Questions Chrysler's chapter 11

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
22,161
6,386
136
Is Chrysler's union contract voided or otherwise modified by bankruptcy?
What about pension's and the people collecting them and those about to retire?
Medical benefits for retired employees, does Chrysler still have to pay them?

I'm trying to figure out if bankruptcy is just going to hose the people they borrowed from, or if it will lead to any long term reduction in labor costs and benefits.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Labor contracts are void,
defined benefit plans are protected by PBGC (http://www.pbgc.gov/)) to some maximum. Doesn't cover health benefits though.

The rest of it is up for arbitration IIRC, health care benefits for retirees is another long term liability.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Is Chrysler's union contract voided or otherwise modified by bankruptcy?
It's up to the judge to decide that.

What about pension's and the people collecting them and those about to retire?
I'm unsure if the pension fund remains in place or if it gets absorbed by the PBGC. It's not the companies money anymore. It wasn't the moment it went into the fund.

Medical benefits for retired employees, does Chrysler still have to pay them?
Their contractual agreement only covered until Medicare kicked in. I don't know how this shakes down. Those currently on Medicare would obviously not be affected.

Chrysler has announced that five plants would close for good and immediately closed them. They then offered up to Fiat any plant that they wished to pay for. Chrysler Corporation will cease to exist if this bankruptcy succeeds.

I also found it interesting that they ceased operations at every plant they operate. Clearly, there will be some surprises regarding this bankruptcy. I don't even consider it a bankruptcy at this point. I don't know what the correct term would be, but it looks like a means to sell a U.S. owned company to a foreign corporation in a streamlined manner.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
5,947
0
0
Originally posted by: Greenman
snip ...

I'm trying to figure out if bankruptcy is just going to hose the people they borrowed from, ...

Chrysler was forced into bankruptcy because some of the bondholders thought they could get a better deal that way. Every lender will lose. Many had accepted Chrysler's offer.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
I am thinking that the bondholders are expecting the government to come through with some type of bailout package that helps the company recover and thus they will get more that way than with what they were offered.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,837
2,622
136
Getting legal opinions via an internet forum is like walking into a bar for a surgical consult.

For example, both of the above answers regarding union contracts are wrong (a basic answer is that union contracts are voidable under certain circumstances and within certain time periods). See 11 USC section 365.

It's best to right to the source-Title 11 of the federal statutes. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is governed by Chapter 11 (duh) of Title 11 Chapter 11 statutes but other more general parts of the bankruptcy code-in particular Chapter 3 and Chapter 5 have significant roles.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am thinking that the bondholders are expecting the government to come through with some type of bailout package that helps the company recover and thus they will get more that way than with what they were offered.



Maybe, But if I was betting on anything I would bet the bondholders were looking at ~30 cents on the dollar in bankruptcy and selling the stock short to make up the difference.
If they timed it right they will make more money faster that way.

Just a guess.

..
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
They will void the union contract and eliminate the job bank in order to honor the stipulations set for the merge with Fiat motors.

Fiat refuses to pay people who are not working.

GM is extremely likely to follow suit.

Ford will probably eliminate it in negotiations with the UAW after the other 2 get out from underneath it via Chapter 11.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: halik
Labor contracts are void,
defined benefit plans are protected by PBGC (http://www.pbgc.gov/)) to some maximum. Doesn't cover health benefits though.

The rest of it is up for arbitration IIRC, health care benefits for retirees is another long term liability.

Well if uaw gets to own 55% of Chrysler, it will be interested to see labor talks with uaw sitting on both sides of the table....
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,837
2,622
136
Originally posted by: Kwatt
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am thinking that the bondholders are expecting the government to come through with some type of bailout package that helps the company recover and thus they will get more that way than with what they were offered.



Maybe, But if I was betting on anything I would bet the bondholders were looking at ~30 cents on the dollar in bankruptcy and selling the stock short to make up the difference.
If they timed it right they will make more money faster that way.

Just a guess.

..

Chrysler is not publically traded so there is no opportunity to short stock (even if the bondholders owned some). Also, once a publically traded company enters Chapter 11, for all practical purposes the time for shorting stock has passed. At that point the probable value of the common stock is zero or very close to it and everyone knows that.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Originally posted by: Acanthus
They will void the union contract and eliminate the job bank in order to honor the stipulations set for the merge with Fiat motors.

