Question for people who believe in God (not like the other questions on God we've seen before, philosophical)

Mears

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Mar 9, 2000
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Ok, first I DO believe in God, but I have a question that I've had a huge problem answering. Ok, god is defined as being all knowing, all powerfull, and perfectly good. However, evil exists today in two types natural evil (fires, earthquakes, etc...) and moral evil (evil by humans). The question is, why would God create evil humans if they are creations of a perfectly good and powerfull God? Many attribute this him having given us free will to choose between right and wrong. However, if God knows everything that we will know before we do it, do we have free will to chose because we have no choice but to do what God knows we will do?

This may sound a little confusing, it is a very shortened exerpt of a famous philosphical question called the problem of evil.
 

bigben

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Jan 8, 2000
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God knows what you and I will do before we do it because God exists outside of this universe, meaning he exists outside of our concept of time. God is now, was before us, and will be forever the same being. He cannot learn anything new, nor can he forget anything. Thus, if he didn't know what we were gonna do next, he would not be an all knowing God, and he wouldn't be God at all.

Related to this is the idea that man's free will exists only because God gives us the power to have free will, but that is another topic entirely.
 

Teatowel

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Sep 22, 2000
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absolutely bigben, that is the right answer. You can think, and not be able to disprove, of a God in another dimension.

Hyperspace by Michio Koko, although a history of quantum physics textbook, goes into this matter.
 

Underclocked

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Must have a mean streak, huh? Knew little kids were going to suffer and die from all the terrible diseases and evil acts that he must have not only foreseen, but is responsible for entirely.
Hmmm, some god!

Give your 10% though boys and girls, he's a good'un and you'll get to live forever.
 

IBhacknU

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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<< God knows what you and I will do before we do it >>

You'll never get me to believe that my life is pre-determined, be it by god or anyone else.
 

Namuna

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Jun 20, 2000
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You've got things mixed-up.

Everything is based on an equal amount of positive and negative...Balance.

This Balance is 'God'. There is no 'Power' without there being weakness, no 'Perfect Good' without perfect evil. Who better to APPRECIATE the power and goodness of God than the person who is weak and has been through hell?

Everything else, what he does, what he knows is after the fact.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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bigben

Where you get that stuff from? Did somebody make it up somewhere to help explain things? Did God cmoe down and tell us this? Does the Bible say this succinctly without mincing words?
 

Mears

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Bigben I agree with you, but I think it is still missing something. God still knows what we will do before we do it. Agreed? Therefore, we can do nothing but what God knows we will do, so we don't have the freedom of choice. How would you relate the existance outside of time to that?
 

Mears

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Mar 9, 2000
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Underclocked, if you believe in the Christian God, you believe in heaven and hell. To get into heaven you must work for it and be the best person you can possibly be. Your life on earth is a test. If there was nothing evil to make you want to turn your back from God, it would be too easy. Sure you could say well why does it have to be children? Well if only old decripate people were succeptible to the evils of the world, would it affect you as much and allow you to overcome great adversity to worship him? Of course not.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
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Mears, just because God knows which choice we will freely make doesn't mean that we didn't choose freely. Yes, we can only do what he knows we would have done, but we would have done that because we freely chose to do it, not because it was what God knew we would do.

I find the Paradox of Omnipotence a much more challenging problem in Mackie's Problem of Evil. ;)
 

Mears

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Mar 9, 2000
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Balt, that is exactly what I believe. However, my prof. continually points to Pikes piece on this when I give him that idea. Especially since free will is defined as:

The power, attributed especially to human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Just because God knows doesn't mean it is our fate or divine will right? That is what I think. However, I really need to do good on this last term paper and I fear that if I go against my prof's beliefs I will pay for it. It's a real pitty, but I can't bring myself to argue against something like God.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
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We didn't cover Pike in my philosophy class, so I'm afraid I can't help you much in that regard.

<<Just because God knows doesn't mean it is our fate or divine will right? That is what I think.>>

That is what I believe too. Fortunately I have a young instructor for my philosophy class who is less set in his ways. He's more open to other ideas.

Of course, since my papers get graded by the TA's it doesn't matter much anyway.

But.. I do have this idea

<<The power, attributed especially to human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.>>

One could argue in that case that we don't have free will even without a god, because we always choose the choice that is most appealing to us (even if we don't know it).

