Question: I'm sleeving my PSU cables and...?

[cybercelt]

This is the first time, I've done this. I've paid close attention to reconnecting my four pin connectors, and after a first sloppy trial, the second cable was much easier. My concern was over the two middle black wires. There was no way I could get the shrink wrap around the female plugs by keeping them together.


Here are my questions.

1. Does each black wire (on the four pin connectors) have a distinct slot, or will any one of the the two middle slots do?

2. For each connector, does it matter if the black wires are not connected to the same plug as the next connector? Or should every wire (I know this is true for the yellow and red) be connected to the same plug as the coresponding plugs on a cable?


Hope this makes sense, I've only done two, so I can possibly go back and make corrections.

 

[amdskip]

I'm not sure but I always keep them lined up just like they came from the factory.

 

[OulOat]

Each black line is supposed to pair up with one of the other lines, so the black closest to the 5V line is supposed to be the 5V ground. Now, how much does that matter, I'm not sure. Taking a wild guess, it probably won't matter unless you have an extremely cheap PSU or have a lot of devices connected.

 

[Buz2b]

Do not switch the wires in any way or you could fry something expensive. Maximum PC mag did a feature on doing just this sort of project and that is one of the biggest things they stressed. Keep things EXACTLY as they were.

 

[ChefJoe]

Ever see the return signals (- voltages) listed in motherboard monitor ? that leads me to believe that you really shouldn't switch the ground. I'm going to do this to an antec psu I just got, my plan is to use scotch tape to tape the + and appropriate ground rails together before extracting from the plug.

 

[sparkyclarky]

Mark the wires with a piece of tape, draw diagrams of where everything goes, then sleeve. That's what I did and it works like a charm.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Basically what can happen here is a short in a sense. You will basically be applying 12v into the 5v system, thus allowing for a jump in the overall voltage on the 5v lines and fry some expensive electronics in the process... so, mark each wire before you remove them

 

[Hazer]

I completely disagree. I recently raped an old PSU for parts, and guess what I found? All of the black wires were tied to the same exact trace-pad on the PSU board. No resistence means no deviance for potential.

But different PSUs could have something different. To make sure, just use a multimeter to test for resistence between the two wires.

On another note, one thing that might be a problem is noise. If any of your devices send small AC noise signals back across thew ground wires, then you dont want the wires ties up anywhere but the PSU. If the noise only gets sent back to the PSU, thats not a problem. But if the wires are tied at say the connector to your HDD, the noise would sink there instead. Would this cuase a problem? Highly unlikely.


BTW: for you people not paying attention: He was asking does it really matter if the BLACK wires go into exactly the same slots, or can they be switched around (just the balck wires, which there are 2 of). As long as there is NO resistance between the 2 wires, there is no risk of shortage/noise/or anything else. The negative voltage lines are only part of the 20 pin ATX connector, and the Molex 4 pin power connectors are not part of this line. Maximum PC mag was reffering to people who may end up putting a 5V line in the wrong place. Not the same issue.

Again: If there is no resistence between pin2 and pin3 on your Molex connector, then there is no risk by switching/crossing them. If there is resistence, then you do need to make sure the lines are kept seperate.

 

[Buz2b]

BTW: for you people not paying attention: He was asking does it really matter if the BLACK wires go into exactly the same slots, or can they be switched around (just the black wires, which there are 2 of). As long as there is NO resistance between the 2 wires, there is no risk of shortage/noise/or anything else. The negative voltage lines are only part of the 20 pin ATX connector, and the Molex 4 pin power connectors are not part of this line

BTW, for those people not paying attention, it does not sound like, nor did he claim to have a great deal of electrical knowledge. Not everyone has a multimeter, much less the knowledge to use one, either. Those of us that paid attention answered the question as it was offered; as an average user with limited electrical experience with concerns about switching wires on his PSU connectors. Here are his exact questions. Please note the part in bold print:

Here are my questions.
1. Does each black wire (on the four pin connectors) have a distinct slot, or will any one of the two middle slots do?
2. For each connector, does it matter if the black wires are not connected to the same plug as the next connector? or should every wire (I know this is true for the yellow and red) be connected to the same plug as the corresponding plugs on a cable?

Hope this makes sense, I've only done two, so I can possibly go back and make corrections.

