Questions that were never really answered when I was still a religious person

[DurocShark]

A lot of the issues deal with the assumption that death is a bad thing. Part of Christian doctrine is that death is just a passing into heaven (if you're a "good" Christian) or hell (if you're not). So, from that perspective, God's allowing people to be killed is not necessarily bad.

Of course, there's more to death than just death. There's pain and suffering prior, plus the pain and suffering loved ones feel. And that's why we're offended by killing.

I've always found it interesting that those who follow a formal church's teachings are the most easily led to incorrect assumptions and misreadings of the text they follow (the Bible).

But those that just seek spirituality are able to discard man's interpretations and seek their own answers. To me, that's the most intelligent way to go. Don't believe everything you hear or read (including the Bible). Open your eyes and find the answers yourself. You may find that much that exists in religious texts is true, and much is either obsolete or flat incorrect.

We humans are flawed, even those supposedly working as God's hand when writing the books of the bible. Mistakes happen when people are involved!

If you believe in God (or any higher power), then find your own relationship with Him/Her. If the Catholic Church happens to fit your personal relationship, great! If Jehova's Witnesses are a good fit, awesome! If you just talk to God in your heart, and that fulfills you, terrific! Whatever works for you, because if there *is* a God, I seriously doubt He will care which building you use to talk to him. Or which flavor of holy scriptures you read.

Of course, I'm an atheist, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. heh

 

[FrustratedUser]

Quote, reply by SagaLore:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During a time when so many people don't believe in God why does'nt he make his prescence (sp?) known so that all might have the opportunity to know he exists?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are. Keep your eyes open. Remember at 9/11, when a "daisy chain" was created by an unknown leading person? Most miracles were never a meant to be a light show.


News flash:
The daisy chain was created by the people in the building, not God.

 

[gigapet]

so if the catholic church claimed god gave man the freedom of choice then why did they feel the need to go storming across the globe to take that right to choose away from people and force there dogma upon them. Why did they seek to rout out and destroy ancient knowledge from africa and especially seek to eliminate those practicing esoteric religions. Seems like they were going against gods plan of hey "lets give them free will and see what happens."

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: gigapet
so if the catholic church claimed god gave man the freedom of choice then why did they feel the need to go storming across the globe to take that right to choose away from people and force there dogma upon them. Why did they seek to rout out and destroy ancient knowledge from africa and especially seek to eliminate those practicing esoteric religions. Seems like they were going against gods plan of hey "lets give them free will and see what happens."

or you could say they were taking part in his plan by choosing to go against it 😛

 

[gigapet]

Originally posted by: Deslocke

Originally posted by: gigapet
so if the catholic church claimed god gave man the freedom of choice then why did they feel the need to go storming across the globe to take that right to choose away from people and force there dogma upon them. Why did they seek to rout out and destroy ancient knowledge from africa and especially seek to eliminate those practicing esoteric religions. Seems like they were going against gods plan of hey "lets give them free will and see what happens."

or you could say they were taking part in his plan by choosing to go against it 😛

bottomline is religions suck and spirituality is where its at.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: Deslocke

Originally posted by: gigapet
so if the catholic church claimed god gave man the freedom of choice then why did they feel the need to go storming across the globe to take that right to choose away from people and force there dogma upon them. Why did they seek to rout out and destroy ancient knowledge from africa and especially seek to eliminate those practicing esoteric religions. Seems like they were going against gods plan of hey "lets give them free will and see what happens."

or you could say they were taking part in his plan by choosing to go against it 😛

bottomline is religions suck and spirituality is where its at.

sometimes it's hard to have spirituality without religion though. then again, sometimes it's even harder to have spirituality within religion. it's all very confusing 😕

 

[gigapet]

Originally posted by: Deslocke

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: Deslocke

Originally posted by: gigapet
so if the catholic church claimed god gave man the freedom of choice then why did they feel the need to go storming across the globe to take that right to choose away from people and force there dogma upon them. Why did they seek to rout out and destroy ancient knowledge from africa and especially seek to eliminate those practicing esoteric religions. Seems like they were going against gods plan of hey "lets give them free will and see what happens."

or you could say they were taking part in his plan by choosing to go against it 😛

bottomline is religions suck and spirituality is where its at.

sometimes it's hard to have spirituality without religion though. then again, sometimes it's even harder to have spirituality within religion. it's all very confusing 😕

its easier to tell someone what to do when they are confused.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: gigapet
its easier to tell someone what to do when they are confused.

how do you figure?

