Questions about a Media PC

[Teclis2323]

Hey Varun,

I definitely will spring for the Microsoft Remote - it's cheap on New Egg.

So, I hate to be obnoxious, but can I run a potential system by you? Just internals...

Athlon 65 3500+ Venice Core (S939)
Asus A8N Premium Main Board SLI
OCZ 2GB DDR400
250GB Western Digital Caviar 3.0gb/sec SATA
Geforce 7300GS


Any ideas for silent cooling for the proc?
I'm still deciding on the case and other components, and all thoughts are welcome! Thanks

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: Teclis2323
Hey Varun,

I definitely will spring for the Microsoft Remote - it's cheap on New Egg.

So, I hate to be obnoxious, but can I run a potential system by you? Just internals...

Athlon 65 3500+ Venice Core (S939)
Asus A8N Premium Main Board SLI
OCZ 2GB DDR400
250GB Western Digital Caviar 3.0gb/sec SATA
Geforce 7300GS


Any ideas for silent cooling for the proc?
I'm still deciding on the case and other components, and all thoughts are welcome! Thanks

Change the RAM to Crucial, Corsair, or Mushkin, the rest looks good :thumbsup:.

Silent cooling; the Zalman CNPS-8000 would be my recommendation for a low-profile HT case.

For the PSU the best option is the Seasonic S12, one of Zalman's new models (w/ 120mm fan) would be a good alternative.

 

[Varun]

I have a couple ideas you can think about.

Any time someone wants a 250GB or less size drive I have to recommend the Samsung P120s. With AAM enabled they are basically inaudible, and their heat output is excellent.

ATI motherboard - far far less heat output than the Nforce 4. You get passive cooling standard without a big heatpipe cooler since the TDP of the chipset is so low. You don't need SLI for a HTPC, so basically you are paying a lot extra just to have the passive cooler on the A8N Premium.

With the price difference in motherboards over the A8N Premium you could upgrade to a 3800+ (especially if this price drop hits as soon as people say it will)

I also like the Zalman 8000 for a small case like any HTPC case would be. I would love to stick a 9500 in one of those but they just don't have the room.

I still like the look of my Thermaltake Tenor case, even though the case does have some drawbacks (All HTPC cases seem to have some flaws over the much roomier mid towers).

The Seasonic S12 is the only PSU I recommend right now since they are not only the quietest ones, but one of the highest quality PSUs.

Your choice in video card should be plenty for a HTPC, and has everything you need (DVI and HD TV out)

I've only had my HTPC a couple of months, and I had a million questions when I started building mine. Feel free to ask anything!

 

[Teclis2323]

Hey guys,

awesome advice. Operandi, may I ask - why not OCZ ram? Is it just not as high quality as Mushkin or Corsair? I'll stick with those on your insistance. So another question - is 2GB ram necessary? Or do you think going with 1GB or 1.5GB would be okay?

Also, any ideas about TV tuners? I want quality. Also, with a HTPC, can you watch cable basically real-time, or is there a serious delay?

I will definitely check out the ATI northbridge - less heat sounds great to me!

 

[Varun]

For a TV Tuner there are two camps.

Haupage cards are loved for anyone that wants Linux.

ATI Theater 550 Pro is likely the best hardware tuner out there. I have two MSI cards based on it and they picture quality is awesome. The 650 is apparently coming out right away but the 550 is no slouch. ATI sells their version which comes with a better remote, but MSI and Saphire sell cards that are cheaper (with a worse remote of course).

There is always a delay with hardware TV Tuners, but it's maybe a couple of seconds at most. They DO NOT work with consoles though - hook those right up to the TV.

 

[Teclis2323]

Cool - looks like I'll take a look into the ATI Theater Pro. Although, is there a reason that I shouldn't get the All-In-Wonder? It was mentioned above, but I'm just wondering about all of the cool goodies that it might provide.

thanks guys

 

[Teclis2323]

Any ideas about brands for the Theater Pro? I'm looking at...VisionTek, MSI, Sapphire. Any that stand out as phenomenal?

