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olds
Elite Member
[/b]Posted in general because of this comment, not directed at the OP[/b]
You know what? I am sick of this bullshit. Show me one fucking thing in life that is consistent.
Some of you people have to be the dumbest idiots that I have ever run across.
50 people speeding, one gets caught. One guy busted for crack cocaine gets 10 years, powder cocaine gets you a year. The world is not fair, it is not impartial. The forums are just a microcosm of that world. If you think it is any different, you are stupid. Just because you have a sense of entitlement and a big mouth doesn't make it fair.
The mods don't see every thread. So to cry and whine about someone getting away with something because you didn't, is stupid. Not ignorant, stupid.
There are at least 38 people between the mods and the admins that can take action. Let me see you get 38 people in a room and get a consensus and consistency on a subject. It just isn't going to happen. To think otherwise, is stupid. Most of the time, the mods get it right. When they don't, they attempt to correct it. But hey, this is the real world. If you have been sanctioned 42 times in the past, you will not get the benefit of the doubt. You don't deserve it.
Personally (if I was posting this as a mod), I'd nuke a whole bunch of you just to weed out the idiots, trolls and worthless individuals we have here. These forums have gone into a cesspool since the new changes and HQ has abandoned the effort. That in and of itself ought to tell you and the mods what they think about this place. We have the crappiest software available with zero tech support. Most of the input from the mods have fallen on deaf ears because a few whiners have the ear of HQ. Never mind the fact that Harvey and the more senior mods have grown this place into what was/is. Argue all you want about how harsh the mods and some of the members are, you can't argue with success. (Well you can and you will but it is not reasonable)
But is this PC age, the squeaky wheels get the grease. Even if that squeaky wheel is an ignorant/stupid, wheel. Afterall, people don't post here to give praise, only to whine.
When's the last time someone posted here to thank someone for saving their ass in a FS/T dispute?
Now, I am out so back to your regularly scheduled whining.
<---- oldsmoboat
Nothing has been indicated to the Moderators of such.
It would seem that if the site was on the block, it would be dressed up rather than being allowed to degrade.
When Derek first showed up, it was, "give me a list of issues and they will get forwarded to FT with a deadline for correction".
Now it seems as it someone is making negative changes - things that were fixed have become broken, Derek does not communicate with us at all and the operation seems to be a ship with no one at the helm.
moshquerade
No Lifer
That's just odd. He seemed so driven and was spending A LOT of time here awhile back. He seemed to care. For him to up and disappear like that makes you wonder if he is ok.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
The uneven moderation has never been an issue to reasonable people. There's a hell of a lot of threads and a large moderation staff that is not always going to see eye-to-eye on each others' decisions. A repeat offender is going to be viewed with a certain amount of prejudice because of their known history. That's all fine.
What's been maddening about the moderation here is the ludicrous bias that's been extremely evident in terms of coming down hard on some members - say, of a certain political persuasion - while the other side runs amok. That certain members are deemed untouchable due to longevity of their stays here. And you know what - all of this has been wonderfully resolved by the changes in moderator privacy. It's not perfect, but as you said very little ever is. But it's sure as hell a lot better than before the changes.
No doubt the AnandTech Forums have grown, but have they grown as much as they could/should?
FatWallet: 760,587 members
Tom's Hardware Forums: 296,489 members
Techimo.com 216,453 members
Neowin Forums: 197,853 members
Offtopic.com: 178,741 members
AnandTech Forums: 169,964 members
Do you seriously think that at least part of this relative sluggishness it not because of the previous policies - or should I say, the lack thereof? The non-accountability through anonymous moderators. The utter lack of written rules. If the use of all this is so great, why is it that all of the forums I listed do nothing of the kind?
To throw this all on the member base and the "whiners who has the ear of HQ", frankly, demonstrates one of the key problems you guys would be having. You don't seem to want to help push through change that just might help the forums. And if you guys aren't believers, what hope do you have of transforming the way the community here acts?
I imagine that over at AT HQ, there's not only frustration with the membership and the software, but also you with the people who make up the moderation of the site. The forums post-change are far from a cesspool - even P&N has improved in tone. But all we forum members ever hear is the same bullshit derision from you folks, and yet you seem surprised when a tone of hostility is returned in kind. Amazing.
I'm definitely not saying that it's all the admin's and moderator's fault, as growing any website is a supremely difficult task, but if you think that you yourself aren't a very large part of the problem, you're deluding yourselves. Give a non-condescending tone a try and stick to it more than a couple of months. Believe in the changes you're asked to implement. And quit blaming all these fuckups on a membership who is even less informed about what's going on than any of you are.