This is hard to understand on the exterior level, because we might say something like &quot;well I take out my mother's trash, but that does nothing for me.&quot; That is true, but if you take out the trash it WAS the most desirable choice for you because you either didn't want to get in trouble or you wanted to make your mom happy more than you did want to get in trouble or not make your mom happy. This isn't the best example, but I have yet to come across a situation where you do not choose the option most desirable to you (thus you are constrained).

Edit: I believe this argument is given by Chisholm (a determinist)
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
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I just remembered a discussion I had last night with the SPA. Someone else made the same EXACT same argument (that if we have free will we cannot be constrained by outside factors).

The problem with this seemed obvious to me when he said

&quot;You can control whether or not you take a philosophy test, but you can't control what is on that test.&quot;

If you COULD control that, then you would be the only person with free will. Part of free will may mean that you receive influence from other people's free will, and you do the same to other people. How much it influences you depends on you in most regards. There's has to be a line drawn between free will and something which is closer to omnipotence (being able to control all exterior factors in the world).
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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balt

So what you are saying is that people are essentially selfish...? If so, I agree. I believe that anybody is always doing something for themselves...now some people are called selfish and others are not, and this is defined by what one does. Let me give an example:

Guy #1 wins $1 million - keeps it all and doesn't give a penny to a bum. That was what we call selfish.

Guy #2 wins $1 million and gives $50 to a bum and another $500,000 to a charity. This man is not &quot;selfish&quot; by most people's definitions. But why did he give that money? To make himself feel better - he bought himself out of the guilt that most people would feel by not giving the bum or the charity some money if they win a bunch.

Any act of charity that I can think of is done to make the giver feel better... they give money or time and they feel better for it - and that is inherently selfish.

Now, of course I'd rather the world is filled with Guy #2's than Guy #1's.

I have yet to come across a single example of a person's willing and non-psychotic action that is anything but selfish somewhere in there.

Even in extreme cases of people such as Mother Theresa giving her life up for other people, this makes her feel better and she enjoys her life because of what she does. She finds happiness in knowing that what she does is right or good.
 

Raspewtin

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Nov 16, 1999
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<< This Balance is 'God' >>



Well said Namuna. Makes sense to me, although I never heard it put that way.


However branching off what Mears said, in a social group, can anyone really have free will? I don't think so. Everyone essentially trades some free will for the protection (for lack of a better word) that society provides, a sort of social contract signed the minute you are born. Religions developed parallel to social development in most cases. That isn't by accident. From a macroscopic view, religion may just create a foundation of beliefs that oil the machinery of society. For example,in my view, heaven was &quot;created&quot; so every day workers wouldn't need to be fully rewarded for ideal behavior, but rather would be rewarded after they were dead. The caste system in India is another example. Religious diets probably were oriented around keeping people healthy, but it was easier to get them to eat well if they had the fear of God in them.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
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Skoorb, that was pretty much what I was saying, yes. ;)

Mears: another example of why this could be a problem.

<<The power, attributed especially to human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.>>

We can't control who are parents were, where we were born, when we were born. Hence we don't have free will? I don't know about that. ;)

That alone doesn't prove that we don't have some measure of free will.

Since I'm a determinist, you can be sure that I'm not one to argue for free will, but I at least want to see free will interpreted correctly (which I don't think it is by your instructor). ;)
 

Mears

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Mar 9, 2000
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Balt, my prof. says that we can't chose freely because we can only do what god knows what we will do. If God knows that I will decide to write this post, I can't not write it. That was his point.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
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If your professor isn't open to other ideas, neither you nor I can help him. ;)

I still maintain that God only knows what we will FREELY choose to do (and we will do that because we choose to, not because he knows it is what we will do).

If the response is the one you gave, that free will is:

The power, attributed especially to human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Then you you can argue that if we were to have that much choice (over who our parents were, when we were born, etc.) then no one else in this world would have free will, only us.
 

Athanasius

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Nov 16, 1999
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Mears:

I will attempt a response to two very deep questions regarding (1)the existence of good and evil, and (2) the existence of real choice amongst rational creatures. If anything I say is helpful, great. If not, consider it chaff in the wind.

