Question!

[RayTheKing]

I'm planning on overclocking my i5 4670k to 4.2-4.3 GHz and my GPU (SAPPHIRE HD 7870 2 GB) to 1150/1350 (Using MSI AfterBurner). Around how much wattage will I need? I'm planning on getting a CX600 for $60, but I wan't to know if that's too little/much. I would love some pointers on calculating watt consumption.

 

[Zap]

This chart shows 310W.

650W 80Plus Gold $60

 

[RayTheKing]

This chart shows 310W.

650W 80Plus Gold $60

After being on this forum for almost 2 months, I've become paranoid on the reliability of PSUs. I just spent 3 hours researching SPARKLE, and some are telling me that it's decent, but other sources tell me that it's bad. I do, however, see a 5 year warranty. Will it be able to power the rig at full load for extended periods of time? Since I'm vacationing, I really don't want it to fail on me.

 

[Torn Mind]

Failure due to too much wattage means that a component(s) within the circuit simply cannot handle the huge amount of electrons flowing through. But too much wattage is usually not the cause of failure because many PSUs will shut themselves down if such a situation occurs. I would say all quick PSU failures are due to defects.

Sometimes a component will fail due to defects(capacitors will fail, but a bulge indicates premature failure) or there a botched manufacturing job(cold solder joint, traces not separated). Components will have failure modes that will be reached over time, such as capacitor electrolyte drying up, but quick failures are indicative of a defect.

 

[lehtv]

Any 500W unit worth its salt will power your rig with plenty of room for safety margin.

Reliability over efficiency when picking a unit. I'm not convinced the Sparkle unit posted by Zap is reliable, even though the manufacturer, Great Wall, isn't considered bad. No professional reviews found.

What is your current power supply?

 

[Zap]

I'm not convinced the Sparkle unit posted by Zap is reliable, even though the manufacturer, Great Wall, isn't considered bad.

Which Sparkle are you talking about?

The one I linked is made by SPI and is part of FSP, so maybe it is a budget Aurum? Aren't Great Wall built Sparkle units the "other" Sparkle company that made graphics cards and are now no longer distribute in the USA?

 

[lehtv]

Oh, that does seem to be a different unit than the one I was looking at at realhardtechx.com. Their database doesn't even have Sparkle Power Inc.

 

[RayTheKing]

Do I really only need 500w? That's seems like too little, but I wouldn't know much about it.

PS: This is a rig I'm going to buy in a few days, so I don't have a previous PSU.

 

[Nec_V20]

I cannot understand people who look to cheap out on the component which - next to the motherboard - is the most critical for a system.

In fact, next to pouring a bucket of water over a running system, the PSU is the thing which can potentially cause the most damage to a system.

I wrote a post called, "Power Supply: PSU or IED" here: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2335096

Most power supplies when they reach the top end of their power draw also tend to have increased ripple in the voltage. Excessive ripple can result in everything from a device performing erratically to BSODs to a device being damaged.

ESPECIALLY if you are thinking of overclocking then you have to have a PSU that supplies clean voltages otherwise you are cruising for a bruising.

Another thing is that Haswell needs a power supply which is designed with your CPU in mind.

Compared to other components the difference in price between an OK PSU and a great one is a pittance. A great PSU will also save you money over time due to its efficiency.

For the two systems I built for myself this year I chose the Corsair AX860 PSU, and why not? Is it overkill? Yes it is, however I have the best PSU in my system that money can buy (I do not yet trust Corsair's "i" line of Flextronic PSUs AX760i, AX860i and AX1200i).

There is not a single knowledgeable person on this forum who will fault my choice of PSU. They might say I could have gotten by with another one, however if they were given the choice between the AX860 (or another AX type) and some other PSU they would, if the price was the same, get the AX860 without a second thought.

It's like the old joke:
Guy: "Would you sleep with me for a dollar?
Girl: "Not in your lifetime"
Guy: "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars"?
Girl: "Of course I would"
Guy: "Would you sleep with me for ten dollars"?
Girl: "Of course not, what do you think I am"?
Guy: "We've already established that, now we're just haggling over the price".

