Question for people who believe in God (not like the other questions on God we've seen before, philosophical)

[tom3]

Athanasius
That was very good, it helped me to understand things a bit more deeply. Even though the part your quoted from Augustine is pretty hard to digest and understand.

 

[Mears]

<< Mears



<< if you believe in the Christian God, you believe in heaven and hell. To get into heaven you must work for it and be the best person you can possibly be. Your life on earth is a test >>



This statement cannot be more wrong. The basis of the Christian faith is that you CAN NOT work your way into heaven. No one can do good deeds and be &quot;good enough&quot; to enter heaven. Such a &quot;system&quot; may be what Catholics believe, but Christians do not believe in that.

Christians believe that there is ONLY ONE way to be saved, and it is through the salvation of Jesus. >>



Obviously the backbone behind every Christian denomination is salvation. I kinda left that out as a given. However, there is more to it than just being saved I believe. It is how you live you life after being saved, which was the point I was making. It is funny that you brought up catholicism on my views. I am not Catholic myself, but I was thinking that your view was more from a catholic viewpoint because it lacked anything about your actions after being saved, not that catholics don't believe in how you live your life after being saved. Don't flame me, but their beliefs on this matter are a little more leniant than other denominations. I guess we both left out something important

 

[tom3]

Mears,

It doesn't matter what you label it, be it Christian or otherwise, the truth is that you are saved and will go to heaven beacuse of one reason and one reason only, because Jesus payed your punishment for you and you accept his salvation. By accepting his salvation, you are acknowledging the fact that you are sinful, and you want to change, and you want Jesus to be in your life so that you may stand a chance of fighting your sinful nature.

How good you are and what you accomplish before and after your savlation has nothing to do with your salvation. Again you are saved solely because you accepted Jesus's salvation.


If I gave you the impression that one can be saved by accepting the salvation and live in whatever way he/she wants, then I did not communicate well enough. If you truly accept Christ, and submit to him, the Holy Spirit that resides in you changes you from the within. And you begin to live a better life. No on can be a Christian and claim credit for any good deed he/she does, nor should a Christian try to be good for the purpose of being worthy to be saved. The point is obedience, and submitting to God, and he will point things in our own lives out and help us to change it. Again I am totally not saying that this process is all God's work, there is much effort, more than we can ever put in, on our part to listen, obey, and actively attempt to better ourselves.


You are right, we may be debating for the same side. I agree with you wholeheartedly that living the life of a Christian is more than just having been saved. I meant to point out the common misconception which your earlier post expressed, and that is we and our good deeds contribute to why we are saved.

Again (for the Nth time i guess), no one works his/her way into heaven, no one can ever be good enough to enter heaven. There is only one way to be saved and it is through Jesus Christ the savior.

 

[tom3]

<< To get into heaven you must work for it and be the best person you can possibly be. Your life on earth is a test >>



To put it simply, if you life on earth is a test, you have failed, you were destined to fail from the beginning, and you will never ever pass. Jesus passed the test for you and if you accept his invitation, you can claim your place in heaven.

 

[Athanasius]

Mears:

With us, there is always the hope that we are wrong. For instance, in the example I gave, my wife, despite her superior knowledge, could be wrong. Trevor might actually fool her. I don't quite see it that way with God.

I guess I have to talk a little bit more about my musings on the nature of knowledge before I can get my point across. I think knowledge could span two poles: The &quot;pole&quot; of intuitive, abstract, foreknowledge and the &quot;pole&quot; of experiential, emotional, heartfelt knowledge. For us, we often think that we know what something would be like. Then we experience it, with all of its gut wrenching emotions, and both the knowledge that we thought we had and we ourselves actually change.

While I tend to think that God Himself does not change, I think that these &quot;poles of knowledge&quot; still exist in Him. So, there is the &quot;abstract pole&quot; of God's foreknowledge, which foresees all things perfectly. Then there is the &quot;experiential heartfelt pole&quot; of God's knowledge that craves a relationship with mankind.

Take the example of Abraham in the Bible. In Genesis 22, Abraham is told to sacrifice his son Isaac. When Abraham obeys volitionally (God stops the actual sacrifice), God says in Genesis 22:12 (paraphrased), &quot;Now I know that you love and reverence me, now I know that I am your Center.&quot;

But didn't God know before? Yes and no. God knew it intuitively, but He experienced heartfelt love at that unique point in time when Abraham obeyed in faith. And that point is unique, both for God and Abraham. God is probably not bound by time, so for God, perhaps that &quot;point&quot; of Abraham's obedience is an &quot;eternal now&quot;. Maybe God was waiting there for Abraham for all eternity. But it is still a unique point. Without Abraham's act of faith, that experiential moment doesn't exist.

