Questions about DVD upconversion to an HDTV

[Ken90630]

Hey, All,

I've been wondering about something for awhile:

Soon I hope to be ready to get my first HDTV (probably a 42" or 46" plasma). I have a lot of DVDs (mainstream movies) that I will of course want to watch on it. How good is upconversion of DVDs, typically, for display on an HDTV of that size? And what is the primary determining factor -- the upconversion quality of the DVD player or the upconversion done by the TV? Are they both capable of doing it and do I just choose one or the other, or how does that work? I don't have a home theater receiver yet and don't know when I'll be able to afford one, so that's not part of the equation right now.

Also, I've seen some DVDs played on HDTVs and they often don't look too great. Is that typical and just something I'll have to live with, or can DVDs be upconverted to a high quality picture with good equipment and proper setup? Obviously I won't expect Blu-Ray quality from an upconverted DVD, but I don't want a dull, grainy picture either.

Over time I hope to replace my DVDs with Blu-Ray discs, but in the meantime I'd like to get the best possible quality out of my DVDs. Any info/education would be much appreciated.

 

[s44]

If you're not sitting very close, you won't notice a difference anyway. Most any player should be good enough at that TV size.

There are two main steps: de-interlacing (480i->480p) and upscaling (480p->1080p). Both TV and player usually have circuitry for both. If the player can output 480i over HDMI (many can't), you can have the TV do both. Otherwise you can have the player do either both (set 1080p output) or just the de-interlacing (set 480p output).

Low-end TVs are usually bad at this sort of thing. Higher-end sets can be good. But you can skip all that and just worry about the player end. That's what most people do.

Most Blu-Ray players will be Good Enough at this. The Oppo models are extremely good, but a giant waste of money for your sort of setup.

 

[IcePickFreak]

Part of it will depend on the source material - aka how well the DVD is in the first place. For newer movies it usually isn't an issue, but some of the older grainy stuff there's only so much that can be done.

Usually for best results you want a player with good upscaling capabilities. TV's can do it too, but unless they really upped it in the last few years, it's just a fallback option. You'll want your DVD player to do the upscaling in pretty much all cases (if the player is really old is probably the only situation you wouldn't.)

As far as quality, if your DVD does good upscaling then a newer good quality DVD can look extremely good. I'd rate second to only Bluray tbh. FWIW I use a ps3 for both bluray and dvd viewing and think it does an exceptional job at upscaling. Many claim the ps3 isn't the best either (I don't know, have no experience with other upscaling DVD players), but that tells me that they should all be pretty good at upscaling.

 

[Ken90630]

Thanks, guys. That helps a lot.

s44, you said, "

Most Blu-Ray players will be Good Enough at this.

Hmmm ... so I guess I will need a Blu-Ray player then also, right? Obviously my standard Yamaha DVD player won't be capable of upscaling to 1080p. But what if I just let the DVD player handle the de-interlacing (if it can) and let the new HDTV do the upscaling? That way I could postpone having to buy a Blu-Ray player. Any flaw in that idea, beyond what IcePickFreak said about it being the less preferable option?

I've got some big medical bills right now and money's tight, so I was hoping to get this going without breaking the bank. I'll postpone it if necessary, since I want to do it right.

BTW, who's making the best plasmas right now in that size? I know Pioneer stopped making the Kuros, so what's the next best thing? Panasonic or Samsung, maybe? (I'm talking mainstream brands here, not high-end esoteric stuff that costs a king's ransom.)

 

[Brainonska511]

I just bought a standard upconverting DVD player to use with my HDTV. Looks great.

 

[IcePickFreak]

Panasonic and Samsung are both worth a look. Panasonic usually has the better blacks and Samsung the better colors. I ended up choosing a Samsung because it also has a more robust settings menu that allows you to adjust more to really dial in the colors, and the blacks are still plenty good to my eye.

Would probably be best to check out AVS Forums for the particular models you're looking at to see if there's any know issues (some Samsungs have a buzz, some Panasonics had a fading black issue, etc.) and just people's general experiences with them. Then get out to a store to compare to see which looks better to you after you have it narrowed down. When I made the purchase about 3-years ago I was leaning towards the Panasonic until I compared both in store and then went with the Samsung.