The bottom line is, with regard to your new system, if things don't work the way you want them to you could spend days trying to troubleshoot and sort it, and it will all be in vain if the cause of your problems is your choice of a cheap PSU.

 

[lehtv]

Do I really only need 500w? That's seems like too little, but I wouldn't know much about it.

Yes, you only need 500W. The rule of thumb is that any decent quality unit with the necessary number of PCIe connectors to power your graphics card is enough to power an average gaming rig with that graphics card in it.

Do you have a build thread? I'm getting the feeling that you could possibly buy a 7950 instead of a 7870 if you hunt for a few deals

@ Nec_V20

While you're right that you shouldn't cheap out on a PSU, I don't get that impression from this thread at all. The wattage rating of a unit has next to nothing to do with its reliability

 

[Nec_V20]

@ Nec_V20

While you're right that you shouldn't cheap out on a PSU, I don't get that impression from this thread at all. The wattage rating of a unit has next to nothing to do with its reliability

It is the quality of everything else about the AX860 - not the wattage - that made me decide to get it. Why not the AX760? Because I found an offer for the AX860 which was cheaper than any offer I could find for an AX760. I also have to say that my computers are on 24/7.

The AX860 PSU cost me just pennies (I mean that literally) more than the best price I could find for the HX850.

The HX650 would have cost me just under $150 so the jump to paying $188 for the AX860 was not a large one. I think the quality advantage of the AX860 vs. the HX650 more than makes up the $40 price difference. I spend more than $40 if I go to the pub for an evening.

I would never entertain the idea of getting a Corsair CX600, it will only deliver full power up to 30 degrees Celsius (so one should really think of it as a 500 or so Watt PSU). The build quality is just not up to snuff for anything other than casual use and I don't know whether or not it is compatible over the long haul with a Haswell system. It is neither quiet nor is it efficient.

The CX, GS and HX series are made by Channel Well
The TX (V2), HX650 and AX series are made by Seasonic
The AX"i" series (760i, 860i, 1200i) are made by Flextronics

Seasonic made PSUs have stood me in good stead for the past few years, they and Corsair have earned my loyalty.

The AX850 I have survived a power surge in our house that took out the PSUs (and in one case the motherboard) of two of my neighbours in the house and it has been running for four years now.

I don't just look at the price I have to pay now, but rather in the long run how much money it will save me to buy a really efficient PSU.

For the Corsair PSUs I would recommend the following to RayTheKing in descending order:

1) AX760
2) HX650
3) TX750 V2
http://forums.anandtech.com/member.php?u=331233

 

[lehtv]

It is the quality of everything else about the AX860 - not the wattage - that made me decide to get it.

I didn't say quality, I said reliability. Very different things. Quality comes in all manner of different forms that have nothing to do with reliability. E.g. modular cables, top efficiency, super long warranty. You could even say that having <1% or <3% voltage regulation makes no difference as both are well within safety margins and hence equally stable in practice.

I would never entertain the idea of getting a Corsair CX600, it will only deliver full power up to 30 degrees Celsius (so one should really think of it as a 500 or so Watt PSU).

You would if you had a limited budget.

500 watts is plenty for most gaming setups, no?

The build quality is just not up to snuff for anything other than casual use

Beg your pardon? How exactly is the build quality not good, and how is build quality an important factor when deciding whether a unit is good for casual and non-casual use? To me, it seems CX series have quite decent build quality, the only issue is the capacitors are mediocre which has some implications for longevity but that's it.

and I don't know whether or not it is compatible over the long haul with a Haswell system.

Not sure what that even means.

It is neither quiet nor is it efficient.

It is actually pretty efficient (80+ bronze), however both of these points are irrelevant to reliability.

I don't just look at the price I have to pay now, but rather in the long run how much money it will save me to buy a really efficient PSU.

The efficiency increase from Bronze to Platinum saves an average user maybe a few bucks a year.

 

[Nec_V20]

I didn't say quality, I said reliability. Very different things.