Fiat refuses to pay people who are not working.

GM is extremely likely to follow suit.

Ford will probably eliminate it in negotiations with the UAW after the other 2 get out from underneath it via Chapter 11.
You should really crawl out from under your rock more often. The jobs bank was eliminated many months ago - at all the automakers.



 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I still think all the American Car manufacturers should just shut down and wait it out. Eventually people will start needing new cars. Then the Government would beg them to open back up after they are stuck with all the laid off workers they have to pay unemployment for. Filing bankruptcy could be a big win for car manufacturers if judges allowed restructuring their business model to a model more in line with the industry worldwide or at least compared to other manufacturing facilities. I could see an externally managed retirement plan with possible partial matching funds, and negotiated health benefits. I think it may be typical to save for your own retirement using a model of about 8% of the employees own money.

They could try to break the unions completely and hire scabs.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
Originally posted by: Thump553
Originally posted by: Kwatt
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am thinking that the bondholders are expecting the government to come through with some type of bailout package that helps the company recover and thus they will get more that way than with what they were offered.



Maybe, But if I was betting on anything I would bet the bondholders were looking at ~30 cents on the dollar in bankruptcy and selling the stock short to make up the difference.
If they timed it right they will make more money faster that way.

Just a guess.

..

Chrysler is not publically traded so there is no opportunity to short stock (even if the bondholders owned some). Also, once a publically traded company enters Chapter 11, for all practical purposes the time for shorting stock has passed. At that point the probable value of the common stock is zero or very close to it and everyone knows that.



Thank You

Apparently everyone knew but me.:eek:


..
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Originally posted by: piasabird
I still think all the American Car manufacturers should just shut down and wait it out. Eventually people will start needing new cars. Then the Government would beg them to open back up after they are stuck with all the laid off workers they have to pay unemployment for. Filing bankruptcy could be a big win for car manufacturers if judges allowed restructuring their business model to a model more in line with the industry worldwide or at least compared to other manufacturing facilities. I could see an externally managed retirement plan with possible partial matching funds, and negotiated health benefits. I think it may be typical to save for your own retirement using a model of about 8% of the employees own money.

They could try to break the unions completely and hire scabs.
The pension funds are not at the heart of the problem. The pension funds for the most part across the domestic three are fully funded or nearly fully funded. It has to be changed however because it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable for any business. This 'test case' has proven that out.

The problem is how do you transition to an employee funded system? You can't just change it overnight. Although bankruptcy will accomplish this.

Health care is the true problem. Contrary to popular belief, hourly employees of the domestic three had company funded health care (with co-pays) that ceased when the employee became eligible for Medicare. The problem now is how to fund health care for current employees and retirees that are not yet eligible for Medicare. The costs have skyrocketed not just for automakers, it's across the board.

One other thing I'd like to bring up. Yes, autoworkers are eligible to retire after reaching 30 years of service. Then they draw a pension. However, when SS kicks in, their pension benefit is then reduced by the amount they receive from SS.

All this is in regards to hourly workers. Many people confuse the benefits salaried workers used to have with what hourly receives. Hourly and salary benefits at this point in time are so similar that it's not worth talking of the differences.

Bankruptcy will change everything. So, everything I wrote above is pretty much meaningless at this point.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am thinking that the bondholders are expecting the government to come through with some type of bailout package that helps the company recover and thus they will get more that way than with what they were offered.

I heard some stuff about bondholders buying CDS so they'd actually benefit if the company went under. Have y'all heard anything about it?
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Originally posted by: boomerang
Is Chrysler's union contract voided or otherwise modified by bankruptcy?
It's up to the judge to decide that.

What about pension's and the people collecting them and those about to retire?
I'm unsure if the pension fund remains in place or if it gets absorbed by the PBGC. It's not the companies money anymore. It wasn't the moment it went into the fund.

Medical benefits for retired employees, does Chrysler still have to pay them?
Their contractual agreement only covered until Medicare kicked in. I don't know how this shakes down. Those currently on Medicare would obviously not be affected.

