Question from Nvidia about StarCraft II AA.

[Keysplayr]

"NVIDIA's override anti-aliasing for StarCraft 2 applies AA to the entire scene, including HUD elements. Do you believe AA improves image quality on the StarCraft 2 HUD elements, or would you prefer it was only applied to the non-HUD elements (which would increase frame rates)?"

 

[Qbah]

I don't have an nVidia card, but the thing that makes AA so awesome for me is things don't look "floaty" with high AA during movement. The SC2 GUI doesn't have any moving parts (from what I can tell so far) and the only thing that bothers me are the lines and elements during scrolling and unit movements. So I don't really care for AA applied to the GUI, as long as the 3D elements get anti-aliasing.

However, some of the "videos" (like Raynor's AI) also experience severe aliasing (when you get a video message during gameplay for example). But since those are 3D elements and not really part of a 2D GUI (and not really prerendered either?), I guess it would also get the AA even if the other GUI element won't?

 

[Keysplayr]

snip -ViRGE

Actually, tincart, I think Nvidia is asking whether gamers care whether or not AA is applied to the entire scene in SC2 or if they could do without it being applied to the HUD in which case framerates would likely improve. But I guess it's going to depend on the general concensus.
I think it was a straightforward question. There is a very active thread about SC2 as I'm absolutely sure you've noticed. But the only thing this thread has in common with the other is that it' regarding SC2 and AA. That other thread however, covers a different aspect.

 

[MJinZ]

Actually, tincart, I think Nvidia is asking whether gamers care whether or not AA is applied to the entire scene in SC2 or if they could do without it being applied to the HUD in which case framerates would likely improve. But I guess it's going to depend on the general concensus.
I think it was a straightforward question. There is a very active thread about SC2 as I'm absolutely sure you've noticed. But the only thing this thread has in common with the other is that it' regarding SC2 and AA. That other thread however, covers a different aspect.

I haven't had a chance to install SC2 yet, but knowing that it takes basically at minimum my GTX 480 to run with forced 4x AA, I think the answer is that it would be wise to issue a forced AA mode for users of 200 series cards to sacrifice some HUD AA for unit AA so they can actually make use of this without cutting their frames in half.

 

[tviceman]

Snip -ViRGE

Sorry Keys, I don't own Starcraft 2 but I would imagine that AA is much more important on animation, as opposed to something static like the GUI / HUD.

 

[Keysplayr]

@MJinz: GTX 460 768 shows average fps at around 55 at 19x12 4xAA. The 460 1GB is a tad higher at 67 fps average. GTX 480 will have Zero trouble.

@Tviceman:
I would agree that lack of AA on a static object like the HUD would not be anywhere near as distracting as the creepy crawlies on moving action content.
So far it looks like no AA on the HUD is acceptable. I'd like to hear from more members.

Guys, just ignore the troll posts and crapping. They'll get bored having a conversation with themselves.
;thumbsup:

 

[Wreckage]

I don't have the game yet (darn expensive at launch). Can someone post screenshots maybe?

 

[ViRGE]

Keys may not be able to moderate this thread, but I sure can. Cut the crap and stick to the question or I will start handing out bans. At this point this has moved beyond ridiculous.

-ViRGE

 

[Petey!]

Yeah my 470 can handle 4xAA just fine. I get boatloads of fps. I think I actually have it running at 16x, I'll have to go check.

 

[Seero]

AA only matters on 2 areas, playback and scenes. As for playbacks, it is true that you can see the difference if you put to images side by side. Otherwise, unless your v-card is 470 or above, the AA is big enough to drop to a point that you may see mini lags as you scroll through the map or big battles. During realtime action, the effects of AA is way too small to be detected IMO.

Let say 200+ lings (zerggings), each is less than 60x60 pixels on the screen, are dashing to your base, what will you do?

a) turn AA on.
b) turn AA off.
c) put your face to the monitor and see if you detect any aliasing on each of those lings.
d) turn music really loud to block all other sounds not coming from the game. Throw out anything that makes sound through the loud music out of the window excluding parents, wives, pets and kids. Start coordinating your hands, brain, and eyes as fast as humanly possible to defend your base.

Shall you run into lags, what will you do?

a) turn off AA.
b) get on varies forum and start QQ about AA on UIs.
c) go to the nearest store and buy whatever needed to get ride of the lag.

Scenes on the other hand is the big one as you can see aliasing easily, but it doesn't have UI.

 

[waffleironhead]

Why not just code it in as a switch in nvcontrol panel? let each end user decide which is right for them.