If reliability is not predicated on quality then I would like to know what it is predicated on. Luck? Religious fervour? Mumbled incantations whilst touching the power switch?

You would if you had a limited budget.

Are you trying to say that the money I have now is the only money I would ever have? A PC is a modular piece of equipment. So it would take me a few more weeks to have the completed system. I could have a complete system minus a few bits to make up for the added investment in a better PSU.

For instance in my complete system I want a 128 GB SSD and a 4TB hard drive. So I get the 128GB SSD now, and use that for three or four weeks. Or I install the OS to the hard drive but limit the size of the two partions to the size of my future SSD and then migrate the OS from the hard drive to the SSD when I buy it a couple of weeks or so in the future. Or I could delay buying the graphics card and spend the time properly configuring the system.

Beg your pardon? How exactly is the build quality not good, and how is build quality an important factor when deciding whether a unit is good for casual and non-casual use? To me, it seems CX series have quite decent build quality, the only issue is the capacitors are mediocre which has some implications for longevity but that's it.

This was weird, you first of all disagree with me and then go on to agree that the CX600 is not a PSU to recommend for extended use. Surely we can agree that if someone wants to use their computer for many hours of gaming at a time then there are better alternatives. Capacitor ageing will take quite a heavy toll on the PSU as well if it is heavily used.

Not sure what that even means.

I wasn't sure if the CX600 supported the new C6/C7 states, but now I am. The CX600 is not compatible with this Haswell feature. It will not support the low power state C6/C7 which in idle does save quite a lot of power (and money). I apologise for the awkward phrasing of my original statement - it was clear to me what I meant at the time, but in rereading it I share your confusion. My bad.

It is actually pretty efficient (80+ bronze), however both of these points are irrelevant to reliability.

The PSU peaks in efficiency at 86% (110VAC) at just over 240 Watts which strongly suggests that it is a mislabelled 500Watt unit.

The efficiency increase from Bronze to Platinum saves an average user maybe a few bucks a year.

At 300 Watt output The CX600 will be drawing in 349 Watt of power. The AX860 for instance at 300 Watt output would only be drawing in 323 Watt. At 450 Watt output the CX600 would be drawing 535 Watts whereas the AX860 would only be drawing 478 Watt.

CX600
300 Watt 4 hours a day ($0.1254 per KWH) = $63.9 per year (NY $98.39) (HI $188.73)
450 Watt 4 hours a day ($0.1254 per KWH) =$97.95 per year (NY $150.83) (HI $289.32)

AX860
300 Watt 4 hours a day ($0.1254 per KWH) = $59.24 per year (NY $91.06) (HI $174.67)
450 Watt 4 hours a day ($0.1254 per KWH) =$87.51 per year (NY $134.76) (HI $258.49)

This was calculated at the US average per KiloWatt Hour (KWH) $0.1254. In New York electricity costs $0.1931. You are really buggered if you live in Hawaii (HI) where the cost is $0.3704

I got the info on electricity cost from:
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

If you lived in New York the savings would be a lot more than average and in Hawaii the choice would be a no-brainer.

The longer and more intensively you use your computer the greater the savings will be. I don't see the price of energy going down any time in the near future.

This is always assuming of course that the CX600 lasts as long as the AX860.

Would you care to revise your "maybe a few bucks a year" estimate?

 

[DavidT99]

If reliability is not predicated on quality then I would like to know what it is predicated on. Luck? Religious fervour? Mumbled incantations whilst touching the power switch?

Are you trying to say that the money I have now is the only money I would ever have? A PC is a modular piece of equipment. So it would take me a few more weeks to have the completed system. I could have a complete system minus a few bits to make up for the added investment in a better PSU.

For instance in my complete system I want a 128 GB SSD and a 4TB hard drive. So I get the 128GB SSD now, and use that for three or four weeks. Or I install the OS to the hard drive but limit the size of the two partions to the size of my future SSD and then migrate the OS from the hard drive to the SSD when I buy it a couple of weeks or so in the future. Or I could delay buying the graphics card and spend the time properly configuring the system.

