Question on Macs

[Yohhan]

Looking to learn a little bit about the Mac OS, and not sure where to start. I had a couple of questions about it. First, is it true that it's hardware independent? Do I need to buy a Mac computer to use the operating system? Or can I buy it and put it on my p4 machine? Second, what names does the Mac OS go by? I've used Linux and Windows in the past, and literally know nothing about Mac. So even getting some important keywords to plug into google would be helpful.

Thanks.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Yohhan
Looking to learn a little bit about the Mac OS, and not sure where to start.

Classic or OS X?

I had a couple of questions about it. First, is it true that it's hardware independent? Do I need to buy a Mac computer to use the operating system? Or can I buy it and put it on my p4 machine?

The core of OS X, Darwin, will run on x86 based PCs. Aqua, the GUI part of Mac OS X, has only been released for MacPPC. To get the whole Mac feel, you need a Mac.

Second, what names does the Mac OS go by?

OS 9 and below are classic. Mac OS X is 10 and above. There are codenames for Mac OS X versions, including panther, tiger, and some others I forget. (I think tiger is 10.4, not 100% on it though)

 

[drag]

Mac OS can only be used on PowerPC machines.

PowerPC (or PPC) is a different architecture from x86 (otherwise known as PC clones or in the old days as IBM PC compatable computers).


That means that programs compiled to run on a x86 computer won't run on a PPC computer and visa versa. You can run them on either thru emulators, but that is incredably slow.

Apple hasn't had a OS ported to run on x86 yet, so the only way to get it is to buy a Apple computer, now you can buy a older computer running OS 9 if you want, and then buy OS X seperately and install it on the older computer, just as long as it is not TOO old.

However Apple computers don't degrade in price like normal PC's. It's kinda like old Toyota pickups, people who have them have little desire to sell them and when they finally upgrade they still think their old Mac is worth a lot more then it realy is.

The cheapest way that I can think of to get a computer that will run to Ebay and check out their for a while till you find a good deal or to go down to Apple.com's store section and check out the "Special Deals" section.

Right now you can get a "refurbished" 12inch (very small and cool) ibook with a 800mhz G4 proccessor for 649 bucks. (Which is actually a decent deal for this quality of a laptop, about the same power as a 1.2ghz Pentium3/4 or a 1.4-2.0ghz celeron, depending on the type of proccessing)

Sometimes they have eMacs which are the plasticy computers that have the CRT and computer part as one big peice. Imacs are the ones with the LCD screen attached to a base by a adjustable arm and the base houses the computer. Powerbooks are the higher end laptops, sizes 12inches to 17 inch screens. PowerMacs are the higher end computers for power users.

G3's are the older motorola proccessors, G4's were the next generation motorola proccessors, G5's are the current state-of-art proccessors from IBM.

Some G3's are too old to run OS X, which is the current fancy OS that people find so sexy. So do some research if your bidding on stuff from Ebay.

 

[Cadaver]

Assuming you want to learn about MacOS X (no point really in learning anything about the older OSs), consider picking up a magazine or a book at your local Borders, Barnes & Noble, etc (assuming you're in the US).

MacOS X is the BSD-Unix based OS that has been getting the attention lately. It requires a PowerPC-based Mac to run (can't run it on anything else), and must be based on a Motorola/IBM PPC750 ("G3"), Motorola PPC74xx ("G4") or IBM PPC970 ("G5") - older PowerPC processors need not apply (PPC601, 603, 604). Essentially, any Mac with built-in USB ports made since the original Bondi blue iMac will run MacOS X.

There have been several versions - 10.0, 10.1, 10.2 "Jaguar" and the current 10.3 "Panther". If you're going to play with one, I'd suggest using 10.3 "Panther", or at the very least 10.2 "Jaguar". Don't bother with older versions, if you can even find any Macs running them. 10.2 and 10.3 are the most feature-complete versions.

Be aware that, in my opinion, MacOS X has some pretty steep RAM requirements. While it'll boot on 256MB, I wouldn't even try doing anything real on a machine with less than 512MB. And it'll do even better with 768MB and up.

