Question!

[RayTheKing]

Oh god, the mod's gonna come again ._.

 

[Nec_V20]

Come on, I haven't given anyone a wedgie yet :whiste:

 

[Torn Mind]

Are you a techie or do you sell cars for a living?

I have to ask because you diss me in the first paragraph, then draw a line under it and then reiterate everything I have said with regard to bad PSUs in the following text.

I don't mind you being a plagiarist, I do however mind you being a twat about it.

Is it jealousy because of the fact that I can articulate myself better in my second language (English) than you can in your first (and only) barely?

Let me sum it up for you sonny. Quality (and therefore more reliable) PSUs have narrower tolerances coupled with greater bandwidth, achieved through superior craftsmanship - or as we Germans call it, "Vorsprung durch Technik"

Your post is another one that can be summed up with the phrase, "You deprive me of solitude whilst affording no companionship whatsoever".

The statement I made is that you are a sophist. The key attribute of being a sophist is that you put forth good-sounding arguments that are actually fallacious, and usually deliberate intent. Perhaps it is a bit excessive to imply you deliberately want to deceive people. However, it is easy to show beyond a reasonable doubt you do put forth specious arguments regardless of your intent .
Whether I sell cars or am techie has no relevance to that, nor whether if I am a plagarist or not. Jealousy also cannot prove or disprove that. All of these questions are an example of the ad hominem fallacy. I can say I'm a car salesman, that won't make any difference on whether you made a specious argument. Showing that an your reasoning is fallacious done by analyzing what you wrote, not the attributes of another person.

Of course, I will answer these questions you asked in a separate post and perhaps a few days from now because it is still baseless character assassination and not merely pointing out an actual, supportable negative attribute somebody has.

The point of this thread was to evaluate a particular member of the CX series of PSUs. This is just to keep in perspective the context of this thread.

Most power supplies when they reach the top end of their power draw also tend to have increased ripple in the voltage. Excessive ripple can result in everything from a device performing erratically to BSODs to a device being damaged.

ESPECIALLY if you are thinking of overclocking then you have to have a PSU that supplies clean voltages otherwise you are cruising for a bruising.

Another thing is that Haswell needs a power supply which is designed with your CPU in mind.

There are two examples of you posting a general statement yet not tying it specifically to the PSU at hand is with the statement "increase in ripple current when the PSU is pushed near its maximum wattage draw". I have to suppose you are leaving it up to the reader to make an inference about the specific PSU at hand. Most likely, the reader will infer that the specific PSU(in this case, the CX600) also behaves that way. The inference is ultimately false, and if no one else but you were advising the reader, the reader would accept this FALSE inference as FACT.
If you had been paying attention, the CX series has good ripple control for at its max wattage draw. Hence, if you implicitly trying to assert a CX series PSU has poor ripple control, it would be false. Your general statement does not apply to this PSU. In addition, the actual power draw the CX600 would be experiencing would be approximately 1/2 to 2/3rds of the max power draw. Hence, the hypothetical case does not correspond with the actual case.

The statement in which some PSUs don't support Haswell's C6/C7 states is true. But the relevant matter is which ones aren't and is the particular one discussed in this thread not compatible. You did not do a follow up and post information either confirming or denying what is the actual case. Thus, reader will play the probabilities and assume that the CX600 does not support the Haswell CPUs.
There is nothing confirming outright that it is compatible, but if one were to play the probabilities, it would be likely it is, since its 750W cousin is validated to be Haswell compatible. Even if it wasn't, it would be a non-issue as those C-states will come disabled in BIOS.

Even the joke about paying to have sex with a prostitute has one flaw. Before I point it out, yes not paying a prostitute means no sex. But paying $1,000,000 does not guarantee a good sexual experience because some folks are not as good at having sex or the two partners do not have good compatibility. One of your assertions is that paying more gets you more. The joke does not do a good job of supporting it.

Your definition of quality in previous posts is very vague, and you don't go into major details about what determines superior quality over another. Price can determine quality, but only to a limited extent.