 

[Seero]

Why not just code it in as a switch in nvcontrol panel? let each end user decide which is right for them.

Can't be done. To execute AA at driver level, either SSAA the whole scene, or not at all. At game level though, AA can be done on selected objects before sending them through Dx9 API. However, the API that is responsible for deferred shading allow mix of AA and non-AA objects.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Scali]

There is no API for 'deferred shading'.
Pet peeve of mine that people think that coding a 3D engine is just calling API function X to get effect X.
Don't know how to even begin explaining it.
But deferred shading is a rendering technique, you IMPLEMENT it, it's not an effect, nor an API call. You write code.

 

[ebolamonkey3]

What's the difference in fps when HUD is rendered w/ AA vs when it's not? I'd imagine that it wouldn't be much at all, but I could be wrong.

 

[Seero]

There is no API for 'deferred shading'.
Pet peeve of mine that people think that coding a 3D engine is just calling API function X to get effect X.
Don't know how to even begin explaining it.
But deferred shading is a rendering technique, you IMPLEMENT it, it's not an effect, nor an API call. You write code.

Technically speaking, you are right. However, to execute this rendering technique, you need API from Dx9, and there are no technique that can possibly be derived to allow MSAA be done with this rendering technique.

In other words, there are no standard ways to allow AA with deferred shading. However, standard ways isn't the only ways. It is easy to say, but it requires lots of work, preparations and communications. And yes, I forgot to mention testing.

What's the difference in fps when HUD is rendered w/ AA vs when it's not? I'd imagine that it wouldn't be much at all, but I could be wrong.

Since the HUD is about 30-50% of the scene, so in theory the impact of AA can reduce by 30-50%.

 

[kami]

I am fine with the current implementation but I do not think the HUD needs it... so if you can score more FPS by not applying AA to the HUD I think it's a win.

However the one thing preventing me from using AA right now is the artifacts that show up in the campaign cinematics (and also on some shots on the Hyperion in between missions). It can be described as a vertical line or seam that goes down the middle of the screen (not always the middle), usually happens on shots of Raynor. Also during some of the cinematics the "seams" can get worse and sometimes form grid-like shapes on background elements (like a sky box).

When I disable AA (was using 4x AA) it disappears.

I don't see any artifacting during gameplay though. Using latest drivers.

 

[Scali]

Technically speaking, you are right. However, to execute this rendering technique, you need API from Dx9, and there are no technique that can possibly be derived to allow MSAA be done with this rendering technique.

No, I already covered this.
What you need is not an API, you need shader functionality. DX9-class hardware (SM3.0) simply doesn't have this functionality, hence it is not possible in DX9.
It's an anachronism.

 

[Seero]

No, I already covered this.
What you need is not an API, you need shader functionality. DX9-class hardware (SM3.0) simply doesn't have this functionality, hence it is not possible in DX9.
It's an anachronism.

Lol, fine fine, you are correct, you win.

 

[Seero]

I am fine with the current implementation but I do not think the HUD needs it... so if you can score more FPS by not applying AA to the HUD I think it's a win.

However the one thing preventing me from using AA right now is the artifacts that show up in the campaign cinematics (and also on some shots on the Hyperion in between missions). It can be described as a vertical line or seam that goes down the middle of the screen (not always the middle), usually happens on shots of Raynor. Also during some of the cinematics the "seams" can get worse and sometimes form grid-like shapes on background elements (like a sky box).

When I disable AA (was using 4x AA) it disappears.

I don't see any artifacting during gameplay though. Using latest drivers.

I SEE exactly what you have described. I don't think AA at driver level is a helping scenes at all. Note that those scene was not open to beta testers so it may not be as perfect as the game itself. As a temporary solution, it is okay, but as soon as people starts to create custom games, its cracks will start to show.

 

[Avalon]

Snip -ViRGE

Keys, I will post this question to my university's gaming club and try to get some responses back for you.

 

[Skunkwourk]

not sure if its a stupid question but would removing it from the HUD increase performance in game?

 

[Avalon]

Yes, performance would increase by not having to apply AA to the HUD.

 

[biostud]

Send me a copy of SCII and I can do an intensive study of the question

 

[Seero]

Send me a copy of SCII and I can do an intensive study of the question

I like the way you think.

 

[Keysplayr]

Snip -ViRGE

Keys, I will post this question to my university's gaming club and try to get some responses back for you.

Snip -ViRGE
Cool about asking your gaming club, thank you!