Questions on Intel Gen 3 SSDs

Edrick

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Feb 18, 2010
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Does anyone have any information they can share on those new drives? I know some do but can not say. But there may be some bits of information that can come out.

What I know so far is that they will be built on the 25nm process and should come in double the capacities as they do now (for around the same price). Everything else I have heard can not be confirmed. But if the release dates are what the rumors say, I would think more information is out there already.

Will they support SATA 6Gbs? If so, will they max out the line similar to how current SSD's max out the SATA 3Gbs line? If not, does that mean we will not see many SATA 6Gbs drives anytime soon?

Will they be released with the SB platform in Q4 2010/Q1 2011? Or will they come later?

Will they be MLC or SLC? Or will they have SKUs for both?
 
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TemjinGold

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While I don't have information, I seriously doubt they will max out SATA III seeing as current drives aren't even maxing out SATA II. Drives will eventually do so but this would be too soon.

The other thing I've heard is that you'll get double the capacity for your dollar.
 

Edrick

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While I don't have information, I seriously doubt they will max out SATA III seeing as current drives aren't even maxing out SATA II. Drives will eventually do so but this would be too soon.

Why not? They already have PCIe SSDs that far exceed the SATA 6Gbs bandwidth. There will just be less of a need to use PCIe now. For example, OCZ could take their RevoDrive and throw a SATA 6Gbs interface on it.
 
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Voo

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Feb 27, 2009
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Why not? They already have PCIe SSDs that far exceed the SATA 6Gps bandwidth.
Those drives are all extremely expensive RAIDs and not single drives. The fastest single SSD at the moment is the C300 with the new Micron controller and those reach around 275mb for sequential read (i.e. around 25mb/s more than you could get with SATA2)
So SATA3 has some advantages, but it's not as if it'd change much. Though I'm sure they'll get it and if it's for marketing reasons alone..

You'll mostly get double capacity for better prices. How much an overhauled controller design will help with the speed, who knows? The G2 drives are showing their age, so the real question is how much better they'll be than other modern controller. Maybe a 30% improvement over the Micron controllers?
 

TemjinGold

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Why not? They already have PCIe SSDs that far exceed the SATA 6Gps bandwidth. There will just be less of a need to use PCIe now. For example, OCZ could take their RevoDrive and throw a SATA 6Gps interface on it.

Yes and those are 10-20x the price. If you're willing to shell out $5k-$6k for a drive, you can easily blow SATA III away. Case in point: 15k rpm scsi drives existed for ages but do you see any 15k drives that are ide/sata/etc.?
 

Lee Saxon

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Jan 31, 2010
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the real question is how much better they'll be than other modern controller.

Not for me.

If the improvement in $/GB is anywhere close to what people are speculating, I'd be fine with them being exactly the same speed. Anything extra is gravy.

For me the real question is "when can I buy one"
 

Edrick

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Yes and those are 10-20x the price. If you're willing to shell out $5k-$6k for a drive, you can easily blow SATA III away.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-578-_-Product

$369 for a 120GB drive that is double the fastest SATA 3Gps drives out today. Not much more than the Vertex 2. My point is they can easily put that drive into a case for SATA 6Gbs and almost saturate the SATA 6Gbs bandwidth.
 
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Emulex

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Jan 28, 2001
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you will see twice the storage for the same price once old stock is gone. (think about it crucial and intel pretty much control the market on their new 25nm)

you will see server based mlc products. yes people want it and they will bring it.

you will see x25-e SLC with super-capacitor for write-back cache.

You will see SAS dual ported interface. sas is far superior to sata, full duplex , lvd, dual ported allows redundant paths - which you kinda want.

when will you see new stuffs? when they feel like doling out engineering samples to anand and others.

i am hoping that they can work with (lsi,etc) to come up with some faster raid controllers with trim. tiered storage is where its at. it would be nice to have a big boy controller with fast enough cpu and ram to handle some SSD, some SAS mainline 15K, some sas midline (2-3TB).

sata really just needs to die in server environments. i can't imagine a dual ported sas controller really costs that much more than a single ported sata honestly.

heck i wish they'd just kill off sata for sas completely. alot of issues with cheap cabling is due to the cheaper signalling (half duplex,non differential signalling). so many headaches to save $5 on a drive man.
 
May 29, 2010
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As I have mentioned in another thread, the issue with cost/size isn't going to go away anytime soon. Sure SSD's will drop in price, but not greatly when you compare SSD generations to hard drive generations. The biggest issue is simply about NAND memory densities and production capabilities. With a hard drive, they could find ways to pack more data into a small space by refining the surfaces of the platters, heads, and other such stuff. With SSD's it's about the number of NAND chips and the densities of each chip.

Unlike HD's, you cannot really do small-step refinement increase of storage amount per size. For example, some engineer might come up with a way to make platter substrate more smooth (just pulling an example out of my ass). Bam! That's an immediate possible increase in storage capability, since bits can now be packed more tightly together.

NAND memory is pretty much set in size by the particular process (35nm, 25nm, whatever). Thusly for a certain size chip, a particular amount of memory is all you will ever get from that process. The best you can really do is increase the amount of yield per wafer (percentage of good chips from the original silicon wafer) through process improvements, but you will never be able to pack more data storage hold ability into the chip unless you change the chip completely.