Regarding the existence of evil, consider the following reply that I made on another thread:



<< Because &quot;the Absolute&quot; is One, evil potentially exists. If ultimate reality was found in multiple beings or principles, or even two principles (dualism), there would be no such thing as &quot;good&quot; and &quot;evil&quot; because &quot;Good&quot; would be &quot;Evil&quot; relative to &quot;Evil&quot;, and vice versa. In other words, Good and Evil would never be more than different points of view.

Explaining a belief in a core Monad that is the source for everything else, be worshipped as Good and yet allows for Evil is the ultimate theodicy.

I think understanding evil as a dulaity, or an inner dividedness, has some insight.

Augustine, in The City of God, stated the theodicy as clearly as I have heard.

The existence of other selves made in the image of God, but not being God, makes evil an inevitable possibility. Since only God is eternal and unchanging in His core nature, only God is immune from devolving from good into evil. All other &quot;Image-bearing selves&quot; derive their goodness from God, the Absolute. But Christian tradition also teaches that God is &quot;Agape&quot; Love. We don't know much about love. In fact, scientifically, much like the existence of God, we cannot even prove that love exists. Perhaps that is one evidence of our dividedness.

But we do know that Agape Love, perhaps for now simplified as &quot;genuine, sacrificial, altruism,&quot; has to chosen as an act of will. One's belief in the value of other selves has to outweigh our desire for self-exaltation and self-preservation for genuine altruism to occur. In other words, we cannot make anyone love us. Perhaps nothing can make anything love with &quot;Agape&quot; Love. Each self that has the self-awareness to choose must choose it. This choice always begins with faith because we lack the ability to scientifically prove the eternality and centrality of Sacrificial Altruism. In the end, one must simply take that leap and choose to trust.

Apparently for us, this choice is intensely difficult to carry out on a daily basis. This means that we are &quot;diseased.&quot; The original rational creatures (call them angels) apparently were not diseased, but the choice was still a necessary one. Since they were not beyond all times and therefore not beyond change, they faced their fork in the road of maintaining &quot;the Absolute Good/Self-exisitng Self&quot; as the center. Or they could make their individual selves the center of their own little universe of their own little minds. Little is relative. Compared to us, &quot;angels&quot; are immense. Compared to the Absolute Good, they are little.

The Choice may be intrinsic to the act of the Good's creating &quot;other selves than the Absolute Good.&quot; Hence, this universe is not (at least as far as humanity is concerned), nor ever was, intended to be the best of all possible worlds but rather a necessary world that leads to the best of all possible worlds. For us, the Choice is reflected in the seventy or eighty years that we walk on earth. If, through the leading of the Logos of the Good, we return to the Good as our center, than in one sense we discover that the Good is our True Self because we are made to reflect Him.

If we make our &quot;little selves&quot; the center, or even another &quot;little self&quot; besides the Good the center, we step backwards into further fragmentation. The stronger the &quot;little self&quot; the creater the evil/disharmony if it establishes itself as the center. In our diseased condition, perhaps this makes &quot;relatively higher good&quot; potentially more destructive than lesser good: we are more likely to mistake religion or patriotism or family as the center than we are a BMW or a dog. And, if we do, religion or patriotism or family has a much greater potential for evil than a BMW or a dog. The higher the angel, the fiercer the demon if that angel falls.&quot;

Anyway, Augustine deals with it in City of God, especially book 11 of that work.
>>




Regarding the existence of God's Foreknowledge and the seeming inevitability of human freedom, I think this apparent contradiction comes from a failure to understand what &quot;Foreknowledge&quot; menas when it is used of God. If I use a human example to try and simply the issue, I think I can make my point.

Consider my wife and our five year old son. My wife has vastly superior knowledge than my son: she knows more about the world, and she knows him better than he knows himself. Now let us assume that my wife is out in the yard with our son and he begins to play near the road. Now my wife has warned my son a hundred times not to play in the street. As he draws near to the road, my wife says, &quot;Trevor, if you don't get away from the street, I'm going to take you inside.&quot;

Trevor looks over his shoulder, flashes his most disarmingly mischievious grin, and turns away. My wife, because she knows Trevor, knows that trevor is going to step out towards the road. He hasn't done it yet, but he will. Does my wife then snatch him up and take him outside simply based on her superior knowledge? Or does she wait on Trevor? Isn't the important thing the volitional choice itself? Until Trevor volitionally acts on his impulse, that impulse has no objective existence. Though the choice is foreknown by my wife, it is still Trevor's choice. It isn't a real choice until he makes it.

