crusade
 
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The world cannot afford a militarily strong Europe. History has shown that they do not know control.
:cookie:
and egypt will end up building more pyramids using thousands of slaves
and the mongols will raid every city they enter
and the vatican will start a new crusade

The Europeans were in power relatively recently. They are the same or similar societies, governments, etc. I don't feel that European societies have progressed enough, particularly with WW2 (maybe with the exception of Germany) and colonialism. Many still celebrate colonialism.

The world cannot survive another rape. Luckily, Europe is aging rapidly, shrinking in population, diminishing in worldwide importance, and sliding in technology. I don't think those factors will help them militarily.

Hopefully the US will retain some military presence in Europe as a check.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The world cannot afford a militarily strong Europe. History has shown that they do not know control.
:cookie:
and egypt will end up building more pyramids using thousands of slaves
and the mongols will raid every city they enter
and the vatican will start a new crusade

The Europeans were in power relatively recently. They are the same or similar societies, governments, etc. I don't feel that European societies have progressed enough, particularly with WW2 (maybe with the exception of Germany). Many still celebrate colonialism.

The world cannot survive another rape. Luckily, Europe is aging rapidly, shrinking in population, diminishing in worldwide importance, and sliding in technology. I don't think those factors will help them militarily.

Hopefully the US will retain some military presence in Europe as a check.
:cookie:
and japan will enslave asia
and russia will send good parts of its population to siberia
and the us will create concentration camps for the japanese
 
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The world cannot afford a militarily strong Europe. History has shown that they do not know control.
:cookie:
and egypt will end up building more pyramids using thousands of slaves
and the mongols will raid every city they enter
and the vatican will start a new crusade

The Europeans were in power relatively recently. They are the same or similar societies, governments, etc. I don't feel that European societies have progressed enough, particularly with WW2 (maybe with the exception of Germany). Many still celebrate colonialism.

The world cannot survive another rape. Luckily, Europe is aging rapidly, shrinking in population, diminishing in worldwide importance, and sliding in technology. I don't think those factors will help them militarily.

Hopefully the US will retain some military presence in Europe as a check.
:cookie:
and japan will enslave asia
and russia will send good parts of its population to siberia
and the us will create concentration camps for the japanese

Japanese society has transformed much since WW2.
I wouldn't be surprised if Russia does something crazy, especially with the rise of the far-right spreading there from Europe.
While the concentration camps aren't in the same league as above, I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened.

Additionally, all of those are hated, not celebrated whereas Europe seems to celebrate its atrocities. Is there any other part of the world that celebrates colonialism? 😕

You're ignoring hundreds of years of reptition and examples in regards to Europe raping the entire world over and over. And now we see some of the same roots resurfacing again. They have not learned anything from history.
 
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The world cannot afford a militarily strong Europe. History has shown that they do not know control.
:cookie:
and egypt will end up building more pyramids using thousands of slaves
and the mongols will raid every city they enter
and the vatican will start a new crusade

The Europeans were in power relatively recently. They are the same or similar societies, governments, etc. I don't feel that European societies have progressed enough, particularly with WW2 (maybe with the exception of Germany). Many still celebrate colonialism.

The world cannot survive another rape. Luckily, Europe is aging rapidly, shrinking in population, diminishing in worldwide importance, and sliding in technology. I don't think those factors will help them militarily.

Hopefully the US will retain some military presence in Europe as a check.
:cookie:
and japan will enslave asia
and russia will send good parts of its population to siberia
and the us will create concentration camps for the japanese

It's of no use Czar, just as there are ppl on this side of the pond thinking the US is responsible for everything and anything bad in the world - the opposite is true for some on the opposite side...

 
"Europe seems to celebrate its atrocities"

???? please please post some sources to your idea of celebrating atrocities, I'd love to know what you have been reading

and damnit, I'm falling for the trollbait, oh well
 
and please I want a propper answer not like the ones I got the last time I tried to get something out of you where you get your ideas

q:"setting up concentration camps "
why is it concentration camps and not refugee camp?
a: Perhaps they are rainbow sunshine camps!

q:"and other unwanted elements of society"
so, more than refugees, who?
a: Undesirable elements of society including refugees, illegal immigrants, etc. It is quite possible that they would deport people born in their own countries and other established people there.

q: "where they would be murdered and tortured "
basis of a fact is where?
a: Libya is a fine and great country, huh?

you do love to jump to conclusions alot, here :cookie:
 
Originally posted by: Czar
"Europe seems to celebrate its atrocities"

???? please please post some sources to your idea of celebrating atrocities, I'd love to know what you have been reading

and damnit, I'm falling for the trollbait, oh well

Damn, and I thought I was falling for the trollbait.

link

Only recently have they started to criticize it.