This was weird, you first of all disagree with me and then go on to agree that the CX600 is not a PSU to recommend for extended use. Surely we can agree that if someone wants to use their computer for many hours of gaming at a time then there are better alternatives. Capacitor ageing will take quite a heavy toll on the PSU as well if it is heavily used.

I wasn't sure if the CX600 supported the new C6/C7 states, but now I am. The CX600 is not compatible with this Haswell feature. It will not support the low power state C6/C7 which in idle does save quite a lot of power (and money). I apologise for the awkward phrasing of my original statement - it was clear to me what I meant at the time, but in rereading it I share your confusion. My bad.

The PSU peaks in efficiency at 86% (110VAC) at just over 240 Watts which strongly suggests that it is a mislabelled 500Watt unit.

At 300 Watt output The CX600 will be drawing in 349 Watt of power. The AX860 for instance at 300 Watt output would only be drawing in 323 Watt. At 450 Watt output the CX600 would be drawing 535 Watts whereas the AX860 would only be drawing 478 Watt.

CX600
300 Watt 4 hours a day ($0.1254 per KWH) = $63.9 per year (NY $98.39) (HI $188.73)
450 Watt 4 hours a day ($0.1254 per KWH) =$97.95 per year (NY $150.83) (HI $289.32)

AX860
300 Watt 4 hours a day ($0.1254 per KWH) = $59.24 per year (NY $91.06) (HI $174.67)
450 Watt 4 hours a day ($0.1254 per KWH) =$87.51 per year (NY $134.76) (HI $258.49)

This was calculated at the US average per KiloWatt Hour (KWH) $0.1254. In New York electricity costs $0.1931 You are really buggered if you live in Hawaii (HI) where the cost is $0.3704

I got the info on electricity cost from:
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

If you lived in New York the savings would be a lot more than average and in Hawaii the choice would be a no-brainer.

The longer and more intensively you use your computer the greater the savings will be. I don't see the price of energy going down any time in the near future.

This is always assuming of course that the CX600 lasts as long as the AX860.

Would you care to revise your "maybe a few bucks a year" estimate?

By your own calculations that is only a few bucks a year. But I guess it depends on what you consider a few bucks to equate too. What is the price difference between your AX860 and the CX600? If you assume a PSU has a five year life then I hope the difference is less than $50.

 

[Nec_V20]

By your own calculations that is only a few bucks a year. But I guess it depends on what you consider a few bucks to equate too. What is the price difference between your AX860 and the CX600? If you assume a PSU has a five year life then I hope the difference is less than $50.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the chances of a CX600 (with a warranty of two years) living to the ripe old age of 5 years is exceedingly slim, whereas for the AX860 (with a warranty of seven years) it would be just over middle age with two years of warranty left.

If we take the typical life expectancy of the two (life expectancy = warranty + one day) then you would have to buy more than three CX600 PSUs for one AX860.

And of course you would have been shafted with the added cost of electricity in the mean time for the privilege of having "saved" so much by buying the CX600 in the first place.

 

[DavidT99]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the chances of a CX600 (with a warranty of two years) living to the ripe old age of 5 years is exceedingly slim, whereas for the AX860 (with a warranty of seven years) it would be just over middle age with two years of warranty left.

If we take the typical life expectancy of the two (life expectancy = warranty + one day) then you would have to buy more than three CX600 PSUs for one AX860.

And of course you would have been shafted with the added cost of electricity for the privilege.

But length of warranty has nothing to do with life expectancy. I generally replace a PSU after roughly 4 years of use, so if you replace the CX and the AX after 4 years what has the cost difference been? At today's Newegg prices you are spending $135 more on the AX to save $64 of electricity (NY prices).

 

[Nec_V20]

But length of warranty has nothing to do with life expectancy. I generally replace a PSU after roughly 4 years of use, so if you replace the CX and the AX after 4 years what has the cost difference been? At today's New egg prices you are spending $135 more on the AX to save $64 of electricity (NY prices).

My AX850 has been running 24/7 in two systems for just over four years now. I doubt very much that I could have relied on a CX600 for that.