Most desktop G4-based Macs will support between 1.5GB and 2.0GB depending on the motherboard revision. The G5 machines will handle up to 8GB (via 1GB Dimms). Word is they will also support 16GB total when the apporopriate 2GB Dimms are available.

The interesting thing about MacOS X is the inclusion of many open source technologies, such as Apache for web serving, SSH for remote terminal access, and X11 for apps like The Gimp and OpenOffice.org.

I use both MacOS X 10.3 and WindowsXP at home and at work, and they both have strengths and weaknesses. OS X is a very nice OS, and does what it does very well.

 

[Wahsapa]

i have a g4 cube(yes i know). what exactly are you looking to learn about mac os x? and yes if any mac os should be purchased it should be 10.3 'Panther'

BTW the cube (im on right now) only has 192 mb of ram and is perfectly fine for everyday tasks (web/mail/mp3s).

 

[Yohhan]

Thanks! That's enough to get me started.

 

[Spleeze]

Originally posted by: drag

Sometimes they have eMacs which are the plasticy computers that have the CRT and computer part as one big peice. Imacs are the ones with the LCD screen attached to a base by a adjustable arm and the base houses the computer.

Just to let you know, you're facts are a bit wrong here.

The Origional iMacs were the ones that had the bubbly case, computer and the crt all as one part. The eMac was a special "education" Mac released for schools that had a flat CRT as opposed to a normal rounded CRT but the same formfactor as the earlier iMacs, although not as colorful (and i think better looking.) Those crazy Macs with the lcd on a swinging arm is the new revised iMac.

http://www.apple.com/emac/

http://www.apple.com/imac/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2893041.stm (Classic iMac)

By the way, I am in no way shape or form a Mac fan. I think they are horrible, and i know from experience. Just trying to clear things up for the poster. I still think you're an awesome person Drag

 

[LtPage1]

calling macs "horrible" proves that you dont know what youre talking about, spleeze.
go try out a brand new imac, powerbook, or g5 somewhere. hell, try out anything apple makes. there is nothing horrible about it- OS X is so superior to windows, its not even funny. however, it is of course a completely different audience: people who dont want any computing hassles and are willing to pay a bit more for it. personally, i cant do without my macs, but ill probably always have a windows box, simply because i enjoy messing around with computers when stuff goes wrong. also, because gaming is way cheaper than on the mac.

 

[Spleeze]

Originally posted by: LtPage1
calling macs "horrible" proves that you dont know what youre talking about, spleeze.
go try out a brand new imac, powerbook, or g5 somewhere. hell, try out anything apple makes. there is nothing horrible about it- OS X is so superior to windows, its not even funny. however, it is of course a completely different audience: people who dont want any computing hassles and are willing to pay a bit more for it. personally, i cant do without my macs, but ill probably always have a windows box, simply because i enjoy messing around with computers when stuff goes wrong. also, because gaming is way cheaper than on the mac.

Just so you know, this is neither the time nor the place for trolling. However, I worked with OS X, I worked with quicksilver G4's. Aren't they supposed to be good? My computer would freeze at least 2 times a day. It would just lock. And nothing would respond, I usually had to pull the plug from the back and restart the whole thing. All I know is my XP computer doesn't do that. Furthermore, at my current school we have several new iMacs in the labs along with the Dells. These computers take 10-15 min to log on to the network(no exaggertion) and then there is no way to access our network drive. It takes the XP computers a minute tops to log in and then we can actually use our resources. The iMacs always sit unused while the PCs are full. So I have had much more of a hassle with OS X as opposed to any other OS. Also if you think gaming is cheaper on a Mac I would like you to explain how? (Macs and cheap never go together in a sentence by the way) Is it because they use horribly outdated videocards? Or is it because there are 2 games that actually get ported to OS X, Gaming on a Mac is a joke.

I was trying to clear up the iMac eMac mess just to help someone out, but i made sure to say what i thought about Macs because I would NEVER want anyone to think that I am some crazy Mac-Head who passes out at the thought of a "Mac Store" opening so I can buy a new iPod.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Sounds like admin errors to me. My Mac locks up on occassion, but not often. And never when I'm not maxing out one part ofthe hardware or another.