Sounds like an area ripe for confusion or mistakes. Best bet for almost all average users NOT to mess with or change the configuration of ANY of the wiring on the PS cabling. Also, the article I referred to made it very clear that ALL wiring be marked and even the plugs themselves marked so as not to confuse or mix up ANY of the wires/connectors. It did not specify black, red, yellow, etc.
Look, you may be comfortable in your knowledge in this area but clearly he was not. Otherwise the question wouldn't have been posted. It is pretty well accepted that in almost all instances such as these it is much better/wiser to err on the side of caution. It takes little time to label one or two extra wires/plugs when doing this type of mod. Well worth it when considering the consequences of not doing so. I'm sure you would agree with that.

 

[Hazer]

Yup. Reread my post, and I can see where the tone of arrogance can be read. Wasn't meant to be.

From his 2 questions, I understood exactly what he was asking. I also read that what he was asking was perfectly clear to him.

cybercelt:

1. Does each black wire (on the four pin connectors) have a distinct slot, or will any one of the the two middle slots do?

The question clearly states that the 2 black wires which are the only wires are the ones in the middle, can they be interchanged by accident without worry?

cybercelt:

2. For each connector, does it matter if the black wires are not connected to the same plug as the next connector? Or should every wire (I know this is true for the yellow and red) be connected to the same plug as the coresponding plugs on a cable?

This question shows me he definately knows about the red and yellow wires. But clearly asks not only does the first question apply, but for following connectors down the line would this be a problem?

Hazer:

BTW: for you people not paying attention: He was asking does it really matter if the BLACK wires go into exactly the same slots, or can they be switched around (just the balck wires, which there are 2 of).

Not meant to sound anything other than enlightening, since I was opposing everyone elses opinion.

IE-
OUloat:

Each black line is supposed to pair up with one of the other lines, so the black closest to the 5V line is supposed to be the 5V ground.

Buz2B:

Do not switch the wires in any way or you could fry something expensive.

ChefJoe:

Ever see the return signals (- voltages) listed in motherboard monitor ? that leads me to believe that you really shouldn't switch the ground.

Fallen Kell:

Basically what can happen here is a short in a sense. You will basically be applying 12v into the 5v system, thus allowing for a jump in the overall voltage on the 5v lines and fry some expensive electronics in the process.

Most PSU have thier grounds tied. I have not come across one yet that didnt. But there can always be one that keeps them seperate for some reason. Everyone was saying "No, you cant." when I knew the answer was most likely "Yes, you can, but to make sure, just use/find/borrow a multimeter and make sure".

Again, I didn't mean to make it sound bad. It just appeared to me that everyone that was saying "Dont do it" didn't really understand exactly what he was asking.

 

[cybercelt]

....soooo...I'm assuming my psu is trashed then? Because there's no marking on the black wires to differentiate them.

I've only done the two. The P4 cable is small enough that I don't need to take it apart to cable, and the MB cable came sleeved.

Looking at the wires as they exit the psu, they all appear grouped together by color, and that the manufacturer grabbed two blacks, a yellow and a red and made 4 pin connectors.

I know about the yellow and the red. It's the two blacks I'm confused about, and admitting no electrical experience, I assume a ground is a ground unless marked.

So the first question is a) is a ground a ground? or is each ground special, the manual has the peripheral and floppy connector as such:

Color: Signal: Pin:
Yellow 12VDC 1
Black Com 2
Black Com 3
Red 5VDC 4


now my second question is this, in the peripheral cable such as this

_________[]_____________[]________________<>
4 pin connector 4 pin connector floppy

should each black wire in the preceding connector be connected to the exact plug as the next connector.


So if a) the grounds are special then I've screwed up my psu, if b) is true, then I can go back and correct that.

Thanks for the tips for making the wires (duoh! shpoulda thought of that), and the help so far.

 

[OulOat]

Originally posted by: cybercelt
....soooo...I'm assuming my psu is trashed then? Because there's no marking on the black wires to differentiate them.

I've only done the two. The P4 cable is small enough that I don't need to take it apart to cable, and the MB cable came sleeved.

Looking at the wires as they exit the psu, they all appear grouped together by color, and that the manufacturer grabbed two blacks, a yellow and a red and made 4 pin connectors.

I know about the yellow and the red. It's the two blacks I'm confused about, and admitting no electrical experience, I assume a ground is a ground unless marked.