Unfortunately to change the chip completely, generally means new fab equipment. All the equipment in the existing fab process is built around that process. You can't just "tune them up" to make higher density chips. It doesn't work that way. Fabs are DAMN expensive and only a couple of memory makers actually have the cash to to do this currently. Micron is one and I think Samsung (which gets a LOT of help by the Korean gov't) might be the other. The other issue with fabs is that they take a long time to get online. So even "if" a bunch of the memory makers (the majority of which are in lots of financial trouble after the last few years of economic crap) could get loans to open a new fab, it would be a couple of years before anything rolled off the lines, and as you know in the electronics/computers business, two years is a lifetime.

In addition there is a LOT of competition for NAND memory to be put into different devices, so each chip has a certain market value outside of SSD useage (e.g. cell phones, etc, etc). Like SSD's, these other device market prices are constrained by NAND supply/pricing. While a company like Micron can see the benefit of having an SSD division, it's primary goal is to sell memory, and if somone like Apple comes along with some new super-Ipad or something and wants to buy a all of Micron's NAND at better prices/profits than Micron would get selling them in SSD's, where do you think the memory is going to go? There aren't that many memory makers making large supplies of NAND chips, so if something popular comes out that uses NAND, it affects all the pricing of all the other devices that use NAND.

PCIe type boards are going to come down in price compared to regular SSD's even slower. As I mentioned NAND chips have a market set price for each. The more you pack on a board (regardless of the type of board), overall price goes shooting up. There is no quantity discount type deal on these type of boards and the market is much smaller, thusly the development costs are much higher compared to the return.

For SSD performance, the current biggest issue is SATA chipsets. Other than Intel, they pretty much all suck. With hard drives, you couldn't really tell how bad these SATA chipsets/drivers sucked because the limitations were generally the hard drives. With decent SSD's and a few benchmarks/compatibility test, you can see how bad some of these non-Intel SATA chips and drivers SUCK! And not that Intel's SATA controller is super incredible, it's just better than everyone else's by far. Intel needs to get off it's ass and integrate some SATA3! SATA3 is currently a gimmick for a couple of benchmarks currently.
 

TemjinGold

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Dec 16, 2006
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http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-578-_-Product

$369 for a 120GB drive that is double the fastest SATA 3Gps drives out today. Not much more than the Vertex 2. My point is they can easily put that drive into a case for SATA 6Gps and almost saturate the SATA 6Gps bandwidth.

You DO realize that the RevoDrive is basically a RAID 0 of 2 SSDs plopped onto one card, right? That's why its advertised speeds are twice as fast as SATA 2.0 drives, NOT because OCZ figured out some miracle on the cheap (you can accomplish the same by buying 2 60gig drives and raiding them yourself; since ICH10's raid is actually better than the raid on that card, 2 decent 60 gig drives will beat this.) Your BIOS will see it as a raid array and it carries all the negatives of one as well (no TRIM, no garbage collecting.) I'm not saying it's a bad drive but a RAID solution does not prove that they can easily do this now for a single drive.
 

Edrick

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Feb 18, 2010
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You DO realize that the RevoDrive is basically a RAID 0 of 2 SSDs plopped onto one card, right?

Of course. They do the same thing with their Colossus as well. And to be honest, if someone did that and slaped on a SATA 6Gbs adapter, I would not care one bit. I am hoping that Intel will find a way to do it without resorting to using internal RAID, but I will take the speed anyway I can.

PS. I would own a RevoDrive if I had somewhere to put it. (Also I heard they cheaped out on the internal PCIe controller.)
 

Edrick

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You will see SAS dual ported interface. sas is far superior to sata, full duplex , lvd, dual ported allows redundant paths - which you kinda want.

I hear that the X58 upgrade chipset with SB-E will have both SAS 6Gbs and SATA 6 Gbs. Maybe their new SSds will support SAS, which as you state would be a great thing.
 

TemjinGold

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Dec 16, 2006
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Of course. They do the same thing with their Colossus as well. And to be honest, if someone did that and slaped on a SATA 6Gbs adapter, I would not care one bit. I am hoping that Intel will find a way to do it without resorting to using internal RAID, but I will take the speed anyway I can.

PS. I would own a RevoDrive if I had somewhere to put it. (Also I heard they cheaped out on the internal PCIe controller.)

Yes, that's how they kept the price low as PCIe solutions are generally expensive. Since you don't mind one bit a raid solution with no trim and no gc, why not just buy a couple of small SSDs and raid them yourself? The end result would be better seeing as ICH10 is better than the RevoDrive's implement.

In any case, that does nothing to change the answer I gave for your original question, which was if the G3 would max out the Sata III bandwidth. AFAIK, Intel made no mention of going the RAID path so unless that changes, the answer is still no.
 

Emulex

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Jan 28, 2001
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I hear that the X58 upgrade chipset with SB-E will have both SAS 6Gbs and SATA 6 Gbs. Maybe their new SSds will support SAS, which as you state would be a great thing.

nice!! bout damn time. sas is so cool because you can run a HBA with 4 6gbps links (full duplex thats alot!) to a san; for peanuts compared to 8gbps fiber channel and obviously the 4 6gbps link SF-8088 is faster than 4gbps fiber.

I wonder if you can to SAS to SAS like scsi.


one pc has a ton of drives; 4 dual-port sas hba's and you connect up 4 PC's with sas hba's to that one file server. hmm.

cheaper than 10gbe for direct connect. you know they have sas-switches? hp makes them. they are blade only right now but i heard from a friend of a friend they will sell them for regular proliants or rather external.

plus sas has the nifty expanders :)

I love me some SAS