10-15 minutes to login using AD or Apple's LDAP authentication?

SMB and CIFs (are these the same thing? ) support are built into Mac OS X 10.2+ I believe.

Gaming on a Mac is a joke.

I'm not a Mac head, but I occassionally play one on AT.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: Spleeze

Originally posted by: LtPage1
calling macs "horrible" proves that you dont know what youre talking about, spleeze.
go try out a brand new imac, powerbook, or g5 somewhere. hell, try out anything apple makes. there is nothing horrible about it- OS X is so superior to windows, its not even funny. however, it is of course a completely different audience: people who dont want any computing hassles and are willing to pay a bit more for it. personally, i cant do without my macs, but ill probably always have a windows box, simply because i enjoy messing around with computers when stuff goes wrong. also, because gaming is way cheaper than on the mac.

Just so you know, this is neither the time nor the place for trolling. However, I worked with OS X, I worked with quicksilver G4's. Aren't they supposed to be good? My computer would freeze at least 2 times a day. It would just lock. And nothing would respond, I usually had to pull the plug from the back and restart the whole thing. All I know is my XP computer doesn't do that. Furthermore, at my current school we have several new iMacs in the labs along with the Dells. These computers take 10-15 min to log on to the network(no exaggertion) and then there is no way to access our network drive. It takes the XP computers a minute tops to log in and then we can actually use our resources. The iMacs always sit unused while the PCs are full. So I have had much more of a hassle with OS X as opposed to any other OS. Also if you think gaming is cheaper on a Mac I would like you to explain how? (Macs and cheap never go together in a sentence by the way) Is it because they use horribly outdated videocards? Or is it because there are 2 games that actually get ported to OS X, Gaming on a Mac is a joke.

I was trying to clear up the iMac eMac mess just to help someone out, but i made sure to say what i thought about Macs because I would NEVER want anyone to think that I am some crazy Mac-Head who passes out at the thought of a "Mac Store" opening so I can buy a new iPod.

The first issue with it locking up is almost certain to have been caused by errors on the harddrive itself. Or a permission problem.

Often people run OS 9 on the same partition as their OS X and although they can coexists it's not a good idea. Both OSes have radicly different ways of handling files and OS 9 can pull a bad number on OS X. Also a number (majority of them actually it seems like) of third party applications do not follow apple's requirements concerning file system permission changes and this can cause issues from install programs. I noticed that high end graphic programs like Illistrator can cause bad things, a permission repair fixes this sort of problem.

A boot up with the install cdrom and a filesystem repair followed by a permission repair would have about a 75% chance of clearing that up.

Although macs can run into problems like that, it's not perminate issue and usaully can be cleared up. The HFS+ filesystem is fragile and combined with the Unix's nature of continiously reading and writing with the harddrive can cause bad things especially if people do not go thru proper shutdown methods. (not that I am blaming you, it's just my personal experiance)

With the networking login problem that is more then likely caused by lack of experiance configuring and settiing up macs in a network combined with windows servers ability only to work well with other windows clients (assuming that you have w2k server running it.)

My experiances with Mac/Windows networking is not a good one. Things are happening in both OSes that most admins have no idea are going on and never have to normally deal with.

With the lab that I helped out with it was exactly the oppisite occured. The students staked out a Mac and stuck with it. They only used the Windows computers when they had to.

And thats with a lot of the Macs with single 500mhz proccessors vs the windows-based dell workstations with dual 1.8ghz cpu's. (used them for 3d rendering mostly)

The main reason was that on the Mac when people didn't know what to do you just showed them and they went "Oh, ok". You'd sit and watch them go thru the steps a couple times and you left.

On the windows computers you would end up showing then 2-3 times and next week they would ask again and then that time I would just have to make sure that they took notes.

Of course each situation is different. The majority of people there were artists and if they did own a computer it was just as like to be running dos or Win95 as it was to be a modern computer running Window XP or a Mac.

i am guessing that the majority people at your lab were probably had windows computers at home and were used to them.

 

[Spleeze]

Originally posted by: drag
The first issue with it locking up is almost certain to have been caused by errors on the harddrive itself. Or a permission problem.