So the first question is a) is a ground a ground? or is each ground special, the manual has the peripheral and floppy connector as such:

Color: Signal: Pin:
Yellow 12VDC 1
Black Com 2
Black Com 3
Red 5VDC 4


now my second question is this, in the peripheral cable such as this

_________[]_____________[]________________<>
4 pin connector 4 pin connector floppy

should each black wire in the preceding connector be connected to the exact plug as the next connector.


So if a) the grounds are special then I've screwed up my psu, if b) is true, then I can go back and correct that.

Thanks for the tips for making the wires (duoh! shpoulda thought of that), and the help so far.

Read Hazer posts, read them again if you already did. The answer to both your questions is it probably won't matter, but you should stay on the side of caution. I dunno what you mean your PSU is screwed up, in the worse case scenerio you would have to open your PSU to trace the lines.

 

[Buz2b]

Hazer & OulOat
First, I think it is clear that cybercelt does not have the knowledge needed to get himself out of this right now. It is as I mentioned earlier. (BTW, cybercelt, that is in no way meant to demean you, so please don't take it as such. We all get ourselves in "jams" once in awhile). This is further evidenced by the fact that, unfortunately, the lines were not marked prior to disassembly. This should not have been attempted without further research, hence my first post/warnings.

However, some confusion/mixup probably has occurred and in light of that (and since you two seem to have more electrical knowledge than the "average bear") I think it would be wise if you could explain, in detail precisely what he needs to do to check his modifications thus far, so as to further eliminate the possibility of damaging his system.

I dunno what you mean your PSU is screwed up,

What he means is that if there is a possibility that the PS is going to fry something expensive in it's present state, then he is unwilling to use it. I too would be a bit dubious without further assurances. Yes, I can muddle my way around a multimeter a bit but not everyone can. As far as tracing his lines, he would have to know what to look for first. That is part of what you need to provide for him, if you can.
If not, then maybe it would be best if he had a shop test it, unless he has a friend with a multimeter, the knowledge to use it and some expertise in these things.

The answer to both your questions is it probably won't matter,

Respectfully, "probably" wouldn't be good enough if I had a lot of expensive equipment riding on this. Maybe it isn't for him either. Time will tell.

 

[OulOat]

BLAH. Okay, being more specific, if you have only done two (I am assuming you are talking about molex connectors) and your diagram before shows 3 molex connectors, you should be able to figure out from the last molex connector which slot the grounds go. But, if you have already removed all the molex connectors, you are screwed without some electronics. Take this as a lesson learned or start learning about electronics, which is pretty easy if you have someone to teach you.

You can do what Buz2b suggested, take it to an electronics shop to be tested, but you can also do it informally at home. Since you are modding this comp, I'm assuming this either isn't your first comp or you have friends with good comp knowledge. In any case, you could probably obtain some old CD-ROMS or HDs. If so, you can do this to your mobo plug (I just used a paper clip) so that your psu will turn on without your mobo. This is unnecessary, since you said you didn't change the mobo plug, but just in case, do this mod. Then, starting with one old cdrom, keep increasing the number of peripherals till you run out of plugs. There, if everything runs okay, you are set.

Once again, I believe that it doesn't really matter what slot the ground wires are in. Now I found proof. Take a look at this sleeving tutorial at virtual hideout. This tutorial is what Frozen CPU links to in all of their sleeving pages. So you would figure if it was important where each ground wire go, they would mention it at least once in the article. Look at the pics too, they didn't tag any of the wires. Also, I'm here looking at my mobo manual and my peripherals, nowhere did they differentiate between the grounds.

 

[cybercelt]

No prob Buz, if I was an expert I wouldn't be asking stupid questions.

What's funny is that I haven't seen any of these issues mentioned in various "how to" guides I've come across on the net.

The good thing is I've only messed with two of three peripheral cables, so if it is meesed up, I'm risking a hard drive, and a dvd drive.

I know enough now by marking wires and being careful, not to mess up the remaining ones. Oh well trial and error learning can be expensive.

I did go back and fixed issue b. every wire is plugged into the same preceding connector slot.

 

[Buz2b]

cybercelt,
Glad to hear that you are back on track.

What's funny is that I haven't seen any of these issues mentioned in various "how to" guides I've come across on the net.