Now think about it: my wife's superior knowledge in no way impedes the exercise of Trevor's will. Her foreknowledge is accurate, but not binding. It was Trevor's choice to disobey that was the core reality. My wife simply knew Trevor and so knew his choice even before he did; yet there is no fatalism here.

The whole point is that the enacting of the child's will really is the core reality. My wife's foreknowledge of the choice doesn't hinder or help the nature of the choice itself.

God is concerned with the nature of the choice itself. The choice is made over the seventy or eighty years that we walk on this globe.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
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Yes, He knows what you're going to do. But, that doesn't mean that what you do has been planned out by God himself. You choose what you want to do, but he knows what it is before you choose it.

That also gets into the question of &quot;why are you here&quot; and the arguement on Predestination (ugh).
 

tom3

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Oct 10, 1999
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Mears



<< if you believe in the Christian God, you believe in heaven and hell. To get into heaven you must work for it and be the best person you can possibly be. Your life on earth is a test >>



This statement cannot be more wrong. The basis of the Christian faith is that you CAN NOT work your way into heaven. No one can do good deeds and be &quot;good enough&quot; to enter heaven. Such a &quot;system&quot; may be what Catholics believe, but Christians do not believe in that.

Christians believe that there is ONLY ONE way to be saved, and it is through the salvation of Jesus.


Skoorb

Your idea that everyone is doing everything for his/her own good is very interesting. What do you think of parents who would sacrifice themselves to save their children? Say if the plane is gonna crash and there is only one set of parachute left, a father puts it on his kid instead of himself. Or jumping out to catch a bullet for their children. Do you think that is an act that results in selfish desires?

I am a Christian and I do agree largely (not entirely) with you that people do most things out of selfish desires. It is called sin, and being decendents of Adam and Eve, the entire human race is born with sin. Selfishness is in the human nature. No one can rid himself/herself of this sinful nature. But Jesus payed for the punishment of sin for us 2000 years ago, so that we may be saved.



On the concept of free will and God's all knowing attribute. Knowing that God knows exactly what I am going to do next and what I have done, what I am doing, and what I will be doing in the future is not conflicting with the fact that I have perfectly free will. Think of it this way, it's not like God has planned out every detail of your life, determining everything you will do and think, but rather, it's like he can see your life the way YOU live it, from beginning to end. And he has always had thie knowledge, and he forever will because he is outside the dimension of time, whereas we are limited by it. I choose what I wear today, what I am gonna eat for dinner, whether I take the bus or drive, but God already knows the result of my decisions, even before I have made it.


Why does God give us free will, knowing that we would sin? Why doesn't he just create us completely perfect, and never have to worry about it? Because God loves us more than we can fathom, he wanted us to have free will. He did not want to make perfect behaving robots.
I find it that many times I am able to understand God better when I think about a parent-child relationsihp. If you really really love your child, and want to give him/her free will, would you tell him/her what to do with their lives? Would you make decisions for them and force them to follow it, or would you explain the good and bad of a situation and let them decide? This is not a very good metaphor, but one that helped me to understand why we are given free will.


Underclocked

You falsely accuse God of human sufferings. All human suffering is the result of sin, directly or indirectly, and not always the result of one's own sin. There are consequences of sin that are inevitable, that is the law of the universe God created. Just like the law of gravity says if I jumped off of a 20 story building, I will fall and die. Often times the consequence of one person or a group of people's wrong doings can affect others, can carry on for generations, or can exist permanently, affecting every person to come.

 

thebestMAX

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Sep 14, 2000
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Due to the fact that George Bush is going to get elected, I am now initiating a kindler, gentler me who will no longer comment on political or religious threads, MUCH.
 

Mears

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Mar 9, 2000
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Athanasius:
That was a well thought out response. Here is one question for you. Do you think that in your situation, your wife might have some hope that just maybe your son will listen and not go out to the road? If so, would she really &quot;know&quot; like God knows, or do you think that God might also have a little &quot;hope&quot; that we will not make decisions that he knows we will make. My point being that we as humans can never know for sure what someone is going to do. We might be right 99% of the time, but there is always that 1% that surprises us. If God always knows, then would he really have to wait to see what our action is going to be?