 

[gigapet]

Originally posted by: Deslocke

Originally posted by: gigapet
its easier to tell someone what to do when they are confused.

how do you figure?

who cares.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: Arkitech It seems the only way to handle problems like this is for God to actually state who he is and what he expects of people.

wasnt that the ten commandments?

Perhaps, but I'm sure the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and other non-christian religions may argue against it. Did the 10 commandments really exist? How do we really know if they did or did'nt?

dont the 10 commandments pretty much hold true through all major religions?

That's a pretty good point. Regardless of where the 10 commandments came from, if you pick apart each commandment and evaluate the cause and effect of following the commandment, you'd realize with them the world is a much better place. Even in a secular world.

so is it coincidence that all major religions have the same "beginning", The same symbolic references and the same moral code?

Not at all. I think they're all spin-offs from a few different starting points. A few times in the old testament and certainly a few from the new testament. Even early on when the first churches were formed, Paul had to keep tabs on them because they were having a problem mixing too much with the surrounding culture, i.e. they were becoming cult religions they had to quickly fix.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: Deslocke

Originally posted by: gigapet
its easier to tell someone what to do when they are confused.

how do you figure?

who cares.

lol.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: Deslocke

Originally posted by: gigapet
so if the catholic church claimed god gave man the freedom of choice then why did they feel the need to go storming across the globe to take that right to choose away from people and force there dogma upon them. Why did they seek to rout out and destroy ancient knowledge from africa and especially seek to eliminate those practicing esoteric religions. Seems like they were going against gods plan of hey "lets give them free will and see what happens."

or you could say they were taking part in his plan by choosing to go against it 😛

bottomline is religions suck and spirituality is where its at.

Bingo! We have a winner! 😀

 

[Arkitech]

Lots of good discussion going on in here.

I will also explain what I have learned.


Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Arkitech

If God is all powerful and loving why is the world in the condition its in today?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I won't argue that God is all powerful, but I am not sure he all loving.
Remember he gave use the ability to choose. But once Adam and Eve
committed original sin, they were kicked out of paradise. And all loving
have you read the Book of Job. Not to mention Noah's Ark. Wiping out the world
isn't my view of all loving.

This is why I seriously doubt the bible these days. What happened to Job and the people during Noah's day suggest that something was either really wrong with God or that perhaps those accounts are fictional. If a man came to your door and said that it would rain rocks for 40 days and 40 nights and the only way to escape this horrible event was to join him in a big metal drill what would your response be? Then with Job, basically this man suffered immeasurable pain over a bet:

Satan: Hey God I bet that I can make that puny human Job stop worshipping you.
God: I'll take you up on that bet, but first lets lay down some rules.
Satan: Whatever you say, you're God after all.
God: Do whatever you want to the guy but just don't kill him
Satan: *rubbing hands gleefully* It'll be tough but I think I can manage that

In the end God proved his point to Satan, but at what cost? 10 of Job's children died, Job was struck with diseases, his wife ridiculed him, his friends abandonded him and he lost every cent that he had. Keep in mind Job is the good guy in this story and he got slapped around like a common criminal. In the end he got everything back, but that still does'nt changed the fact that he suffered greatly. And in addition 10 people had to die just to prove someone elses point. Looking at that bible account really made have some serious doubts about the bible.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
Quote, reply by SagaLore:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During a time when so many people don't believe in God why does'nt he make his prescence (sp?) known so that all might have the opportunity to know he exists?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are. Keep your eyes open. Remember at 9/11, when a "daisy chain" was created by an unknown leading person? Most miracles were never a meant to be a light show.