Edit: Take an anecdotal example from this OT thread: Why do guys here dislike Hardforums? Almost unanimously everyone in the thread cites the attitude of the owner/moderators. These are good, solid, knowledgable members speaking. And on some other site out there, people have said/are saying the exact same thing about AnandTech. They're not all idiots, trolls and worthless individuals.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
Keep in mind Sully, oldsmoboat was speaking for himself, not the Moderators.
I'll be glad to tell you what my biggest complaint is, Derek going absent leaving us holding the bag. The changes were just starting to be implemented and there were many more to come and now, nothing, zip, zero. There also isn't anybody the members can go to if they have a complaint about the Moderation and my problem with that is that it gives the impression to the membership that we have no accountability.
Having someone like Derek in charge of the Moderation took a lot of the pressure off of us because he'd tell us what he wanted us to do in any situation where we might have questions. Now that's not there anymore. We are as frustrated as the membership.
Here's an example of an action that I took that I would have liked to have been able to discuss with Derek if he were available. I'm fairly sure I took the right action but I'm not so sure how ATHQ or Derek would have responded as they seemed to have a more liberal approach to these kind of topics.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
Oh, of course. Though I think there's an attitude of condescension that sometimes envelops most/all moderators, I was replying on a one-to-one basis. Each and every one of you do a great job outside of the small mistakes any human is prone to, but I think looking back longingly at the pre-change days is silly. Things are better, just a little confused. Fighting it is just doing everyone a disservice.
Offhand, having just a single person at the top seems like a bad idea for the reason we're seeing now - one person can easily get busy and disappear for a long period of time. If it's not already in the works, maybe you could ask Derek to appoint one or two more people to the same final decision-making power he's got.
Offhand, having just a single person at the top seems like a bad idea for the reason we're seeing now - one person can easily get busy and disappear for a long period of time. If it's not already in the works, maybe you could ask Derek to appoint one or two more people to the same final decision-making power he's got.
waggy
No Lifer
yeap i agree.
i have seen post where someone gets nailed for something. then not to much latter someone says something far worse and nothing is done.
and hell in P&N its bad at times.
But i do disagree where you say that the mods don't wan't to push through changes that would be benifcial. problem is i really don't think they can do shit about it. thats gotta be frustrating. Because i know it is to me talking ot them about some of the shit and the response is "what do you want me to do about it?"
i have said before most of the mods here are great. Sure i will argue with them and even call some names (some anyway. some will hit the ban button to damn fast) but thats because i know most are good and try to be fair.
in other forums you even have a post that disagrees with how a mod thinks they strike you down. at least here you have a chance of actually saying how you feel without getting beat for it.
but i agree we need more then Derek to talk to. if he is going to be gone and someone gets banned from a knee-jerk reaction they need someone to be able to plead the case to. if he is gone whats the use?
it don't have to be other mods. probably better if is not. but then that would be useless since they can't ban or unban heh
Red: in that thread what would the discussion be? it was a good lock. i don't think ATOT needs such threads. it opens the posters up to problems that they don't need.
alkemyst
No Lifer
I don't know what the point was above other than life sucks so get used to it.
This is clearly someone that's a poor choice of moderating when they base things on 'just because it's like that everywhere'.
A proper moderator would understand there are different opinions and levels of understanding out there.
I don't even get the looking for thanks comment. There are posts with praise in them as well, but seeing the world with blinders on is very common. Others would probably use the same stupid/ignorant comments you did to describe that.
olds
Elite Member
I am not trying to change anything, I am ranting. You act like you've never read one of my posts before. 😛 Though I have mellowed in the past few years.
It's just frustrating being caught between a rock and a hard plce. But like I told Mosh, I don't quit just because something gets hard.
alkemyst
No Lifer
IMHO moderation should take place when someone is being threatened or a person is just purposely trolling a thread.
If someone says "I hate gay people" as an example in the WWYD thread that started a lot of this, to me that should not be basis of a kick. Saying I would kill a gay person, or harm them is another matter. Saying you wish you child was never born is not the same as killing them.
Also in moderating one has to think objectively despite one's own opinion. However; what we have been getting is opinionated moderation. Yes this is what happens MOSTLY in the real world yet defines why not everyone should/can be a moderator.
Quite a few of us have noticed who possible mods are now that in the past have locked/deleted heated threads we have been in and given vacations.
To me it really doesn't matter, I take it for what it is; mostly a bunch of people looking more for the attention/power than the job/function.
If someone says "I hate gay people" as an example in the WWYD thread that started a lot of this, to me that should not be basis of a kick. Saying I would kill a gay person, or harm them is another matter. Saying you wish you child was never born is not the same as killing them.
Also in moderating one has to think objectively despite one's own opinion. However; what we have been getting is opinionated moderation. Yes this is what happens MOSTLY in the real world yet defines why not everyone should/can be a moderator.
Quite a few of us have noticed who possible mods are now that in the past have locked/deleted heated threads we have been in and given vacations.