 

[NoCreativity]

I would just go with the TV for now. If you get it and the picture looks horrible then you can worry about a new DVD/Blue-Ray player.

I ended up using my regular non-upconverting DVD player for a while and DVDs looked fine.

 

[s44]

If you have to worry about spending $65-100 on a new (Blu-Ray) player, there's really no point in asking the question. You'll see what you'll see.

 

[Ken90630]

If you have to worry about spending $65-100 on a new (Blu-Ray) player, there's really no point in asking the question. You'll see what you'll see.

Well, as I said, I've got crushing medical bills right now and money's tight. I'm just trying to do this as well as I can with the money I have to spend. And when I do get a Blu-Ray player, I won't want a bargain basement model from Wal-Mart or the like. I'd rather wait until I can afford to get a better one. But I get your point.

 

[0roo0roo]

Scaling is scaling, even the best scaling won't bring in detail, the only thing you are trying to avoid is horrible scaling. In any case if you have an upscaling player either try its upscaling or the tv's, it isn't that big an issue now. Mostly you see the defects and lack of detail of dvd revealed is all, nothing to be done about that.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2121012&page=7
some screenshot comparisons in this thread... since posted it recently.
6x the resolution... the difference is more glaring in a still of course, but that shows you the scale of difference. dvd is after all about a third of a megapixel worth of picture. yes.. 1/3 of a megapixel! you cant shine a turd.

if your dvd player is analog output, well see if it is acceptable, if not, get upscaling player..in theory since it is scaling the digital image earlier whereas the tv would have to sample an analog image...it should be better.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Your current dvd player is fine. Let it output 480i, or 480p, or whatever it likes, as long as it is using HDMI or component cables you should get (roughly) the full quality of what is on your dvds.

Do some research about setup and output options to make sure you are getting the best quality for the equipment you have. When your budget allows an upgraded player, take upscaling into consideration. FTR, I've found upscaling players to have minimal benefit, but my TV does a good job of scaling.

 

[Joseph Dubin]

I had the same question myself. My only real luxury is owning a Sony KD34XBR960, a 34 inch HD CRT which is still regarded as one of the top sets around. It also has an excellent line-doubler, for it's amazing how well low-quality VHS recordings even look on it (considering it's lack of resolution).

So I wasn't sure if an up-converting player would be better or worse than relying on the Sony. Got mixed responses on AVS Forum from other owners. But last winter my Panasonic DVD recorder died on me so I replaced it with a newer Panny that had up-conversion via HDMI built in. Yes, I saw a difference in picture quality, especially helpful with the DVD-Rs I dubbed off stations like Turner Classic Movies, HBO, etc.

So I would go with an up-converting player. Would stay away from Sony models because in order to play back letterbox material (i.e., on DVD-Rs or non-amaphoric) one needs to use the zoom and for some reason the zoom icon remains on and you can't get rid of it. Also, the up-conversion didn't seem as good as the Panasonic we have in our living room.

Either way, because you're on a tight budget, a good Panasonic or Samsung up-converting player should cost about $60, still almost half the price of an entry level bluray player.

 

[s44]

Either way, because you're on a tight budget, a good Panasonic or Samsung up-converting player should cost about $60, still almost half the price of an entry level bluray player.

Sears and Wal-Mart sold the LG BD530 this month for under $70. Similar deals should continue through Christmas.

*Not* getting Blu is a waste.

 

[Joseph Dubin]

Sears and Wal-Mart sold the LG BD530 this month for under $70. Similar deals should continue through Christmas.

*Not* getting Blu is a waste.

Not a big fan of LG and then I wonder how much less a DVD player from Panasonic and others might be. I also recall reading from various sources that many of the less expensive bluray players don't up-convert as well as DVD players due to the type of laser system. Is this true?

 

[3chordcharlie]

Not a big fan of LG and then I wonder how much less a DVD player from Panasonic and others might be. I also recall reading from various sources that many of the less expensive bluray players don't up-convert as well as DVD players due to the type of laser system. Is this true?