News flash:
The daisy chain was created by the people in the building, not God.

News flash: Nobody knows who the lead person was. 😉

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
Quote, reply by SagaLore:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During a time when so many people don't believe in God why does'nt he make his prescence (sp?) known so that all might have the opportunity to know he exists?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are. Keep your eyes open. Remember at 9/11, when a "daisy chain" was created by an unknown leading person? Most miracles were never a meant to be a light show.


News flash:
The daisy chain was created by the people in the building, not God.

News flash: Nobody knows who the lead person was. 😉

But historically that kind of goes againts the nature of miracles, at least the ones in the bible. Typically miracles were extraordinairy events that were clearly the act of God. If there's some doubt where the miracle came from then any would come along and claim that it was this or that.

 

[gigapet]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: Arkitech It seems the only way to handle problems like this is for God to actually state who he is and what he expects of people.

wasnt that the ten commandments?

Perhaps, but I'm sure the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and other non-christian religions may argue against it. Did the 10 commandments really exist? How do we really know if they did or did'nt?

dont the 10 commandments pretty much hold true through all major religions?

That's a pretty good point. Regardless of where the 10 commandments came from, if you pick apart each commandment and evaluate the cause and effect of following the commandment, you'd realize with them the world is a much better place. Even in a secular world.

so is it coincidence that all major religions have the same "beginning", The same symbolic references and the same moral code?

Not at all. I think they're all spin-offs from a few different starting points. A few times in the old testament and certainly a few from the new testament. Even early on when the first churches were formed, Paul had to keep tabs on them because they were having a problem mixing too much with the surrounding culture, i.e. they were becoming cult religions they had to quickly fix.

why are the ancient texts taken so literally and not for what the general message is trying to say. Live a good life and good things will happen to you. Live a bad life and face the bad that will come back to you. Everything in the universe has a positive or a negative to it right down to the atomic level and sub atomic levels and the universe keeps a blance by matching positive input with positive output and vice versa.

 

[Vic]

Most people who never had strong faith to begin with have trouble with the Book of Job. In Job, you go from having faith in God because it benefits you (i.e. through salvation) to having faith in God because you accept His plan for humanity. People who never had faith in His plan usually lose faith entirely when forced to swallow the concepts in Job.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

This is why I seriously doubt the bible these days. What happened to Job and the people during Noah's day suggest that something was either really wrong with God

Or really wrong with People.

Think about this: In the few times where God wiped out an entire group of people save just a few, apparently the situation was extremely bad. I contribute it to saving the human race. In Africa, look at how bad HIV transmission has gotten. And Africans aren't the worst people in the world, they just like to have sex like everyone else. But take the most disgusting vile group of people you can imagine, and multiply it by 100. You have almost every person with a life threatening veneral disease, total social wrath, children and animals being used for sexual corruption, a completely moraless society.

As God (who gave people Choice), you either A.) let them wipe themselves out or B.) save the last untainted person to start new. Those people destroyed were Godless - they did not want God running their lives. I don't know about you, but it's nice not being a puppet.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: Vic
Most people who never had strong faith to begin with have trouble with the Book of Job. In Job, you go from having faith in God because it benefits you (i.e. through salvation) to having faith in God because you accept His plan for humanity. People who never had faith in His plan usually lose faith entirely when forced to swallow the concepts in Job.

This goes beyond an issue of faith, is it necessary to kill off innocent kids to test the faith of one man? What would you think of a political leader who killed children to test the loyalty of his administrative staff? What would you think of a husband who killed his wife's brothers and sisters to test her loyalty? The account in Job is a freakishly extreme way to test someone.