What I am getting at is this: God is more interested in the &quot;heartfelt, experiential pole&quot; than He is the &quot;abstract, intuitive pole.&quot; God is Love. Therefore He is a God of the heart. Hence, God acts in a way that makes intimacy with Him possible even if His foreknowledge tells Him that I will never respond. God acts in such a way, not because He is unknowing or deluded about the eventual outcome, but because it is the loving thing to do. Therefore God does it, regardless of results. Because God actions are not based on external results but rather are totally generated from within His own Being, God is free.

We tend to love, if at all, only conditionally. We way the risks versus the rewards and then make a choice to love or not to love. In other words, we bow to externals and then love or don't love. God loves because He is Love. I believe that Christ would have done everything He did, even pouring his life out in a torturous death, even if no human would have ever turned back to God.

So, we hold out hope that exists because of our limited knowledge. God's hope isn't like that. God acts in a hopeful and a faithful way because it is the loving thing to do. Creatures fail, but love never fails.


<< Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trust, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. . .&quot; >>

(1 Corinthians 13:4-8a, NIV)

Am I rambling too much now?

 

[tom3]

Athanasius, you are not rambling too much. =)

I have never thought of God the way you described just now. I dont know whether I completely agree with it yet, but I do not disagree with it either. In fact it does explain some of the mysteries about God.

thanks

 

[bigben]

<< Bigben I agree with you, but I think it is still missing something. God still knows what we will do before we do it. Agreed? Therefore, we can do nothing but what God knows we will do, so we don't have the freedom of choice. How would you relate the existance outside of time to that? >>




God knows what we will do be he exists while we are doing it. When we say &quot;what we will do,&quot; in God's terms that is something that has already happened. God did not make it happen, he did not force you to whatever you did, he just knows what you are going to do because he saw it as it happened.

Let me try to put this more clearly: If you beleive that God is outside of This universe, then he is outside of our idea of time. This means that God sees all of the universe, Including our concept of time at the same time. Time means nothing to him becasue it happens all at once. No time passes for God because he exists at all times at the same time. When we think something is happening in time, it is really the same thing to God as something that happened millions of years ago.

 

[Athanasius]

tom3:

I don't know if I completely agree with it either. It's just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Mears]

bigben: Are you saying that since God is outside of time, everything that has ever happened God is going through right now over and over again? Sorry that I'm not picking up perfectly on this the first couple times through. Had a calc quiz today, this term paper to do over the weekend, microecomics exam on monday, and calc exam on Wed. My mind is going a million directions right now.

Athanasius: Wow, good example.

Thanks, both of you guys for the help thus far. It has really helped me form some ideas.

 

[I'm Typing]

Asking questions like that will surely result in our Almighty GOD casting you straight to HELL, you sinner!

You had better get on your knees and pray for Jesus to save your soul!

 

[Mears]

I in no way doubt any of God's intentions. I have to do this for a term paper.

 

[azazyel]

Evil does not exist...

 

[~zonker~]

&quot;evil exists today in two types natural evil&quot;

I've never considered acts of nature as acts of God. Blaming earthquakes and fires and hurricanes on God dosen't fit with my perception. Don't confuse Mother Nature with Father God. God set the world in motion, wrote the laws of physics so to speak. There are a few instances in the Biblical text of God altering the course of nature.

For that matter, the value of human life is fairly limited to God in my perception. You're given a soul and the opportunity to love God and let Him do good works through you. In the end, human death is really a reward to believers becuase you get to leave this evil world and be with Jesus. The apostle Paul expressed this sentiment as follows:

---------------

PHP 1:22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!
_23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;
_24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

----------------

 

[Watersnake]

your question will never be answered (untill and unless he himself comes and tells you). don't kill yourself trying to think abt such things.

 

[Mears]

~zonker~: The reason natural evil like hurricanes, fires and such can be associated with God is because he created this world. If he was all powerfull he could have created this world without them.

watersnake: I disagree with your statement and I have to think about this. If you want to avoid it, don't be foolish like me and listen to your advisor when they tell you to take an honors philosophy class as one of your social science requirements when you sign up for classes. I knew it was a bad idea then and I'm still kicking myself for it

 

[MustangSVT]

here's my question, what makes you think there is god?

 

[~zonker~]

Mears

But does nature have evil intent or desire? What is your definition of evil? Naturually tragic events can occur but nature has no will of its own, unlike man.

 

[AfterBurn]

2 questions to add to the confusion:

1) If God is all good and all love, where does the concept of 'hell' fit in. The two statements are contradicting.

2) Related, if Jezus died at the cross for our sins, past and future and gave us salvation and the Holy Spirit so we could enter Heaven, why do we need to seek salvation (or else..)? These two are contradicting too.

Why is man so good at inventing dogma's and forgetting the words and lessons that can be learned by simply reading?