Chrysler has announced that five plants would close for good and immediately closed them. They then offered up to Fiat any plant that they wished to pay for. Chrysler Corporation will cease to exist if this bankruptcy succeeds.

I also found it interesting that they ceased operations at every plant they operate. Clearly, there will be some surprises regarding this bankruptcy. I don't even consider it a bankruptcy at this point. I don't know what the correct term would be, but it looks like a means to sell a U.S. owned company to a foreign corporation in a streamlined manner.

This is exactly what has happened.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: halik
Labor contracts are void,
defined benefit plans are protected by PBGC (http://www.pbgc.gov/)) to some maximum. Doesn't cover health benefits though.

The rest of it is up for arbitration IIRC, health care benefits for retirees is another long term liability.

Well if uaw gets to own 55% of Chrysler, it will be interested to see labor talks with uaw sitting on both sides of the table....

Actually so am I, this might be a very good move that will balance UAW interests. Instead of featherbedding jobs, they can strive for efficiency and then pay the profits back to the workers.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: woodie1
Originally posted by: Greenman
snip ...

I'm trying to figure out if bankruptcy is just going to hose the people they borrowed from, ...

Chrysler was forced into bankruptcy because some of the bondholders thought they could get a better deal that way. Every lender will lose. Many had accepted Chrysler's offer.

Not every, secured debt holders will just take possession of whatever collateral chrysler put up in 07
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am thinking that the bondholders are expecting the government to come through with some type of bailout package that helps the company recover and thus they will get more that way than with what they were offered.

I heard some stuff about bondholders buying CDS so they'd actually benefit if the company went under. Have y'all heard anything about it?

They would've had to buy them loong time ago, my fixed income prof. was saying that GM and Chrysler CDs were trading 95-99cents on the dollar back in october.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: halik
Labor contracts are void,
defined benefit plans are protected by PBGC (http://www.pbgc.gov/)) to some maximum. Doesn't cover health benefits though.

The rest of it is up for arbitration IIRC, health care benefits for retirees is another long term liability.

Well if uaw gets to own 55% of Chrysler, it will be interested to see labor talks with uaw sitting on both sides of the table....

Actually so am I, this might be a very good move that will balance UAW interests. Instead of featherbedding jobs, they can strive for efficiency and then pay the profits back to the workers.

I vote for "milk it dry" until they go bk again next decade where they will get bailed out again.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am thinking that the bondholders are expecting the government to come through with some type of bailout package that helps the company recover and thus they will get more that way than with what they were offered.

I heard some stuff about bondholders buying CDS so they'd actually benefit if the company went under. Have y'all heard anything about it?

They would've had to buy them loong time ago, my fixed income prof. was saying that GM and Chrysler CDs were trading 95-99cents on the dollar back in october.

There's the arb play too. Buy the bonds for 1 cent, the CDS for 95c. Cost 96c, payoff 100c, profit 4c.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: halik
Labor contracts are void,
defined benefit plans are protected by PBGC (http://www.pbgc.gov/)) to some maximum. Doesn't cover health benefits though.

The rest of it is up for arbitration IIRC, health care benefits for retirees is another long term liability.

Well if uaw gets to own 55% of Chrysler, it will be interested to see labor talks with uaw sitting on both sides of the table....

Actually so am I, this might be a very good move that will balance UAW interests. Instead of featherbedding jobs, they can strive for efficiency and then pay the profits back to the workers.

OR it might be a recipe for diaster withe uaw giving the workers everything they want.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I am thinking that the bondholders are expecting the government to come through with some type of bailout package that helps the company recover and thus they will get more that way than with what they were offered.

I heard some stuff about bondholders buying CDS so they'd actually benefit if the company went under. Have y'all heard anything about it?

They would've had to buy them loong time ago, my fixed income prof. was saying that GM and Chrysler CDs were trading 95-99cents on the dollar back in october.

There's the arb play too. Buy the bonds for 1 cent, the CDS for 95c. Cost 96c, payoff 100c, profit 4c.

I've read about that in WSJ back in September - I really don't think the CDS market is so inefficient that WSJ can write about an arb strategy and it will still work 8 months later...