Also, can I use the MCE remote to control the tuner?

 

[Teclis2323]

Okay, even more questions - what about the sound output. We're going to be hooking it up to a YAMAHA surround sound system, and I think the majority of the inputs are RCA (although there might also be digital). Can I used the onboard sound, or should I spring for a certain type of sound card? If so, which ones do you recommend?

 

[Varun]

I have MSI tuners and they are great. I'm sure the others are just as good since the main hardware is all the same. If one is a bit cheaper than the others maybe go with it.

There are a couple reasons to not get an All in Wonder. First, any time you combine two components, if you for whatever reason decide to replace one of them (say you want an HDMI video card later) you are stuck paying for both again. Second, the latest All in Wonder cards may have the Theater 550 (you would have to look into this) but the older ones have inferior tuners to the 550. A final bonus is that Media Center can control multiple tuners, but they are supposed to be the same. You can always throw another PCI card in if you decide you do want dual tuners.

Dual tuners may seem like something you don't need or want, but I only lived about a week before I realised that dual tuners were needed. I bought another MSI card literally within a week of building my HTPC.

As for the remote, the remote does not control the tuners, Media Center controls the tuners, and the remote controls Media Center, so yes I guess it does control the tuner.

 

[Teclis2323]

Thanks again! I'll take a look at those tuners. Right now, I've got my system in the "under 1000" range, and it seems to be working out really well.

 

[Raduque]

Hey, just had to jump in here, I love media PC/HTPC threads.

I noticed you asked about lag in an HTPC. If you're using a hardware tuner card (and you have to, for MCE), there's around a little less then half a second of delay in the signal as the card encodes it. If you're using a software card, it's 100% realtime with absolutely no delay.

On soundcards: unless you're going to be gaming, any basic cheap soundcard, even the onboard, will be fine as long as you're using the digital connection (TOSLINK optical or S/PDIF coaxial) because your reciever will handle the task of decoding the data signal. For DVDs, the soundcard will simply pass an unaltered DD or DTS signal to the reciever, and for other media (MP3s, divx, mpeg, etc) it'll pass a PCM 2 channel signal which your reciever may upsample to Pro Logic II. If you're interested in gaming, using WMVPro or getting true-ish surround out of non-DVD media, you'll need an Azuntech card such as the X-Plosion or X-Mystique. Both those cards take any audio signal and encode them to DD or DTS on the fly for true digital surround sound from any source over a digital connection.

If you're going to be using analog (6 RCA cables), get the highest quality soundcard you can afford. Most people reccomend a Creative X-Fi.

For the record, I run my HTPC in a painted tower case using quiet 92mm fans. It takes up the bottom shelf area of my AV rack, but it dissapears in the dark when I watch a movie.

 

[Teclis2323]

Hey Raduque, thanks for the advice about sound! I'm pretty inexperienced with these sorts of things.

edit: I'm looking at the M-Audio 9900-40767-00. It's got RCA out, I think. But I know the surround system we're using does take digital in. Do motherboards provide digital out?

 

[Teclis2323]

Let's talk TVs for a second, guys. I've been looking at some HDTVs (both plasma and rear-projection) and I'm wondering, does anyone have any particular favorites? Because I was looking at a store, I couldn't see exactly which inputs they had, but for 1599 there was a 50" rear projection (HD) with a built in stand. I'm thinking that sounds like a great plan, since 50" is awesome, and I could put the mediapc and the xbox right in there. What I'm wondering is, do you need DVI inputs to make it worth it? or could analog inputs be worth it? I'm thinking that VGA/DVI input makes it worth it, while analog simpyl wouldn't. Am I wrong?