Once again, your definition of quality used is generally true. But for PSUs, lower "bandwidth" is not an indicator of reliability. Maximum allowed current for a particular voltage in the system is not going to kill the PSU prematurely unless the user gets the computer to pull more amperes than the component responsible for outputting current can handle. Stay in spec, and those components will last indefinitely. I do agree that craftsmanship and lower tolerances are important elements of making a part superior in a particular attribute(s).


You never actually defined what characteristics of a PSU distinguishes one level of quality from another. Not a single mention of any actual technical data regarding the AX860 was used in your attempt to justify its superiority over another unit even though it is readily available. Instead, you statements give the distinct impression that price seems to be the dominant indicator of quality. Or, if not price, then making a general statement that does not specifically refer to the


Plagiarist? Provide a direct example. A plagiarist copies someone else's stuff completely. That means you should be able to find identical content in my posts in yours. The few things that could be considered "copied" are concepts that are common knowledge and came to my attention independently from any interaction with you. Indeed, most of your statements are quite general and do not go into the specifics like I have.

There are also statements that you never made. For example, the statement that a PSU will fail eventually is not in any of your posts or that PSUs are on electronic devices such as TVs and such. And you did not mention one iota about poor solder jobs causing failures. Perhaps you knew but you forgot that you never posted that information(you knew but didn't say). Or it could be that those things never came to you mind in the first place(you didn't know in the first place).

Also, common knowledge is not plagiarism. Everyone knows Barack Obama is the President of the United States. One cannot plagiarize that factual statement because everybody knows it. The concepts of noise and ripple are common knowledge and hence people can learn the concepts independently. In fact, I doubt you were the original discoverer of noise and ripple, so it stands to reason that your knowledge of the concepts was transmitted to you by someone else. It is beyond easy to go to Wikipedia to learn about noise and ripple. In fact, the site in which I was exposed to the terms noise and ripple was at Hardware Secrets. It was about a year ago when I was researching components for my first build.




An example of you use of using just plain wrong information is describe in the following paragraph. At the most basic level, you used the units for density instead of energy in trying to describe heat transfer.
It was in another thread in this subforum. You made a little statement about warm air rising and somehow that air makes the top of the PSU too hot. Never mind that when discussing heat, the proper framework in analyzing heat transfer is to use the principles of thermodynamics. The basic technical explanation for warm air rising is that hot air is less dense than cold air. In other words, there is less mass per unit of volume. This is due to the molecules being further apart from each other. What you did not comprehend, is that the energy that air has will inevitably be transferred to somewhere. HEAT energy, is measured in JOULES or or its derivatives.

 

[Torn Mind]

Oh god, the mod's gonna come again ._.

I'm not a passionate debater, but I understand the "rules of engagement". Discuss the message, not the messenger. And of course, I must put forth some sort of rational argument and avoid errors in reasoning, of which attacking the messenger is one of them.

 

[lehtv]

And you misunderstand me. As a techie I live by the code, "Never touch a running system", and buying quality is the best way of assuring that I can abide by that code. Put it this way, after 30 years of being a computer techie I have kissed enough frogs to know better.


I am simply going by what the OP posted and that is the scenario I was and am replying to.

Which part of and what I wrote are contradictory?



Duh!

1) You say it like it is a bad thing

2) You say it like better should be cheaper?

I think you would be revising your "maybe a few bucks a year" quip if you lived in Hawaii - is that still a part of the USA or have the Republicans ceded that to Kenya?

None of what you're saying here makes any sense so I'm just going to stop replying to you. You're trying so hard to interpret my posts in a manner that allows you to show you're right and I'm wrong, it's almost amusing.

 

[Nec_V20]

None of what you're saying here makes any sense so I'm just going to stop replying to you. You're trying so hard to interpret my posts in a manner that allows you to show you're right and I'm wrong, it's almost amusing.

I can't interpret anything other than that which you have written. A lot of what you write appears to me to be passive-aggressive negativism. such as the post I am just quoting.

 

[Nec_V20]

The statement I made is that you are a sophist. The key attribute of being a sophist is that you put forth good-sounding arguments that are actually fallacious, and usually deliberate intent.

That was your first mistake. I am autistic (Asperger's) but you seem to suffer from paranoid delusional fantasies.