Plus in this case, you'd have to find CDSs for less than 71c on the dollar to make the spead, because Obama defacto set a price floor on the bonds at 29 cents.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Here an interesting analysis of the Chrysler situation

Link

Why Chrysler?s Bondholders Should Stop Whining
By FLOYD NORRIS
Published: May 1, 2009

?It?s not fair.?

That is the response from many on Wall Street to the Obama administration?s rescue plan for Chrysler. The union is being treated better than the bondholders, and that is said to violate decades of bankruptcy law traditions.

If this were a normal bankruptcy, that complaint might be justified. But this one is far from normal.

The relevant law, it seems to me, is not bankruptcy but charity. Uncle Sam is acting as a philanthropist coming to the aid of a dying corporation. If this were Bill Gates choosing to fund public health agencies in Kenya but not Ethiopia, we might question his judgment, or try to persuade him to change his mind, but no one would argue he had a legal obligation to spread the money around.

If Chrysler were going into bankruptcy with available exit financing, the bondholders would have every right to fight for their share of the pie, and to argue that other creditors were getting an unfair share. It has no such financing available, other than from a government with no legal obligation to provide it.

If President Obama is willing to let Chrysler die if creditors do not accept his division of the money provided by the government, then creditors of Chrysler face a relatively simple set of questions.

First, can Chrysler raise the needed cash elsewhere? No.

Second, are bondholders likely to do better forcing a liquidation, and standing in line to collect whatever the assets bring at a bankruptcy auction? (What is the bid for an auto assembly plant in Detroit, with machines built to produce cars that will not be produced anymore?)

It is hard to imagine that the bondholders would be better off with such a sell-off. If so, and if the bondholders cannot persuade the government to raise its offer, they should take what is available, whether or not it seems fair. If Mr. Gates chose to offer less money to Ethiopia than to Kenya, would anyone recommend Ethiopia turn down the money because the split is unfair?

Analyses going around of how the new Chrysler stock would be distributed in a typical bankruptcy assume that Chrysler has the right to claim the government?s billions, and then split them among its own creditors. It does not.

To be sure, it is disquieting that in a capitalist economy it is the government making these decisions. But that is one result of the mistakes made by Detroit and Wall Street, over decades and in recent years. This is a company that cannot be saved without a lot of government help.

What is amazing in the Obama plan is how tough it is on the company. Rather than accepting optimistic assumptions of miraculous recovery, the administration forced the company to make some tough choices that it had been unable or unwilling to make in the past. Workers will lose their jobs. Dealers will lose their franchises, probably without the compensation that state laws seemed to provide. The current owners are losing everything they invested, and the former owner, Daimler, has been forced to put up a lot of money to avoid being sued.

In essence, the Obama administration has decided to spread around the stock in the new company based on its evaluations of the relative claims of differing groups. Would others make the same evaluation? Perhaps not, but that does not make it improper.

The stock being handed out will have value only if the new Chrysler survives. It is to be distributed to Fiat and the United States government, which are putting up a lot of cash and assets to help the company, and to retiree benefit plans. That increases the chance, but certainly does not assure, that more of the health care promises will be kept for Chrysler?s elderly former employees.

There is an argument to be made that bondholders have a better claim than the retirees, but it seems to me that a reasonable person could make the choice Mr. Obama made. The president chose to emphasize the contrast by calling the hedge funds, which bought the bonds at discount, speculators. That sounds nasty to some, but it is accurate. It is no doubt true that there is pension money invested in those hedge funds, but no one thought a hedge fund investment was risk-free.

It is said that the United Automobile Workers, which supported Mr. Obama in the election last year, is effectively being paid off by treating the bondholders worse than the retirees. I disagree. The retirees may have a little better chance of getting benefits they were promised, but the current workers are getting little more than being allowed to keep some of their jobs. Walter Reuther, the man who built the U.A.W., must be spinning in his grave at the concessions his successors are making.

This may come to be seen as Mr. Obama?s ?Nixon in China? moment. Just as it took a conservative Republican to open relations with the largest Communist country in the world, it took a liberal Democrat to break the U.A.W.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Here an interesting analysis of the Chrysler situation

Link

Why Chrysler?s Bondholders Should Stop Whining
By FLOYD NORRIS
Published: May 1, 2009

?It?s not fair.?