To me it really doesn't matter, I take it for what it is; mostly a bunch of people looking more for the attention/power than the job/function.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
Haha!
No worries oldsmoboat, I know that it's a rant and nobody can help but get jaded at the one millionth idiotic post.
Yeah, the hostility moderators face is in some part because the membership is often silly and treats each lock and ban like it's a personal conspiracy against them. You don't deserve that. But there's also been very valid complaints against the system and style of moderation here in the past. Locks without explanation given, and then a ban threatened when the poster asks why in Forum Issues. The anonymity that deepened the conspiracy theories but also, if we're being completely honest, seems to have encouraged some people to lock and ban with prejudice. I don't know who those people were, and frankly, I don't want to know. We're in a different place now and the only thing I will bother to type way too much about is to attempt to ensure we don't go back there.
Being eclipsed by sites that are basically spinoffs of this one (ObeseWallet, NeoWin) should be at least a little telling as to where things have gone right and wrong. You can argue for quality over quantity, but realistically there have been forum policies that have done more harm than good around here over the last 8 years and still persist. No stickied rules thread for 7 years? That's a joke, and a bad one. It only ever hurt membership growth and the perception of accountability. You know why I personally think a rules list was resisted for so long? Because it gave moderators more leeway to do whatever the fuck they wanted without someone being able to point the action out and say, "Hey, you're not supposed to do that." Maybe that perception and reasoning is horribly inaccurate, but how were we ever to know?
There's tons of management and moderator decisions that have slowed or stopped growth around here - banning members is probably the very last thing that should be looked at. Personally I'd open up a casting call to members of GH, Video and other forums to ask them to send in sample pieces of writing and reviews. (The long-abandoned FAQs were a nice start.) There's a lot of free talent here being wasted while you concentrate on the worst of the place.
Pliablemoose
Lifer
Interesting thread...
yllus, you make some good points, if AT had been more progressive in Hot Deals way back when, Fat Wallet would never have gotten as big as it has...
From what little I know about the forums, it seems they wanted the forums to at least pay for themselves, and I suspect that's still a long ways off.
Red & Olds, you guys sound frustrated, and I can see why, particularly since you guys were made public & there's no going back now.
yllus, you make some good points, if AT had been more progressive in Hot Deals way back when, Fat Wallet would never have gotten as big as it has...
From what little I know about the forums, it seems they wanted the forums to at least pay for themselves, and I suspect that's still a long ways off.
Red & Olds, you guys sound frustrated, and I can see why, particularly since you guys were made public & there's no going back now.
alkemyst
No Lifer
I also agree a lot with yllus...OT and P&N should be the last places the mods focus. In either of those forums there really is no wrong answers.
I tend to not post much outside OT as while there is a lot of good info, there are many that are serving up the same old nonsense that many buy into.
I tend to not post much outside OT as while there is a lot of good info, there are many that are serving up the same old nonsense that many buy into.
alkemyst
No Lifer
Why? are people forced to open each topic?
I wasn't saying there are never times for moderation in those two forums, just that they should be the last of the forums here for that as they are destined to be like that. Much of the heated debates I see anyway here are simply people attacking the person and ignoring what's said. The other majority are those simply posting up things without any back up other than they are right.
In OT of all things unless there is talk of crime, victimization, etc I think things should be let alone. People will learn like on other forums to simply ignore the topics they don't want to see. What happens though is a handful want OT to be a custom forum to their liking. You can see the same people over and over again running to the mods and the mods doing what is asked. IMHO the mods should tell those people don't click on the freaking topic. You saw it once and didn't like it. You posted your thoughts, they posted back theirs in non-agreement.
Only times I have called on mods was when harm was being discussed and the last time was the asshat asking about a stolen item he KNOWINGLY bought stolen. Sad part with that guy is looking at his ton of heat and his self-description of himself (young) I don't know if he's not dealing with a lot of 'acquired' property. Last thing I need is being something from FS/T here from a trusted trader and having the cops knock on my door. Possession of stolen property has anyone saying 'I didn't know it was stolen'.
I mostly like ATOT during working hours though since it's a cleaner forum for the most part. Most of my car forums or places like gfy are beyond NSFW.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
Actually it's less frustrating to me now than before. In fact I like it now we're public , the rules are posted and there's accountability for the Mods as it's less pressure. I'm frustrated that Derek's not around anymore because he was able to see first hand what we had to deal with and he could relay it straight back to Anand so Anand could get an accurate picture of the situation.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
The main focus of our moderation by far is the For Sale Forum then OT. P&N really isn't modded that much in comparison of the other two it just seems that it is because a lot of members in P&N are always complaining about each other (one Mod mentioned that those in that forum reminded him of his Pre School Children, always egging each other on) From my perspective though it seems to me that we are Modding both P&N and OT a lot less than we did before.
Also it's not about right or wrong answers Alky, it's about behavior.
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