You are accusing me of posting here in bad faith, what possible reason could I have for doing that? I don't go out of my way to crawl up other people's backsides and assmosis is the number one way to get ahead in the US (it certainly isn't competence from my experience of Corporate America).

As opposed to you, I do have a degree in Psychology from Bonn University (though I have never worked in the field - I fell in love with computers at university and continued on with that after I finished my degree) so I think I would be more qualified to make statements concerning someone else's state of mind.

The thing is that, as opposed to you, I don't attribute bad motives to people I encounter as a default. I will give every dog a chance to bite, but one bite is all they get.

Whether I sell cars or am techie has no relevance to that, nor whether if I am a plagarist or not. Jealousy also cannot prove or disprove that. All of these questions are an example of the ad hominem fallacy. I can say I'm a car salesman, that won't make any difference on whether you made a specious argument. Showing that an your reasoning is fallacious done by analyzing what you wrote, not the attributes of another person.

If I recall correctly it was you who originally made and are still making an ad hominem attack upon me. My experience with PSUs since I moved to the UK in 1998 has been pretty bad. I don't buy cheap ones either; however I had six of them die on me - some more spectacularly than others - within the space of eleven years (1998-2009).

In 2009 (after the sixth PSU had shed its mortal coil - couldn't resist the pun) I got sick of it and decided I would get the best PSU I could irregardless of the cost. I bought a Corsair AX850 and have not had a problem since.

Thus my arguments are not based on any recto-cranial aberration but rather on hard personal experience.

There are two examples of you posting a general statement yet not tying it specifically to the PSU at hand is with the statement "increase in ripple current when the PSU is pushed near its maximum wattage draw". I have to suppose you are leaving it up to the reader to make an inference about the specific PSU at hand. Most likely, the reader will infer that the specific PSU(in this case, the CX600) also behaves that way. The inference is ultimately false, and if no one else but you were advising the reader, the reader would accept this FALSE inference as FACT.

You are correct that my posts are both general and with some points specific to the CX600. I might not have done a good job of separating those two threads within my posts and that is my fault.

Many PSUs sold on the market are are so bad they should be be the cause of lawsuits and not reviews. There was one called the Thortech Thunderbolt Plus 1200W which when two of them were bought retail and not sent by the company to a reviewer ended up that when it was only delivering about 1,000 Watt both of them had a ripple of around 300mV on the 12V rail (the one sent by the company for another review only had 68.4mV ripple on the 12Vrail). This value far exceed what can be considered safe (120mV) and the bottom line is that this PSU will cause the death of components in the system it is powering. At over $300 this piece of excrement isn't even cheap!

Here is something that happened to a person with the CX600:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj8-wNmYJvM

The marketdroids rate the CX600 for continuous use - which it obviously isn't being rated for full power at only 30 degrees Celsius. It is marketed as a 600W PSU - which it isn't, reaching the peak efficiency at just under 250 Watt.

These kind of things annoy me. If you are buying a cheap PSU manufactured by Seasonic then there is a reason why it is cheap - it is called "cost down". Don't think you can use this for extended gaming sessions (mine can last as long as 16 hours when I get going) with your system drawing high loads from it for very long.

If you had been paying attention, the CX series has good ripple control for at its max wattage draw. Hence, if you implicitly trying to assert a CX series PSU has poor ripple control, it would be false. Your general statement does not apply to this PSU. In addition, the actual power draw the CX600 would be experiencing would be approximately 1/2 to 2/3rds of the max power draw. Hence, the hypothetical case does not correspond with the actual case.

The statement in which some PSUs don't support Haswell's C6/C7 states is true. But the relevant matter is which ones aren't and is the particular one discussed in this thread not compatible. You did not do a follow up and post information either confirming or denying what is the actual case. Thus, reader will play the probabilities and assume that the CX600 does not support the Haswell CPUs.
There is nothing confirming outright that it is compatible, but if one were to play the probabilities, it would be likely it is, since its 750W cousin is validated to be Haswell compatible. Even if it wasn't, it would be a non-issue as those C-states will come disabled in BIOS.