 

[Raduque]

A question for you on the M-Audio card: Why'd you chose it? I can't seem to find any info on it on google, only endless links to purchase it. Newegg even has contradictory info, as the specs say it only has analog outs, but a user review says it has S/PDIF. As for mobos, some do some don't. My current mobo (an OEM Asus board out of a Compaq a64 machine) has it, as did my nForce2 mobo. As I said before it depends on what you're doing with your HTPC, audio wise. Question for you: What exactly do you want out of the audio side of things? Answer that, and I can better help you pick the right soundcard for you. =)


As for TVs, I personally think DVI and VGA are worth spending extra for, although lots of people have success using an HTPC on Component connections. It really depends. You usually have to do a little fiddling with component, but VGA and DVI can be "pixel mapped 1:1", which means your PC will send a signal and the TV will display it somewhat like an LCD monitor will. On all connections though, you may need to compensate for overscan, which means that part of your picture will be offscreen, and you'll need to use your vidcards drivers to bring it completely within the boundries of the display.

One more thing to be wary of, on an analog connection, you may have problems playing back DVDs fullscreen due to Macrovision, but I personally have never run across this problem.

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: Teclis2323
Hey Raduque, thanks for the advice about sound! I'm pretty inexperienced with these sorts of things.

edit: I'm looking at the M-Audio 9900-40767-00. It's got RCA out, I think. But I know the surround system we're using does take digital in. Do motherboards provide digital out?

Most mid to high-end boards have digital out so that shouldn't be a problem. HD audio is also becoming standard now for both Intel and AMD chipsets so odds are even the analog outs will be very good. If you are still going with the A8N Premium it dose have both optical and coaxial digital outputs but still uses an AC97 codec for analog.

Not to confuse you any further but for socket 939 I think the ASUS A8R32-MVP Deluxe is a better choice due to is integrated HD audio, lower power consumption, and dual 16x PCIe slots.

 

[Teclis2323]

Hey guys,

as always, wonderful suggestions! I am definitely going with the ATI northbridge that you suggested, Operandi. Hey Rad - I've decided against that audio card. I'll simply use the digital audio out from the motherboard - I've found that the surround sound system that we'll be using does, in fact, have digital audio in. Under the digital audio, it has a coaxial in and also a squarish-black connector in. So I'll just use whichever one is supported.

So I am still wondering, is 1GB RAM enough for tv-tuning and such, or should I go for 2GB? Would I notice a huge difference?

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: Teclis2323
Hey guys,

as always, wonderful suggestions! I am definitely going with the ATI northbridge that you suggested, Operandi. Hey Rad - I've decided against that audio card. I'll simply use the digital audio out from the motherboard - I've found that the surround sound system that we'll be using does, in fact, have digital audio in. Under the digital audio, it has a coaxial in and also a squarish-black connector in. So I'll just use whichever one is supported.

So I am still wondering, is 1GB RAM enough for tv-tuning and such, or should I go for 2GB? Would I notice a huge difference?

2GB would only be useful for real time recording and time shifting, and even 1GB might be plenty.

 

[Teclis2323]

Okay, I think that "Squarish Black connector" is "optical digital". Am I right? If so, is there a difference in sound quality between coaxial digital out and optical digital out?

 

[Varun]

Originally posted by: Teclis2323
Okay, I think that "Squarish Black connector" is "optical digital". Am I right? If so, is there a difference in sound quality between coaxial digital out and optical digital out?

You are right and there is no difference

 

[winterlude]

Teclis,
Just wondering if you'll be using a HD source. Also, FYI, my 1.7 ghz Pentium M with Intel graphics plays 1080p HD signals encoded in wmv9 flawlessly (the samples from Microsoft Showcase but played on BSPlayer, NOT Windows Media Player), so whatever processor you get will likely be enough for all kinds of playback. ATI AIW are great if you don't think you'll be upgrading the system (i.e. treat the system you build like an electronic component) since AIW give you video/component/composite etc. out as well as a TV tuner, remote, all kinds of software, and a good-enough gaming card.
The HDMI 1.3 standard is official now, so video cards and monitors will be implementing it quite widespread in the near future which may be the death knell for DVI... just something to consider.
Also, a great case/powersupply to consider is the Antec Phantom, which is completely fanless http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=24500
Anyway, the more research you do and the more imput you have from the knowledgeable people here, the more informed a decision you can make. Me, I'm a cheapskate, so I try to get the most bang for my buck out of one systems and try to do everything with it. I rarely buy high end stuff, but shop for value. I find it ironic how some people buy high end parts with the intention of upgrading later, but will most likely need a new motherboard in a year to take full advantage of the latest innovation. If that makes them happy, great. They are hardware hobbyists and enthusiasts with lots of extra cash. Fantastic. I don't have a lot of disposable income, so I have to spend my cash carefully.
I understand that you are building an HTPC, but have you even considered whether or not your existing system, with a little tweaking, can do what you need, or instead of a "best I can get for $1000.00" --which is as valid an approach to shopping as any--considered cheapest/best value system I can get that can do A, B and C?
...No matter what you buy now, there'll be budget systems in five years that will smoke it. So consider buying only what you need.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Varun]