It seems the problem is that many sites assume that folks have the necessary knowledge to tackle the projects they write about. A good case in point is the article that OulOat pointed to at virtual hideout. Yes, as he states, they don't talk about marking the location of wires; ANY WIRES! We all know that this could lead to big problems but they are assuming again that you will put the wires back in their original place.
OulOat,
Thank you for posting back to try to help here. I would ask that you think about something though. The statement: So you would figure if it was important where each ground wire go, they would mention it at least once in the article. is actually the source of the problem. By not responsibly reminding folks about the importance of placing ALL wiring back in the correct locations, they are creating a potential for problems; just like we saw here. Going back to the similar article from Maximum PC (March 2003-page 56), What they say in the intro to the article is, "If you do not put the wires back exactly the way they were, the PS will probably catch fire. That's not a good thing." Now, of course we know that they are talking about the main current lines, are being a bit melodramatic and probably not referring to the grounds. However, if by chance cybercelt had seen that article first, he might not be in this situation. That is the one big difference between that article and the one at virtual hideout. They don't ASSUME that you know all that you need to know to do this. Thanks again for your help. Hopefully others may see this and learn a bit from all of us.

 

[cybercelt]

Originally posted by: OulOat


You can do what Buz2b suggested, take it to an electronics shop to be tested, but you can also do it informally at home. Since you are modding this comp, I'm assuming this either isn't your first comp or you have friends with good comp knowledge. In any case, you could probably obtain some old CD-ROMS or HDs. If so, you can do this to your mobo plug (I just used a paper clip) so that your psu will turn on without your mobo. This is unnecessary, since you said you didn't change the mobo plug, but just in case, do this mod. Then, starting with one old cdrom, keep increasing the number of peripherals till you run out of plugs. There, if everything runs okay, you are set.

Actually I do have an old MB as well as old floppy and HD. Since this isn't hooked up to a cpu and monitor, how do I know the peripherals are working? Would it be simply that the items don't begin to burn, or would they not work at all?

Thanks again for the help guys, I know that this is very basic stuff, but I'm learning alot!

 

[cybercelt]

I think the PSU is dead. I hooked it up to an old motherboard and it didn't do anything. I also tried using a paper clip...nadda.



...sigh....

 

[Buz2b]

Originally posted by: cybercelt
I think the PSU is dead. I hooked it up to an old motherboard and it didn't do anything. I also tried using a paper clip...nadda.



...sigh....

Not necessarily grasshopper! The paper clip trick can be just that; tricky. And hooking the PS up to an "old motherboard" may not enable the PS to turn on. Some will turn on and just beep (that would be a good sign) if you don't have a cpu in them. Did you short the correct pins on the switch connections to "turn on" the board? What board was it (make and model)?
Don't give up yet.

 

[ChefJoe]

So you disconnected everything and shorted the green wire with a nearby black wire (any close black wire works)? Shorting those two wires will make a PSU turn on with nothing connected to it. If nothing comes on when you do that (nothing connected, PSU fan doesn't turn), then you've blown a fuse in your PSU or otherwise killed it (well, I it's possible you just have a burned out fan circuit, but extremely unlikely).

 

[cybercelt]

woohoo! I used piano wire and it started up fine. Connected the old cd drive to the first connector, it worked, however when I added an old HD to the second molex, the HD started smoking...

Not Good

 

[ChefJoe]

Smoking... not good. Do you have a multimeter ( to measure voltage, resistance, etc ? ). It sounds like you may have wired one of your connectors incorrectly. It would be a good idea to check the connectors (they're keyed to go one way) and the color of the wires in each position. Colors or measuring the voltage. Any further attempts to solve this require being able to check the resistance and voltage wiht a multimeter.

This isn't an antec truepower, is it? I've always been curious if their independent rails meant they don't ues a common ground.

 

[cybercelt]

It's an Enermax...

 

[KYDave]

hmm, I just recently built a new PC and put an Antec true430W psu in it. I put covers on the wires and when putting them back together I mistakenly switched the two black lines on one set of lines. (what I mean is that for one set of molex connectors in series they're all switched since I just kept them constant after I noticed I got the first one wrong)

I didn't check the resistance between the lines, but I think I'll do that, lol. I've had no problems with the PC and no smoking harddrives! I've got stuff plugged into most of the molex connectors so I definitely have stuff connected to ones with switched black lines.

I'm not sure if I answered any of your questions, but from what I can tell it probably doesn't matter if you switch them. You might want to try contacting the maker of your PSU to see what they say about it.

Dave

 

[OulOat]

If it started smoking then you have probably switch the positions of the yellow and red wires on that molex connector.