I'm sure there are many examples if one looks hard enough. The British sure seem to be proud of their once might empire, for example.
 
Originally posted by: B00ne

It's of no use Czar, just as there are ppl on this side of the pond thinking the US is responsible for everything and anything bad in the world - the opposite is true for some on the opposite side...

No, Europe is not to blame for everything in the world.

Look at your own post - criticism of Europe or feeling uncomfortable with them building up militarily means that they are responsible for all the wrongdoings of the world? Of course not. Sometimes I feel that Europe goes to extremes too quickly, just like your post.

Many feel uncomfortable with Japan building up militarily. I feel the same with Europe.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Czar
"Europe seems to celebrate its atrocities"

???? please please post some sources to your idea of celebrating atrocities, I'd love to know what you have been reading

and damnit, I'm falling for the trollbait, oh well

Damn, and I thought I was falling for the trollbait.

link
so because of this you jump to the conclusion that "Europe seems to celebrate its atrocities" ?

we could disect the article to see that some people want to change the museum to show everything that happened, that some people want to keep it to show how the belgians used to view their colonial times or some people who refuse to face the truth, but that would not fit your agenda now would it since you only see the last part those three groups and then go on and brand it on everyone and declare the old evil europe is still evil

I'm not sure if you see this but if we would go to any country in the world and take certain parts of their history, of their culture, of their lives and then brand it over everyone then just about every country in the world would look pretty bad.
 
Originally posted by: B00ne
It's of no use Czar, just as there are ppl on this side of the pond thinking the US is responsible for everything and anything bad in the world - the opposite is true for some on the opposite side...

that is very true, the world is amazingly varied but at the same time not
 
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Czar
"Europe seems to celebrate its atrocities"

???? please please post some sources to your idea of celebrating atrocities, I'd love to know what you have been reading

and damnit, I'm falling for the trollbait, oh well

Damn, and I thought I was falling for the trollbait.

link
so because of this you jump to the conclusion that "Europe seems to celebrate its atrocities" ?

we could disect the article to see that some people want to change the museum to show everything that happened, that some people want to keep it to show how the belgians used to view their colonial times or some people who refuse to face the truth, but that would not fit your agenda now would it since you only see the last part those three groups and then go on and brand it on everyone and declare the old evil europe is still evil

Societies are fragmented, they are not hive-minds that all believe in the same thing.

I'm not sure if you see this but if we would go to any country in the world and take certain parts of their history, of their culture, of their lives and then brand it over everyone then just about every country in the world would look pretty bad.

Of course. But not many would be proud of the particularly bad parts such as many Europeans with colonialism and their empires. Many still refuse to accept blame for the atrocities or they're considered 'sensitive' subjects.

I'm just uncomfortable with a military strong Europe. However, like I stated previously, several factors seem to stunt it.
 
and yet you keep branding europe as all evil

there is little hope for you 🙁, the sad part as I have seen with both the far left and the far right on this forum that once you stray far enough you only go further and further. When you started posting about bad stuff happening in europe I welcomed it, topics about europe yes, you even made alot of good points about how neonatzies were on the rise, nationalism and other things, all valid critizisms which people should discuss and should take notice of. But then it was all a slippery slope downwards. Sad to see it go this way.
 
Originally posted by: Czar
and yet you keep branding europe as all evil

there is little hope for you 🙁, the sad part as I have seen with both the far left and the far right on this forum that once you stray far enough you only go further and further. When you started posting about bad stuff happening in europe I welcomed it, topics about europe yes, you even made alot of good points about how neonatzies were on the rise, nationalism and other things, all valid critizisms which people should discuss and should take notice of. But then it was all a slippery slope downwards. Sad to see it go this way.