I wouldn't recommend a fanless PSU for a low airflow case like a HTPC.

 

[Teclis2323]

Hey there winterlude. Well, I definitely thought about the idea of just using my current system, and it's something that I've continued to think about; however, there are a few drawbacks. I am buying frugally (once I have the money, of course!) is that I sort of want this to simply be "building a component" like mentioned above. I don't particularly plan to upgrade this beast, since the only upgrade I can imagine is adding a second hard drive for more storage room. The primary drawback is, of course, that I also want to have a computer to use personally. Since I would be sharing the HTPC with my girlfriend and using it basically as a TiVo/DVD/Media Center, I wouldn't be able to do much gaming on it, nor would I really be able to spend much time writing reports and stuff like that. I like the idea of surfing the web on a 50" tv, of course; however, I also like the idea of being able to just chill on my own computer.

The second drawback is the hardware. It's a bit dated (simple IDE, not SATA) and is quite loud. I'm' probably going to replace its case no matter what, but everyone insists that silence is a big part of a media PC, so I'm working for that.

That being said, I have definitely (and am still doing so) considered using my current system as an HTPC and then building a cool gaming rig for myself. I don't play too many games, and considering that I can buy XBOX games for 6 bucks at EB Games, it makes it hard to justify spending a crap load of money on PC equipment, ya know? I would love to hear an argument to build an awesome gaming PC, of course. Any takers?

 

[winterlude]

I agree that in a perfect world, all PC?s would be silent. But noise bothers some people more than others. Why not put your current PC where you would place your HTPC for a couple of days and see if you get used to the noise or if it is too irritating to bear. I?ve got a system that is basically a HTPC, and it?s not quite. In fact, I had to put two more fans in the case for my Athlon XP 1800+ just to boot when I bought it. Yes, it?s noisy, but I comprimise?I use the ear canal earphones that came with my Sandisk Sansa MP3 player to cancel external sound when I?m by myself, and turn the volume up a little louder when the whole family is watching a movie. When several people are talking, it?s a lot more distracting than the hum of the computer case anyway, so I would have to raise the volume of my receiver regardless. My ?other? HTPC is my laptop which I use in combination with my Infocus X1 projector. Laptops are definitely a quite (but not cheap) alternative. There are lots of TV via USB 2 options available these days too. With the stringent video requirements for Windows Vista, I would expect the coming generation of laptops with dual core processors to be adequate gaming machines. The $6 games you mentioned are probably a couple of years old and therefore are not as likely to be demanding on systems. Some people have to play at high res, but I played Doom3, Halflife 2, Warcraft 3 etc. flawlessly on my Althon XP 1800 +9600 ATI AIW combo, albiet fewer bells and whistles (e.g. anti aliasing, high res etc.) I still was fully emersed in the games and enjoyed them.
My Athlon is a pretty hot processor. It can?t even overclock 5% without freezing, but I donated to a software called CPUIdle which let?s my CPU basically gear down like a Pentium M does when I?m not doing something demanding. I leave my Athlon system on 24/7 since it?s the server for my other four systems. (I?m in my mid 30s, so I?ve accumulated a lot of computer systems over the years that I still try to find used for. My six year old daughter uses one running Windows 3.1 just for the paint and word processing programs).