 

[Underclocked]

&quot;Underclocked
You falsely accuse God of human sufferings. All human suffering is the result of sin, directly or indirectly, and not always the result of one's own sin. There are consequences of sin that are inevitable, that is the law of the universe God created. Just like the law of gravity says if I jumped off of a 20 story building, I will fall and die. Often times the consequence of one person or a group of people's wrong doings can affect others, can carry on for generations, or can exist permanently, affecting every person to come.&quot;

How is it a false accusation? Your God supposedly created this whole mess of existence as it is, gave us hormonol induced impulses we dare not follow, put fruit on the tree we dare not eat, and some 600 plus ridiculous commandments (as outlined I believe in Leviticus) which I doubt anyone living has EVER followed. He is the divine, all-knowing being outside of our universal laws yet he can do no better than CREATE a world and creatures within it to suffer torment and meet his own impossible tests? Is this his sense of humor in action or is he just perverse and mean? Would you treat your pet animal so cruelly, let alone a living entity resembling yourself?

Sorry I don't buy it at all. Such a god would not warrant the title. If there is an omnipotent master of the universe (which I seriously doubt) we have yet to encounter an accurate portrayal. You lay the glory at the feet of the responsible god and yet deny that he is also then responsible for the calamities and wrong-doings.
If this upsets you, let me just say the devil made me do this.
But no, I am typing these words. A brief life with a split second of existence in this world or any other. Why embrace fantasies when life itself is the glory? Think what amazing things must have taken place for each and every one of us to have drawn breath at all. And, YES, man is responsible for most of his own problems. We may be spending too much time answering the unanswerable with our imaginations rather than fighting the common foes of hunger, disease, and criminal behavior.
I don't believe in sin, but I do believe in behavior which is contrary to the interests of the society you live in and therefore your own well being. I also believe in the Golden Rule, what else is there?

When people get so hung up in their own RIGHTNESS about THE WAY THINGS ARE, they themselves easily become problems for us lesser beings.

 

[Mears]

Underclocked and MustangSVT: as soon as you can do what scientists have been trying to do for years, which is create life out of the elements in earth's early atmosphere, let me no ok.

Oh, and then after you do that would you mind PROVING how natural selection could evolve a prokaryote to a human being.

~zonker~: well since he created the laws of nature, it could be said that he is responsible for its actions.

afterburner: if you had a son or daughter whom you knew killed another individual, wouldn't you turn them into the authorities no matter how much it pained you to do so?

 

[~zonker~]

Underclocked;

Have you ever stopped to think that if you would follow the other 'most important rule', loving God, that you might be able to find 'love that surpasses knowledge' (EP 3:19), 'peace which transcends understanding'(PHP 4:7) and 'an inexpressible and glorious joy' (1PE 1:8) so that you may 'escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.'( 2PE 1:4)


Mears;

Is Winchester responsible for all the deaths caused by the firearms he invented?

 

[Balt]

MustangSVT,

please don't turn this into another theist v. athiest thread. As if there aren't enough of those already.


This deals just as much with logic and freedom of choice as it does with God. Also, if you'll note, the topic of this thread specifically says &quot;Question for people who believe in God&quot;

There are endless philosophies about whether or not there is a God, if you don't want to make a philosophical debate, please don't bother to post.

In addition, even if we don't believe in God, it is very wise to analyze philosophy regarding God's existence, so that we may form our beliefs based on something substantial.

 

[AfterBurn]

Mears: There is a difference between making sure they get a slap on the wrist and eternal hell and damnation. If i had a son or daughter that had murdered someone, id make sure he or she got that slap on the wrist by getting him or her to the proper authoroties, but id still love and take care of him or her as im his or her father. A loving father will not turn his back to his son or daughter. Thats why talk of eternal hell and damnation is contradicting with the love of God, and thus a man imposed dogma.

 

[MustangSVT]

Balt.

&quot;MustangSVT,
please don't turn this into another theist v. athiest thread. As if there aren't enough of those already. This deals just as much with logic and freedom of choice as it does with God. Also, if
you'll note, the topic of this thread specifically says &quot;Question for people who believe in God&quot;

----you are correct on this one, it was my mistake on that------

There are endless philosophies about whether or not there is a God, if you don't want to make a philosophical debate, please don't bother to post.

----yes on contrast your posts dealt greatly in philosophical debate----

In addition, even if we don't believe in God, it is very wise to analyze philosophy regarding God's existence, so that we may form our beliefs based on something substantial.

----Did philosophers prove the existence of GOD? dont even talk about anyone did as if that's true same example of &quot;Greatest Island&quot; (if u truely study the material) and for same reasons for god's existence this whole world can be made by some mad scientist's lab and you are just his creation where he created all the world just for u-------

I didnt want to stir anything, didnt read &quot;question for the ppl who believe in GOD&quot; part. so just igonore my post. It just strikes me odd that so many ppl would just believe in god without hesitation, maybe im the lost one, but when i ask someone to explain why, they either get very offencive or talk about bible quotes (but i dont believe in that to begin with). And those philo courses and MetaPhysics didnt show me much about that either.

I just wanted to know what made ppl to think there was god. If they were once a non-believer like me, then what turned them around. its a touchy subject, but either with god or without god both views are not perfect it seems. there must be something we are missing. (or i am, to be fair)

 

[themadmonk]

Evil - I don't think is innate but learned.