Where did I say that Europe was all evil in this thread? Just like many here, when someone offers any criticism, you swing to an extreme. Most of the posters went to extremes. Those threads were useless because they were filled with posters full of nationalistic pride that couldn't accept criticism.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Czar
and yet you keep branding europe as all evil

there is little hope for you 🙁, the sad part as I have seen with both the far left and the far right on this forum that once you stray far enough you only go further and further. When you started posting about bad stuff happening in europe I welcomed it, topics about europe yes, you even made alot of good points about how neonatzies were on the rise, nationalism and other things, all valid critizisms which people should discuss and should take notice of. But then it was all a slippery slope downwards. Sad to see it go this way.

Where did I say that Europe was all evil in this thread? Just like many here, when someone offers any criticism, you swing to an extreme. Most of the posters went to extremes. Those threads were useless because they were filled with posters full of nationalistic pride that couldn't accept criticism and would spout off strange discussions that were eerily similar to pro-apartheid reasoning.

your posts are no longer criticism, its a personal crusade which really is not worth replying to anymore
 
Originally posted by: Czar

your posts are no longer criticism, its a personal crusade which really is not worth replying to anymore

Funny, that seems like your posts, too, especially in this thread. Is it some sort of crusade for your to reform my own personal thoughts? All I stated is that I believe that Europe does not know control and shouldn't be militarily strong. People would use the same argument for Japan. I don't see why this is any different.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Czar

your posts are no longer criticism, its a personal crusade which really is not worth replying to anymore

Funny, that seems like your posts, too, especially in this thread. Is it some sort of crusade for your to reform my own personal thoughts? All I stated is that I believe that Europe does not know control and shouldn't be militarily strong. People would use the same argument for Japan. I don't see why this is any different.

We have killed our millions too, and it is we who now attack the world. You can get out of the Europhobic mode now.

"Europe" is a geographical area. Europe NEVER attacked ANYONE EVER. Why, because Europe IS A GEOGRAPHICAL AREA.

The COUNTRIES within it have made war, and on who? Each other for the most part. Their expansion and domination of other areas and war was because the countries there competed with each other. War with France and England, Germany and France, on and on.

Now there is a fundamental change within Europe. They don't want to repeat WWII, which caused far more death and distruction than any terrorist threat is likely to. People there are sick of it. They also have something they did not. The ability to travel and communicate with each other in a way that was not possible even 60 years ago. They have a common currency. They will have a common Constitution too. They are where we were after the Revolutionary war, with independent states trying to form some type of cohesive government that still gives the individual states some rights. With the ability to travel, and communication being so easy, the chances of them having a Civil War as we did are smaller.

To say that "Europe" has a history of violence is true. Both they AND US had a nasty habit of wiping out natives. So who are we going to commit genocide against next? <Pin drops>

Europe has no need to have a large standing army. The only world aggressor right now is the US and certain terrorists groups. Large armys are useless against the latter, and against us their best bet would be to nuke us, and expect the same. Not likely.

Who is going to attack them, Canada?

Anyway, I do agree with the OP in that we don't need to be in Europe to protect it. That isn't the reason we are there though. We have bases there because of stragic concerns. We use those bases for our own military purposes. It makes waging war globally much easier. We project a threat much more effectively if we maintain a global presence. In that sense we do share something with the British. The sun never sets on the US military.
 
Anyway, I do agree with the OP in that we don't need to be in Europe to protect it. That isn't the reason we are there though. We have bases there because of stragic concerns. We use those bases for our own military purposes. It makes waging war globally much easier. We project a threat much more effectively if we maintain a global presence. In that sense we do share something with the British. The sun never sets on the US military.

Changing our strategic outlook on Europe's role in America's security need not jeopardize our global presence. In a crude sort of way Europe is so 20th century. The Soviet threat that defined our security interests is gone and needs have changed: They no longer need us, and we no longer need them. We can and should keep a token military presence in Europe, just as we have in most areas of the world. But the underlying foundation of "the alliance of Europe and North America is the MAIN pillar of our security" just isn't so anymore, and we have better change things somewhat to reflect that reality.

What Europe thinks and wants still has consequences, but American security interests are no longer anchored there. As I said, they remain a valuable economic partner, but militarily it's becoming irrelevant. These days a formalized European secuirty relationship is neither necessary or beneficial to the United States. Threats of the future cannot be properly engaged by America if working under an obsolete umbrella. Projecting force and influence to confront today's challenges is best done through coalitions of the willing instead of tying our hands with "veto" authority from unwilling allies, when frankly, such allies do not share the same interests as us and in fact often work to subvert it.

 
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