That is the response from many on Wall Street to the Obama administration?s rescue plan for Chrysler. The union is being treated better than the bondholders, and that is said to violate decades of bankruptcy law traditions.

If this were a normal bankruptcy, that complaint might be justified. But this one is far from normal.

The relevant law, it seems to me, is not bankruptcy but charity. Uncle Sam is acting as a philanthropist coming to the aid of a dying corporation. If this were Bill Gates choosing to fund public health agencies in Kenya but not Ethiopia, we might question his judgment, or try to persuade him to change his mind, but no one would argue he had a legal obligation to spread the money around.

If Chrysler were going into bankruptcy with available exit financing, the bondholders would have every right to fight for their share of the pie, and to argue that other creditors were getting an unfair share. It has no such financing available, other than from a government with no legal obligation to provide it.

If President Obama is willing to let Chrysler die if creditors do not accept his division of the money provided by the government, then creditors of Chrysler face a relatively simple set of questions.

First, can Chrysler raise the needed cash elsewhere? No.

Second, are bondholders likely to do better forcing a liquidation, and standing in line to collect whatever the assets bring at a bankruptcy auction? (What is the bid for an auto assembly plant in Detroit, with machines built to produce cars that will not be produced anymore?)

It is hard to imagine that the bondholders would be better off with such a sell-off. If so, and if the bondholders cannot persuade the government to raise its offer, they should take what is available, whether or not it seems fair. If Mr. Gates chose to offer less money to Ethiopia than to Kenya, would anyone recommend Ethiopia turn down the money because the split is unfair?

Analyses going around of how the new Chrysler stock would be distributed in a typical bankruptcy assume that Chrysler has the right to claim the government?s billions, and then split them among its own creditors. It does not.

To be sure, it is disquieting that in a capitalist economy it is the government making these decisions. But that is one result of the mistakes made by Detroit and Wall Street, over decades and in recent years. This is a company that cannot be saved without a lot of government help.

What is amazing in the Obama plan is how tough it is on the company. Rather than accepting optimistic assumptions of miraculous recovery, the administration forced the company to make some tough choices that it had been unable or unwilling to make in the past. Workers will lose their jobs. Dealers will lose their franchises, probably without the compensation that state laws seemed to provide. The current owners are losing everything they invested, and the former owner, Daimler, has been forced to put up a lot of money to avoid being sued.

In essence, the Obama administration has decided to spread around the stock in the new company based on its evaluations of the relative claims of differing groups. Would others make the same evaluation? Perhaps not, but that does not make it improper.

The stock being handed out will have value only if the new Chrysler survives. It is to be distributed to Fiat and the United States government, which are putting up a lot of cash and assets to help the company, and to retiree benefit plans. That increases the chance, but certainly does not assure, that more of the health care promises will be kept for Chrysler?s elderly former employees.

There is an argument to be made that bondholders have a better claim than the retirees, but it seems to me that a reasonable person could make the choice Mr. Obama made. The president chose to emphasize the contrast by calling the hedge funds, which bought the bonds at discount, speculators. That sounds nasty to some, but it is accurate. It is no doubt true that there is pension money invested in those hedge funds, but no one thought a hedge fund investment was risk-free.

It is said that the United Automobile Workers, which supported Mr. Obama in the election last year, is effectively being paid off by treating the bondholders worse than the retirees. I disagree. The retirees may have a little better chance of getting benefits they were promised, but the current workers are getting little more than being allowed to keep some of their jobs. Walter Reuther, the man who built the U.A.W., must be spinning in his grave at the concessions his successors are making.

This may come to be seen as Mr. Obama?s ?Nixon in China? moment. Just as it took a conservative Republican to open relations with the largest Communist country in the world, it took a liberal Democrat to break the U.A.W.

I think the guy is confusing unsecured and secured debt holders there. The unsecured ones need to STFU, because whatever they get with Obama plan is better than the virtually-0-money they get if gov't hadn't propped Chrysler up.

On the other hand, Obama needs to stfu and quit whining about secured debt holders not wanting to take a rip on his 29cent/dollar plan. They stand to get more money back by taking possession of the real estate collateral, otherwise they've would've taken it.