Often people run OS 9 on the same partition as their OS X and although they can coexists it's not a good idea. Both OSes have radicly different ways of handling files and OS 9 can pull a bad number on OS X. Also a number (majority of them actually it seems like) of third party applications do not follow apple's requirements concerning file system permission changes and this can cause issues from install programs. I noticed that high end graphic programs like Illistrator can cause bad things, a permission repair fixes this sort of problem.

A boot up with the install cdrom and a filesystem repair followed by a permission repair would have about a 75% chance of clearing that up.

Although macs can run into problems like that, it's not perminate issue and usaully can be cleared up. The HFS+ filesystem is fragile and combined with the Unix's nature of continiously reading and writing with the harddrive can cause bad things especially if people do not go thru proper shutdown methods. (not that I am blaming you, it's just my personal experiance)

With the networking login problem that is more then likely caused by lack of experiance configuring and settiing up macs in a network combined with windows servers ability only to work well with other windows clients (assuming that you have w2k server running it.)

My experiances with Mac/Windows networking is not a good one. Things are happening in both OSes that most admins have no idea are going on and never have to normally deal with.

With the lab that I helped out with it was exactly the oppisite occured. The students staked out a Mac and stuck with it. They only used the Windows computers when they had to.

And thats with a lot of the Macs with single 500mhz proccessors vs the windows-based dell workstations with dual 1.8ghz cpu's. (used them for 3d rendering mostly)

The main reason was that on the Mac when people didn't know what to do you just showed them and they went "Oh, ok". You'd sit and watch them go thru the steps a couple times and you left.

On the windows computers you would end up showing then 2-3 times and next week they would ask again and then that time I would just have to make sure that they took notes.

Of course each situation is different. The majority of people there were artists and if they did own a computer it was just as like to be running dos or Win95 as it was to be a modern computer running Window XP or a Mac.

i am guessing that the majority people at your lab were probably had windows computers at home and were used to them.

Well, my issues with the quicksilver g4's cannot be explained away as just a hard-drive error (even if that was the case) because when you pay a premium for a Mac and it's supposed rock solid OS X you want it to work. I would end up doing the same work on my athlon tbird 900 mhz and get done with no errors/lockups at all. I'm sorry, but when you said that you said that high end graphics programs like Illustrator can cause those issues I chuckled. Aren't Macs MADE for that stuff? Aren't they for designing?

And the networking issue, that's at my current school (where I attend) and I believe they have windows or linux servers, most likely windows. It's all Novell if that helps. Either way, the fact remains that the XP boxes work and the OS X boxes are slugs that don't let me access my network drive. I mean come on, if a Mac is so user friendly you'd think my school's network admins could set them up right.

When the day is done, all you have when you buy a Mac is a kickass looking case (for the most part, some are ugly, the origional G4's front is gross IMO, The Quicksilvers look cool) with a slow computer jammed inside, running an OS that is every bit as flaky as XP but not nearly as universal or compatable and a whole lot less money in your pocket.

Yohhan, My advise to you:
Save money, upgrade your PC, or if you wanna learn about a new OS, DL some crazy Linux distro and monkey with that, Mandrake is cool for starting. As for Macs, They're not worth your time or money.

 

[LtPage1]

actually, i said gaming was cheaper on the pc. and no, gaming on the mac is not a joke- just a bit slower unless youve got a g5, and a lot more expensive.

well- i dunno what to tell you about the bad experiences youve had with macs. ive got a quiksilver and a new imac, and they run great for me. theyre not for everyone, ill freely admit- if youre happy with windows, fine! i completely understand- like i said, im having a lot of fun with this pc since i added it to my household.

 

[drag]

Well, my issues with the quicksilver g4's cannot be explained away as just a hard-drive error (even if that was the case) because when you pay a premium for a Mac and it's supposed rock solid OS X you want it to work. I would end up doing the same work on my athlon tbird 900 mhz and get done with no errors/lockups at all. I'm sorry, but when you said that you said that high end graphics programs like Illustrator can cause those issues I chuckled. Aren't Macs MADE for that stuff? Aren't they for designing?

Sure. Nothing is perfect, the harddrive stuff just takes 10minutes to fix and then the issue would of been over.