I moved from Germany to the UK in 1998 and up to 2009 when I bought the AX850 I had had a total of six PSUs die on me. The ones I had purchased were not cheap ones either.

You will notice that I chose VERY conservative values for my comparison with regard to usage per day and thus electricity costs per year.

 

[lehtv]

If reliability is not predicated on quality then I would like to know what it is predicated on.

You misunderstand me, I never said claimed otherwise. I said reliability is not the same thing as quality because quality can mean a lot of other things that have nothing to do with reliability

Are you trying to say that the money I have now is the only money I would ever have? A PC is a modular piece of equipment. So it would take me a few more weeks to have the completed system. I could have a complete system minus a few bits to make up for the added investment in a better PSU.

I'm not saying anything about what is and isn't. It was a "what if" scenario - what if you simply didn't have enough money to spend on a PC that you couldn't reasonably buy that high end unit you want? Then you would buy CX series. You wouldn't have the choice of spending any more on the PSU. This is why budget units exist

This was weird, you first of all disagree with me and then go on to agree that the CX600 is not a PSU to recommend for extended use.

Where did I say that? I'm not sure how you got from "some implications for longevity" to "not recommended for extended use".

Surely we can agree that if someone wants to use their computer for many hours of gaming at a time then there are better alternatives.

These better alternatives are also more expensive.

Would you care to revise your "maybe a few bucks a year" estimate?

No

 

[Torn Mind]

Once again, Nec is parroting his sophisms. While there are some truths in his posts, he confounds that information with statements that are based on irrelevant information, questionable assumptions or mere poetic fluff. Since the length of his posts are long, dealing with every statement will only serve to detract from the matter at hand, although I'm willing to engage so long as it doesn't distract from the topic of PSU reliability.
---------------------------
Now, the following is not written specifically in response to anyone, but rather my thoughts and observations on the matter. Indeed, my credentials are weak, but I HAVE worked on circuit boards recently since I am trying to repair a bloody TV. After reading service manuals and having to educate myself on what parts go in the circuit board holes, I have discovered a few basic things about PSUs.

One, there is a distinct PSU board on any electronic product that needs to convert AC to DC power. HDTVs, DVD players, blah blah blah. THEY ALL HAVE PSUs in them, but not in a separate box.

One aspect of the PSU reliability is that it will not fail prematurely. That is, it remains functional for a period of time; the longer the better. "Prematurely" is the critical word, as a PSU WILL ultimately fail at some point as the components used all have some known failure modes; chemical reactions are simply going to occur and you cannot stop them.

A PSU can fail either due to manufacturing defects, it can die to due expected component failure, or if it it is run too far out of spec.

The key to understanding PSU failures is that you are dealing with an electrical circuit, and a PSU, OR ANYTHING ELSE using a PCB, can fail when a component in the circuit fails OR the connection between the components fails.

One way a PSU can fail is due to defects in soldering. Components are soldered onto the board and they become part of the circuit. The solder connects the component leads to the conductive material on and within the circuit board. A poor solder joint (cold joint) will cause the connection between the components and the circuit board trace to be unreliable and eventually break even though the components themselves are fine.This is one way the connection between the components can break. To properly evaluate a particular PSU line's soldering quality would require opening up quite a few units and a strong magnifying glass, and a lot of time

Another way a PSU failure can occur is due to manufacturing defects in the components themselves(this includes the board), such as a bad batch of capacitors. Although, resistors, transistors, transformers, and anything else that can go on a PCB can also fail. The only way to evaluate component quality is to crack the PSU open and find the spec sheets on everything.

Yet there is yet another scenario in which the parts themselves can be defect-free but die quickly. This can be due to the PSU components forced to run beyond their spec, i.e a Diablotek PSU actually asked to pull 480 Watts when its actual parts can only pull half of that, or it can be due to parts simply designed to have a shorter expected life, such as an 85 degree rated capacitor.

Omission of components are another potential source of unreliability, as components that serve some function that enhances reliability is removed.