So what are the specs for your current system? Why not download some HD samples from windows showcase to see if you system can handle them? If not playing back HD, you?re system is probably fine. Maybe all you need is a VIVO card?
I admit that I?ve never used MCE, but I don?t see why I would need to. There is lots of free software for playing back all kinds of video, codecs are free to download, and Windows Media player comes with ever windows anyway for managing audio and video. Maybe all you need is connectivity between your PC and TV. From what I can tell, that?s basically what MCE is, plus a remote. An AIW card takes care of all that. Nvidia and other companies have similar solutions too. Research, research, research and you?ll make an informed decision.
In terms of building a budget gaming rig, find out the recommended specs for an upcoming game that you?re dying to play and aim for that. Beyond that is just guessing which usually equates to ?spending too much now?. Let early adopters of technology with fat wallets buy the cutting edge components so they can bring the price down for those of us more budget conscious people. I?ve been buying/using systems since the Commodore Vic 20, and if there?s one thing I know for sure, computers and accessories will always get cheaper/faster/more/better.

In short, my recommendation is to use your existing system (for now) as your HTPC (if the noise doesn't drive you crazy) with minimum investment in the upgrade, and build your budget gamer with the cash you would have spent on a machine that you may not even use much one you built it (since it would have been a dedicated HTPC.

 

[winterlude]

One last thing...
As far as budgeting for TV?s are concerned, there are two camps: Camp 1 wants the clearest, best picture for the money and camp 2 wants the biggest picture for the money. Some rear and front projectors are quite good, but they will always look less detailed than a direct view set. Here is a recommendation for a clear, sharp, gaming LCD TV from Samsung: http://www.plasmabay.com/plasma/product.asp?ref=BizRate&sku=LNS3251D

Note that it is ?only? 32?, but also can be had for less than $1200 US. However, to be fair, as I?ve said, I already have a large screen (my projector) and could use a small, sharp screen for myself. I don?t own the Samsung, but am saving for it. I will be saving a long time, but that?s okay: a better one my come out when I?m ready to buy which means I can buy the better new improved one, or get the one I?m recommending for bargain basement prices because it?s being phased out. The only thing I lose is the enjoyment I would have had, had I bought the TV sooner. But at this point, it is a luxury item, not a necessity for me, so getting it is a lower priority than, say, paying my utilities or buying groceries etc.

 

[Teclis2323]

Hey Winterlude,

Definitely some great points there. I don't know when I would be building the mediaPC, but it wouldn't be before a few months, anyways. I am so torn with what to do, since honestly I don't game that much anymore, and my current computer already plays my games of choice quite well. That being said, I will probably wait until dual-core processors are dirt cheap and throw together a 1500 dollar system when I can afford it, as I'm sure there will be better games around. My current system is:

Athlon XP 2400+
1.5GB DDR2700
Gigabyte 7n400-L motherboard (gives me problems, unfortunately)
Geforce FX 5900XT
Soundblaster Audigy Card
a few hard drives, etc.

It works well for gaming, although I admit, the games I play most are: Guild Wars, Warhammer Dawn of War and a few others. Very few tax my machine at the moment, so I was thinking I should just hold out until I absolutely need a new rig. The games I want to play are Hitman Blood Money, the upcoming Warhammer MMO (2007 ETA) and probably a few more... I'm not a huge gamer, you see. Although playing Guild Wars on a HUGE TV would be nice.

So, this is going to sound lame to all of you videophiles out there, but here goes. My girlfriend and I saw a rear-projection 50" HDTV with a built in stand for $1599 at BJ's the other day. I know, I can hear you all groaning about BJs! But the thing is, these places never put a HDef input in, so I couldn't TRULY tell the picture quality. Do all HDTVs automatically have D-Sub or DVI inputs? Or am I just under the wrong impression? I figured HD meant that it had to have DSUB or DVI input.

And one more thing, but what were you saying is going to phase out DVI? I know so little, but I'm learning every day.