Were I worked for a while they had older G4's. The 500mhz stuff. Upgraded from OS (?) to OS 9, to OS 9.2, to OS 10.1, to OS 10.2. Always on the original drive, they never were formatted, just upgraded from one OS to another. They were used by artists with little to no real computer usage and they were used as administrator accounts. People moved system files, deleted odd things, moved things around and used the power strip as the shut off button.

Macs are weird to work with if your used to Windows, very frustrating. It takes a while to adjust to the different mentality of how to fix things when they break. Windows world you fight the OS, you hack the registry or format or clean out files and whatnot to try to fix things, in Mac world you fix things like magic. You wave the mouse around, go thru the motions of click here and click there. Lots of times it never makes any sense but it usually works.

And the networking issue, that's at my current school (where I attend) and I believe they have windows or linux servers, most likely windows. It's all Novell if that helps. Either way, the fact remains that the XP boxes work and the OS X boxes are slugs that don't let me access my network drive. I mean come on, if a Mac is so user friendly you'd think my school's network admins could set them up right.

It doesn't matter. If a person doesn't know what they are doing they can fvck up something as simple as a brick. A slick interface will never replace the ability to solve problems and find solutions. Plenty of people can get Macs to work just fine with network shares, wether they are from Windows, Linux, or other Macs.

When the day is done, all you have when you buy a Mac is a kickass looking case (for the most part, some are ugly, the origional G4's front is gross IMO, The Quicksilvers look cool) with a slow computer jammed inside, running an OS that is every bit as flaky as XP but not nearly as universal or compatable and a whole lot less money in your pocket.

Windows is only universal and compatable with Windows. Anything else you run into road blocks right away.

 

[addragyn]

http://www.apple.com/macosx/

 

[manly]

Originally posted by: Spleeze

Originally posted by: LtPage1
calling macs "horrible" proves that you dont know what youre talking about, spleeze.
go try out a brand new imac, powerbook, or g5 somewhere. hell, try out anything apple makes. there is nothing horrible about it- OS X is so superior to windows, its not even funny. however, it is of course a completely different audience: people who dont want any computing hassles and are willing to pay a bit more for it. personally, i cant do without my macs, but ill probably always have a windows box, simply because i enjoy messing around with computers when stuff goes wrong. also, because gaming is way cheaper than on the mac.

Just so you know, this is neither the time nor the place for trolling. However, I worked with OS X, I worked with quicksilver G4's. Aren't they supposed to be good? My computer would freeze at least 2 times a day. It would just lock. And nothing would respond, I usually had to pull the plug from the back and restart the whole thing. All I know is my XP computer doesn't do that. Furthermore, at my current school we have several new iMacs in the labs along with the Dells. These computers take 10-15 min to log on to the network(no exaggertion) and then there is no way to access our network drive. It takes the XP computers a minute tops to log in and then we can actually use our resources. The iMacs always sit unused while the PCs are full. So I have had much more of a hassle with OS X as opposed to any other OS. Also if you think gaming is cheaper on a Mac I would like you to explain how? (Macs and cheap never go together in a sentence by the way) Is it because they use horribly outdated videocards? Or is it because there are 2 games that actually get ported to OS X, Gaming on a Mac is a joke.

I was trying to clear up the iMac eMac mess just to help someone out, but i made sure to say what i thought about Macs because I would NEVER want anyone to think that I am some crazy Mac-Head who passes out at the thought of a "Mac Store" opening so I can buy a new iPod.

Apparently you could re-take reading comprehension at your school.

 

[Spleeze]

Lt. Page: Gaiming on a Mac is a Joke. Most games never make thier way to Mac, it's just a fact. Windows is the only viable platform for gaming. End of Story. Sorry about misunderstanding you about what you were saying, I read these things late at night.

Drag: When I say the XP box would be more universal, It's true, because if you go to any software store 95% of the software will be Windows, 4%Mac and 1%some linux distros. Windows is not a supremely compatable OS, it's just the standard by which things are made. Drivers for products come out much more frequently for Windows rather than linux, OS X etc. Thats what i meant by universal.

Manly: dude sign me up! That sounds like a cool class!