Two years ago, what you're saying kind of made sense; any name-brand bluray player cost $100-200 MORE than a decent DVD player. That's just not true anymore. Decent bluray players cost $100-200 total, or even less.

At this point, DVD is becoming a legacy format, albeit one with a lot of media in the wild that doesn't really degrade like tapes do. For oncethough, there's no need to fret about it, because any bluray player you buy is going to do a thoroughly decent job of playing your DVDs. The prices have come down to the point that I just can't see the value in purchasing something that isn't a bluray player today.

 

[0roo0roo]

yea just wait if you can't afford.
there is no point buying an upscaling dvd player for close to a bluray player price at this point.

 

[Joseph Dubin]

Two years ago, what you're saying kind of made sense; any name-brand bluray player cost $100-200 MORE than a decent DVD player. That's just not true anymore. Decent bluray players cost $100-200 total, or even less.

At this point, DVD is becoming a legacy format, albeit one with a lot of media in the wild that doesn't really degrade like tapes do. For oncethough, there's no need to fret about it, because any bluray player you buy is going to do a thoroughly decent job of playing your DVDs. The prices have come down to the point that I just can't see the value in purchasing something that isn't a bluray player today.

Wouldn't be a matter of cost so much since they are all becoming quite inexpensive, was just concerned about things I've seen posted about many of the less expensive bluray players not up-converting as well as the more expensive ones and regular DVD players. :hmm:

 

[3chordcharlie]

Wouldn't be a matter of cost so much since they are all becoming quite inexpensive, was just concerned about things I've seen posted about many of the less expensive bluray players not up-converting as well as the more expensive ones and regular DVD players. :hmm:

I'm sure the main design focus of a budget bluray player is not 'best possible DVD upconversion'. They do a fine job though.

Just watch a couple of good bluray releases, and you'll stop worrying whether a different player could make your old 'soft-fuzzy-moving-light discs' a little less fuzzy

 

[Joseph Dubin]

I'm sure the main design focus of a budget bluray player is not 'best possible DVD upconversion'. They do a fine job though.

Just watch a couple of good bluray releases, and you'll stop worrying whether a different player could make your old 'soft-fuzzy-moving-light discs' a little less fuzzy

Thanks for the info. Might not have mentioned that I have just a 34 inch (Sony KD34XBR960 - CRT) in our main HT system and a 32 inch Samsung LCD in our den so the size of the screen has to be considered in the equation as well. Might be why the up-conversion looks so sharp and vibrant but am sure the same discs on a much larger screen would bring out the limitations more.

 

[Joseph Dubin]

Another interesting thing I've noticed. DVD-R recordings I've made and watch up-converted play back beautifully on our Sony CRT in the living room but are awful when up-converted on the LCD in our den (distorted color, graininess, etc.). Played back at 480p and the picture is fine. Could it be due to the differences in CRT and LCD technology?

 

[sdifox]

Another interesting thing I've noticed. DVD-R recordings I've made and watch up-converted play back beautifully on our Sony CRT in the living room but are awful when up-converted on the LCD in our den (distorted color, graininess, etc.). Played back at 480p and the picture is fine. Could it be due to the differences in CRT and LCD technology?

Really depends on where the scaling is being done. Chances are the scaler on the CRT is better than the scaler on the LCD.

 

[0roo0roo]

Its a crt, it doesn't need to scale. Furthermore its a 1000+ dollar high end in its day crt fine pitch tv vs a probably pos 32" lcd.

 

[Joseph Dubin]

Its a crt, it doesn't need to scale. Furthermore its a 1000+ dollar high end in its day crt fine pitch tv vs a probably pos 32" lcd.

Yes, that Sony Super Fine Pitch picture tube is great and another reason why I thought I might have an advantage with up-conversion. Which also means I might have something to worry about if the set suddenly goes on me in regards to up-conversion picture quality .:hmm:

 

[sdifox]

Its a crt, it doesn't need to scale. Furthermore its a 1000+ dollar high end in its day crt fine pitch tv vs a probably pos 32" lcd.

ok, line doubler then.

 

[cubby1223]

This thread is probably long over... but... most stores are bundling Blu-ray players for little or no cost with new tvs, so...