The CX600 does not support the Haswell C6/C7 states. I actually - if you look back - did post that I had checked and that it did not. Personally the C6/C7 states are a good thing because my systems run 24/7. The CX750 is certified for Haswell.

When I was talking about ripple control I was speaking of PSUs in general and not specifically about the CX600.

In some cases I will admit to not being as clear as I should have been with regard to differentiating between the CX600 in particular and my criticisms of PSUs in general; however your suggestion that I did this either systematically, deliberately or with malicious intent to deceive is bloody-minded tosh.

Whether I sell cars or am techie has no relevance to that, nor whether if I am a plagarist or not. Jealousy also cannot prove or disprove that. All of these questions are an example of the ad hominem fallacy. I can say I'm a car salesman, that won't make any difference on whether you made a specious argument. Showing that an your reasoning is fallacious done by analyzing what you wrote, not the attributes of another person.

With regard to selling cars I have noticed that salescritters live in a value free world and spend most of their time polishing turds. In my time as Senior German Engineer in tech-support, my department was credited every quarter with more sales of our product than any other department. One quarter we fell just ten sales short of having sold more of our product than all other departments added together. Those sales were a by-product of my view of tech-support (and the way I ran my department) and that was as a pre-sales entity and not a post-sales one.

Even the joke about paying to have sex with a prostitute has one flaw. Before I point it out, yes not paying a prostitute means no sex. But paying $1,000,000 does not guarantee a good sexual experience because some folks are not as good at having sex or the two partners do not have good compatibility. One of your assertions is that paying more gets you more. The joke does not do a good job of supporting it.

Read the joke again, it was not about a prostitute. My pain threshold for buying the AX860 was at $200, I was lucky enough to get two of them for $189 each including postage. You read far too much into that joke which tells me more about you than anything else.

Plagiarist? Provide a direct example. A plagiarist copies someone else's stuff completely. That means you should be able to find identical content in my posts in yours. The few things that could be considered "copied" are concepts that are common knowledge and came to my attention independently from any interaction with you. Indeed, most of your statements are quite general and do not go into the specifics like I have.

Many of the things you point out as if it were from you I had either already posted in this thread or the thread I linked to in one of my posts above. Then you have the cheek to say that I had not mentioned it.

I'll just ignore the strawman argument you posted afterwards.

I tried to avoid being specific about other PSUs because I would get the replies that I was a Corsair fanboy if I did. I thought I would be on safe ground considering that the CX600 and the AX860 are both marketed by Corsair.

An example of you use of using just plain wrong information is describe in the following paragraph. At the most basic level, you used the units for density instead of energy in trying to describe heat transfer.
It was in another thread in this subforum. You made a little statement about warm air rising and somehow that air makes the top of the PSU too hot. Never mind that when discussing heat, the proper framework in analyzing heat transfer is to use the principles of thermodynamics. The basic technical explanation for warm air rising is that hot air is less dense than cold air. In other words, there is less mass per unit of volume. This is due to the molecules being further apart from each other. What you did not comprehend, is that the energy that air has will inevitably be transferred to somewhere. HEAT energy, is measured in JOULES or or its derivatives.

I was speaking of placing the PSU in the bottom of the case with the fan pointing downwards. There is an area of dead space between the PCB and the housing of the PSU which does not get ventilated and where heat can build up. It also does not make sense if one is using the PSU in fanless mode to have it oriented with the fan faced down.

Facing upwards the air warmed by the PSU will rise and escape through the opening where the fan is. This will give you more passive cooling than orienting the PSU with the fan faced downwards.

The AX860 (when set to hybrid) has a load specific trigger for the fan to engage whereas it appears that the HX850 has a temperature controlled trigger.

 

[lehtv]

I can't interpret anything other than that which you have written. A lot of what you write appears to me to be passive-aggressive negativism. such as the post I am just quoting.

Well I disagree about that, but if that's so, are you not guilty of the exact same in the very post I'm quoting?

 

[Nec_V20]

Well I disagree about that, but if that's so, are you not guilty of the exact same in the very post I'm quoting?

As the Aussies say, "Turn around is fair dinkum".