 

[isaacmacdonald]

Originally posted by: Vic
Most people who never had strong faith to begin with have trouble with the Book of Job. In Job, you go from having faith in God because it benefits you (i.e. through salvation) to having faith in God because you accept His plan for humanity. People who never had faith in His plan usually lose faith entirely when forced to swallow the concepts in Job.

err... exactly.

the old testament was all about total submission. it was geared towards people who most likely would be unable to grasp utilitarianism to a sufficient extent, and would otherwise engage in counterproductive behavior. job illustrates that man is not nearly as intelligent as god and can not see the master plan, therefore must accept his will or face damnation.

this kind of compulsion is largely outmoded.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: Vic
Most people who never had strong faith to begin with have trouble with the Book of Job. In Job, you go from having faith in God because it benefits you (i.e. through salvation) to having faith in God because you accept His plan for humanity. People who never had faith in His plan usually lose faith entirely when forced to swallow the concepts in Job.

This goes beyond an issue of faith, is it necessary to kill off innocent kids to test the faith of one man? What would you think of a political leader who killed children to test the loyalty of his administrative staff? What would you think of a husband who killed his wife's brothers and sisters to test her loyalty? The account in Job is a freakishly extreme way to test someone.

1. It is generally accepted among Bible scholars that Job was not a real person, and that the story was known to be a "parable" from the start.

2. What is death to God? To us, death is bad, but what is it to Him? It seems like you're thinking of God as though He were the President of the US or something like that.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Arkitech

This is why I seriously doubt the bible these days. What happened to Job and the people during Noah's day suggest that something was either really wrong with God

Or really wrong with People.

Think about this: In the few times where God wiped out an entire group of people save just a few, apparently the situation was extremely bad. I contribute it to saving the human race. In Africa, look at how bad HIV transmission has gotten. And Africans aren't the worst people in the world, they just like to have sex like everyone else. But take the most disgusting vile group of people you can imagine, and multiply it by 100. You have almost every person with a life threatening veneral disease, total social wrath, children and animals being used for sexual corruption, a completely moraless society.

As God (who gave people Choice), you either A.) let them wipe themselves out or B.) save the last untainted person to start new. Those people destroyed were Godless - they did not want God running their lives. I don't know about you, but it's nice not being a puppet.

You could have a point there, but if that was the case why did'nt the bible state that the conditions were that bad? And were the little children really so wicked already that they had NO other option other than to be drowned. But even beyond that there are some other moral issues that need to be addressed. According to scripture rebellious angels (demons) had sex with the women of earth who then gave birth to the Nephilim (powerful and giant size offsprint). So that kind of leads back to the issue that if these sinful angels had been dealt with right away then perhaps the world at that time would not have been so wicked.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: Vic
Most people who never had strong faith to begin with have trouble with the Book of Job. In Job, you go from having faith in God because it benefits you (i.e. through salvation) to having faith in God because you accept His plan for humanity. People who never had faith in His plan usually lose faith entirely when forced to swallow the concepts in Job.

This goes beyond an issue of faith, is it necessary to kill off innocent kids to test the faith of one man? What would you think of a political leader who killed children to test the loyalty of his administrative staff? What would you think of a husband who killed his wife's brothers and sisters to test her loyalty? The account in Job is a freakishly extreme way to test someone.

1. It is generally accepted among Bible scholars that Job was not a real person, and that the story was known to be a "parable" from the start.

2. What is death to God? To us, death is bad, but what is it to Him? It seems like you're thinking of God as though He were the President of the US or something like that.

I guess to God death is probably nothing but for humans who rarely live to see 100 years death is a big deal. Its especially tragic for a surviving person to see a loved one slip away in death, sure its not a big deal for a powerful spirit creature who's been around for thousands and thousands of years but for a man who's been cursed with sin, sickness and other frailities death is a enemy that must be avoided at all costs.

 

[fonzinator]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
Lots of good discussion going on in here.

I will also explain what I have learned.


Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Arkitech

If God is all powerful and loving why is the world in the condition its in today?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I won't argue that God is all powerful, but I am not sure he all loving.
Remember he gave use the ability to choose. But once Adam and Eve
committed original sin, they were kicked out of paradise. And all loving
have you read the Book of Job. Not to mention Noah's Ark. Wiping out the world
isn't my view of all loving.

This is why I seriously doubt the bible these days. What happened to Job and the people during Noah's day suggest that something was either really wrong with God or that perhaps those accounts are fictional. If a man came to your door and said that it would rain rocks for 40 days and 40 nights and the only way to escape this horrible event was to join him in a big metal drill what would your response be? Then with Job, basically this man suffered immeasurable pain over a bet:

Satan: Hey God I bet that I can make that puny human Job stop worshipping you.
God: I'll take you up on that bet, but first lets lay down some rules.
Satan: Whatever you say, you're God after all.
God: Do whatever you want to the guy but just don't kill him
Satan: *rubbing hands gleefully* It'll be tough but I think I can manage that

In the end God proved his point to Satan, but at what cost? 10 of Job's children died, Job was struck with diseases, his wife ridiculed him, his friends abandonded him and he lost every cent that he had. Keep in mind Job is the good guy in this story and he got slapped around like a common criminal. In the end he got everything back, but that still does'nt changed the fact that he suffered greatly. And in addition 10 people had to die just to prove someone elses point. Looking at that bible account really made have some serious doubts about the bible.

Great questions Arkitech! I wish I had time to make an intelligent response to all of them; at the moment I do not. However, I'd like to make a quick comment about your example of Job. Your recreated dialogue (see above) between God and Satan is a little off. Check out Job chapter 1 again. The text describes Satan "roaming the earth." - presumably to cause trouble. Now the next part is what the real kicker is!...Satan doesn't start the dialogue with God, rather God is the initiator. Furthermore, what is said between the two is an incredible insight into the relationship between God and Satan and God and us!

Here's my observation...God says to Satan in Job 1,"Where have you been?" Satan responds, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." THEN God says to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." What is so amazing about this dialogue is that God is the initiator in pointing out Job to Satan! Satan doesn't come up to God and say, "Hey God, I bet I can get that Job dude to curse you." Rather, the dialogue shows that God is in complete control Satan. Satan is not allowed to do ANYTHING to Job without permission from the Lord (as seen in Job 1). To the casual observer, this may seem inconsequential. But when carefully examined, this characteristic of God's absolute soverignty over EVERYTHING (Satan and the problem of evil, salvation, our daily lives, ect.) holds true throughout scripture.

To answer "the problem of evil," many theological facets must be examined. One of the pieces is God's soverignty...Is God soverign over all creation, or is his power limited in some way? Is God responsible for the evil of the world when he even allows it to happen (ie. suffering of Job)? These are just a few of some BIG questions that require resolution for one to have an accurate view of the God of the Bible. I can't understress the word BIG. To answer these questions will require study, time, and wrestling. I'd be happy to respond with my thoughts, but these topics are so enormous!

I would HIGHLY recommend a book called "Systematic Theology" by Wayne Grudem. You can find it at Amazon. His research is the most thorough I've ever seen. He cross-references every single theological point to 20-some Christian catecisms! He also does an amazingly thorough job of presenting you with multiptle sides to an argument, the evidences of each, then gives and supports his view. His work is highly respected among Christian theologians. The best thing about it, ANYONE can read it! It was written for the average person, not some hermunatical whiz-kid. 🙂

If I have time later today, I may try to respond to some more of your questions. Feel free to ask me anything and I'll try my best to answer intelligently with Scripture. Peace.

 

[gopunk]

i dunno, those questions are pretty high level... they're all sort of like "okay, suppose he exists, then what about this". the question i like to ask is, what proof do we have?

in any case, why does it matter if god kills innocent people if they go to heaven anyways? in the off chance that there is an afterlife, our life here is pretty short compared to eternity