How about actually putting into words what the US Government keeps saying it wants to spread? Rumsfeld said today that the US wants to spread 'our' freedom to the rest of the world. What is 'our' freedom? Is 'our' freedom something the rest of the world wishes to adopt? Are 'our' values superior to others? Is this spreading 'our' freedom and values or imposing 'our' might on the rest of the world?
Question: What values and freedom is the US trying to spread?
- Thread starter Sultan
- Start date
we will never succeed in that endeavor, not atleast until the world is engulfed in a gigantic mushroom cloud, and life restarts from a tiny tadpol pond in crawford texas.
The "rest of the world"?
Nice exagaration.
Tone down the rhetoric and than let's discuss. Though it looks as if you already have your mind made up and like most threads here it will do no good to discuss anything with you.
Hey look, I can post a silly emotican also.
:roll:
Wow, that really helped the discussion move right along. Thank you for your valuable contribution Bowfinger. It's up to the standard we have all come to expect from you.
The value of Jesus. You know Bush and Jesus have regular conversations right? Yeah, Jesus told him to send troops to Iraq. Jesus told him to not punish the soldiers committing horrible acts to prisoners. This is a crusade for Jesus. And oil.
A crusade is when the big boys go after the little ones. A Jihad is when the little guys go after the big ones. And the people hurt the most? The innocents in the wrong place at the wrong time.
A crusade is when the big boys go after the little ones. A Jihad is when the little guys go after the big ones. And the people hurt the most? The innocents in the wrong place at the wrong time.
No, please offer your opinions. There's no rhetoric, just questions. I have posed questions, not answers.
No one is innocent in this world anymore. You're either with us or you're against us. This is a struggle of ideologies, a clash of cultures, a conflict of continents, a battle of good versus evil. There is middle ground or bystanders.
Zephyr
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
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Bite me. You're the one who's dodging the topic, just as you have so many times before.
Shall I dig out some of the old threads where you jumped in, dumped a few personal attacks and diversions, and stubbornly refused to engage in a discussion on the topic of the thread even after being called on it repeatedly?
Attacks and diversions you can do. Substance is still MIA.
I'm going to assume you mean "There is no middle ground or bystanders." because the statement makes no sense to me otherwise.
Anyways, we don't control the government anymore. These people we "elect" make decisions based on which corporation pays them the most. It's called lobbying. They make decisions based on party rhetoric. They don't pay attention to the little people that "elected" them in the first place. They pay attention to the almighty dollar. We are the innocents. We are the ones paying for the evils of those in charge. The bureaucracy no longer cares who gets hurt, as long as they continue to do what they do best. Nothing.
Every citizen in Iraq that was not part of the official military is an innocent. They lived their lives, much as we do, oppressed by the dictator in charge. The American military destroys their homes, kill their children, and destroy their way of life. All in the name of <insert lie of the week>.
The Iraqi people did not have a choice in this war, and neither did the American people. We are, at most, extras in Bush's little play. Some of us have lines, but none of us matter. The bureaucracy won a long time ago, and it will continue to roll over everything in its way, good or bad. The people suffering won't be the politicians and other liars in Washington. It will be the people that have to worry about the bomb threats, the American soldiers, or any other threat stemming from the idiocy in charge.
There are no innocents? Maybe, but only because we can't stand up and stop the corruptions.
The whole forum is filled with righteous yelling, but no one bothers to listen. What's the point in a post like this? If you want that little number on the left to go up, do it in OT.
Then again, since everyone has determined what is correct in every situation and doesn't bother listening to the other side of the story, I'm not sure why I bother to try.
peonyu
Platinum Member
- Mar 12, 2003
- 2,038
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imo all that really needs to be done is to set some Basic freedoms - like Freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for woman and all minorities including religous minorities.
Aslo, Implementing a un-alterable seperation of church and state in thier constitution would be a great safeguard, just incase they democratically vote in a fundamentalist who wants to turn it into the next iran.
Even though some would consider those 'freedoms' as forced upon them and as not allowing them to shape thier own future...it cant be denied that those basic freedoms are needed since the region has a history of denying basic rights to thier christian minority [overlooking forced conversions and church burnings], and treating woman as property.
Other than those basic things they should be able to shape thier country anyway they want to imo.
Aslo, Implementing a un-alterable seperation of church and state in thier constitution would be a great safeguard, just incase they democratically vote in a fundamentalist who wants to turn it into the next iran.
Even though some would consider those 'freedoms' as forced upon them and as not allowing them to shape thier own future...it cant be denied that those basic freedoms are needed since the region has a history of denying basic rights to thier christian minority [overlooking forced conversions and church burnings], and treating woman as property.
Other than those basic things they should be able to shape thier country anyway they want to imo.
That sounds noble and all, peonyu, except that we're saying one thing, doing another. While the new Iraqi flag omits "God Is Great", Fundies insist that the pledge of allegiance contain the words "under God". Dubya's faith based initiatives are just thinly veiled subsidies for religious groups, and school vouchers are much the same. We tear down the entire Baathist system in iraq, forgetting that it was one of the few native forces that offered equality for women, even as our own govt websites are stripped of information vital to women's health and reproductive rights, various govt commissions on women's issues dismantled. We tout freedom of the press, even as we promote the consolidation of our own media into the hands of a few conservative oligarchies and shut down Iraqi newspapers that offend us. We speak of civil rights, even as we try to tear down the mechanism of affirmative action, which was designed to correct the imbalances inherent in hundreds of years of discrimination and repression. We speak of equality of opportunity, how the brightest and best should get ahead in the game, as our system of legacy admission to the best universities intensifies...
Americans can easily live within the contradictions, particularly conservatives, since we're part of the problem. We can't see the forest for the trees. Much of the rest of the world sees it for what it is, having an entirely different perspective.
Americans can easily live within the contradictions, particularly conservatives, since we're part of the problem. We can't see the forest for the trees. Much of the rest of the world sees it for what it is, having an entirely different perspective.
peonyu
Platinum Member
- Mar 12, 2003
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I know that thats not what were doing, its just my little view on what should be done since i feel that would have the greatest long term impact. As it is now though, it does seem that Bush is spouting double standards by supporting faith based initiatives [among many other things] while trying to secularize iraq. Thats not surprising to me though, afterall the war in Iraq is now widely known to have been a war waged for the self serving interests of Bush and polititions alike, and as such its no surprise that the policies he wants forced upon Iraqies reflects his own self interests in the region.
What values and freedom is the US trying to spread?
Well, slightly better values and freedoms than Saddam's-- seems very unambitious to me.
Well, slightly better values and freedoms than Saddam's-- seems very unambitious to me.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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Even though some would consider those 'freedoms' as forced upon them {If it is forced on them it is not a freedom, whether in quotes or not} and as not allowing them to shape thier own future...it cant be denied that those basic freedoms are needed since the region has a history of denying basic rights to thier christian minority [overlooking forced conversions and church burnings]{and overlooking the basic fact that killing these people to free them is very much something Winston Smith would find recommended to him by the Ministry of Love}, and treating woman as property {which wont be a serious problem once we kill them}
You DO NOT force these things on a society. When did we get the right to kill to free?
We are what we feared.
You DO NOT force these things on a society. When did we get the right to kill to free?
We are what we feared.
zephyrprime
Diamond Member
- Feb 18, 2001
- 7,512
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The US says it want's to spread democracy but then it doesn't hold elections and it doesn't allow the new Iraqi government the power to pass laws? How can it look to the Iraqis like anything else that the US is in Iraq for conquest? The problem is, democracy means that the Iraqis might elect mullahs. The US is unwilling to let that happen so no democracy for the Iraqis.
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