Another aspect of reliability is that the electricity delivered is close enough to actual direct current so data errors do not occur. Line filtering is the primary factor in making sure this does not happen. Checking out whether all of the required capacitors are installed and using an oscilloscope will evaluate this aspect of reliability.

Another aspect of reliability is protection from physical force and damage. Strength of the container walls and other aspects in build quality should be evaluated in that regard.

Another aspect of reliability is that when the PSU dies, it doesn't kill other components. Of course, you can't kill a component without electricity, so in other words, you want the PSU to die in a way in which it doesn't deliver a deadly amount of electricity. You want the PSU circuit to fail in a way such that it will deliver no or too little electricity to the components. You have to try to kill the PSU first though. See if the fuse blows or if it shuts down safely.
Poor design can also kill a PSU quickly, such as airflow direction and heatsink size.

Pretty much, a Corsair CX600 PSU will die prematurely a due to manufacturing defect, most likely from its CapXon capacitors. IT WILL NOT, if you get a defect-free unit, cause system instability or shorten the life of your caps "downstream" from it on the mobo. Its noise and ripple control is excellent. It has been tested to pull its rated capacity; it can handle 600 watts of electricity flowing through it.

 

[lehtv]

Bookmarked.

 

[RayTheKing]

When did this thread turn into a flame war? This started from me asking how much wattage was needed in my situation. ._.

 

[RayTheKing]

Thanks for helping me out on my little issue guys!

@Nec: Those AX PSUs are pretty amazing, from reading about your experiences. However, they're a bit over my budget . I think I'm just going to stick to a CXxxx, I just don't know if I should get a 500w unit or a 600 watt one.

 

[Nec_V20]

You misunderstand me, I never said claimed otherwise. I said reliability is not the same thing as quality because quality can mean a lot of other things that have nothing to do with reliability

And you misunderstand me. As a techie I live by the code, "Never touch a running system", and buying quality is the best way of assuring that I can abide by that code. Put it this way, after 30 years of being a computer techie I have kissed enough frogs to know better.

I'm not saying anything about what is and isn't. It was a "what if" scenario - what if you simply didn't have enough money to spend on a PC that you couldn't reasonably buy that high end unit you want? Then you would buy CX series. You wouldn't have the choice of spending any more on the PSU. This is why budget units exist

I am simply going by what the OP posted and that is the scenario I was and am replying to.

Which part of

the capacitors are mediocre which has some implications for longevity

and what I wrote

the CX600 is not a PSU to recommend for extended use

are contradictory?

These better alternatives are also more expensive.

Duh!

1) You say it like it is a bad thing

2) You say it like better should be cheaper?

I think you would be revising your "maybe a few bucks a year" quip if you lived in Hawaii - is that still a part of the USA or have the Republicans ceded that to Kenya?

 

[Nec_V20]

Once again, Nec is parroting his sophisms. While there are some truths in his posts, he confounds that information with statements that are based on irrelevant information, questionable assumptions or mere poetic fluff. Since the length of his posts are long, dealing with every statement will only serve to detract from the matter at hand, although I'm willing to engage so long as it doesn't distract from the topic of PSU reliability.

Are you a techie or do you sell cars for a living?

I have to ask because you diss me in the first paragraph, then draw a line under it and then reiterate everything I have said with regard to bad PSUs in the following text.

I don't mind you being a plagiarist, I do however mind you being a twat about it.

Is it jealousy because of the fact that I can articulate myself better in my second language (English) than you can in your first (and only) barely?

Let me sum it up for you sonny. Quality (and therefore more reliable) PSUs have narrower tolerances coupled with greater bandwidth, achieved through superior components and craftsmanship - or as we Germans like to call it, "Vorsprung durch Technik". That has its price.

Your post is another one which can be summed up with the phrase, "You deprive me of solitude whilst affording no companionship whatsoever".

 

[Nec_V20]

When did this thread turn into a flame war? This started from me asking how much wattage was needed in my situation. ._.

I don't have flame wars, just roadkill along the way.

After 30 years as a computer techie, being on the bleeding edge of technology, I can go bare knuckle.