Question for opponents of health reform

[DesiPower]

Originally posted by: Patranus
LOL - I love it, first it was 30 million uninsured, then it was 36 million uninsured, then next it was 45 million uninsured, and now it is 50 million uninsured?

You know i was listening to a story about Burmese Pythons in the FL everglades on NPR the other day, it seems there are about 100,000 of them. They were interviewing an expert on those animals who also was one of the contracts hired to get rid of them... He said - When I 1st heard they were about 10,000 then 15 then 20 then 30 and then the politicians got involved and the number jumped to 100,000 overnight!!! :laugh:

 

[mrwabam]

1. Do you consider it a problem that there are 50mil uninsured people in this country? What is your proposal for dealing with this in an orderly way? You must answer this question under the assumption that they will get cared for if they get sick, it's just a matter of who pays for it. Dont bother preaching personal responsibility, because that is not a solution, just a diversion.

No, health care is not and should not be considered a birth right. Having to actually pay for insurance is a pretty darn good motivator to go out and get a job with health benefits. If you choose or are unable to do that, die, seriously die. Darwin would turn over in his grave if he saw the crazy state humans were going to.

2. Our health care spending consumes almost twice our gdp when compared to other countries. Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing?

It is a bad thing. It should be cheaper, and I think some health reform would be good. ObamaCare (as it has been presented so far) is way too much and will do nothing to actually lower costs in the US.

3. Healthcare spending and premiums are growing at a faster clip than inflation and wage growth. How do you propose slowing this down?

Simple.... Have health insurance be like home/car/pretty much every other insurance available.

My home is insured, if there is an earthquake or other catastrophic event that wrecks knocks my house down I get money. If I get a heart attack, my health insurance would pay to fix me.

My insurance does not pay for upkeep of my house (painting the walls, putting in new bathroom, upgrading the sinks, replacing old pipes, etc...).... My health insurance shouldn't pay for my annual physicals/upkeep either.

If I treat my house like shit, I am liable if it falls apart. If i don't do my preventative maintenance and treat my body like shit, i should be liable and either let die, or have to pay out of pocket.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
The progressives built their plan, and are selling their plan on the premise that costs are too high because insurance companies are making too much profit.

Exactly.

Compare the industry profit margins to the average profit margins of the S&P 1000. Health Insurance providers are something like 3% lower overall.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: cubby1223
The progressives built their plan, and are selling their plan on the premise that costs are too high because insurance companies are making too much profit.

Exactly.

Compare the industry profit margins to the average profit margins of the S&P 1000. Health Insurance providers are something like 3% lower overall.

But what about the overhead and admin costs! And the CEO bonuses! They make BILLIONS!

/stupidlib

 

[mrwabam]

Good for them. They create jobs, and a slew of people who do not need handouts from the Gov. We should be thanking these HC companies.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: cubby1223
The progressives built their plan, and are selling their plan on the premise that costs are too high because insurance companies are making too much profit.

Exactly.

Compare the industry profit margins to the average profit margins of the S&P 1000. Health Insurance providers are something like 3% lower overall.

But what about the overhead and admin costs! And the CEO bonuses! They make BILLIONS!

/stupidlib

When you piggyback and start a circlejerk, it just makes you look like a fool.

Especially when you support huge profits that are solely based around denying rightful benefits and therefore, killing our own people.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: cubby1223
The progressives built their plan, and are selling their plan on the premise that costs are too high because insurance companies are making too much profit.

Exactly.

Compare the industry profit margins to the average profit margins of the S&P 1000. Health Insurance providers are something like 3% lower overall.

But what about the overhead and admin costs! And the CEO bonuses! They make BILLIONS!

/stupidlib

When you piggyback and start a circlejerk, it just makes you look like a fool.

Especially when you support huge profits that are solely based around denying rightful benefits and therefore, killing our own people.

OMG THE 4% PROFIT MARGIN THE HORRAR.

 

[mrwabam]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
To ElFenix and Cuda....

Would you be for the government FORCING a standardization of a health form / health information to reduce admin costs? Or do you see the private insurers voluntarily deciding to go on the same format / admin system so that you can always compare apples to apples.

iirc, utah forced the standardization and got a big reduction. it'd probably take the .gov doing it because they're the only ones that can cut through all the state regulations that i'm sure are in place.

They already did that and it failed.... ever hear of HIPPA? That was supposed to standardize everything. What a joke that was/is.

NPI numbers=another failed joke by the gov

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Especially when you support huge profits that are solely based around denying rightful benefits and therefore, killing our own people.

Health insurance profits account for less than 1% of the total health care costs.

Make all insurance companies not-for-profit and health care remains 99% as expensive as it is now.

Amazing plan there :roll:

What is causing the remaining 99% of costs?

 

[PokerGuy]

If someone says "how much is 146237451 x 2381538" and you don't get to use a calculator, your answer would be "I don't know". If they then said "the answer is 3", I could conclusively say "no, that answer is wrong", even though I could not provide the correct answer.

That's what the conservatives are doing. They don't have all the "correct" answers, but they certainly know that the current bills being proposed are not the correct answers.

As to plans or suggestions: how about a plan where the government establishes a max out of pocket per year and for your lifetime for medical care. Anything over that amount is picked up by the government. The threshhold amount would be determined as a percentage of your AGI. Combine that with HSA's, and you'd be paying your own way for most health care, and have the government as catastrophic insurance. You would then be free to purchase your own insurance (in addition) if you wanted more specific protection.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: mrwabam

Originally posted by: ElFenix

iirc, utah forced the standardization and got a big reduction. it'd probably take the .gov doing it because they're the only ones that can cut through all the state regulations that i'm sure are in place.

They already did that and it failed.... ever hear of HIPPA? That was supposed to standardize everything. What a joke that was/is.

NPI numbers=another failed joke by the gov

from what i can tell, HIPAA didn't go anywhere near far enough in terms of standardizing codes and forms. like i said, utah seems to have done it properly.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
If someone says "how much is 146237451 x 2381538" and you don't get to use a calculator, your answer would be "I don't know". If they then said "the answer is 3", I could conclusively say "no, that answer is wrong", even though I could not provide the correct answer.

That's what the conservatives are doing. They don't have all the "correct" answers, but they certainly know that the current bills being proposed are not the correct answers.

As to plans or suggestions: how about a plan where the government establishes a max out of pocket per year and for your lifetime for medical care. Anything over that amount is picked up by the government. The threshhold amount would be determined as a percentage of your AGI. Combine that with HSA's, and you'd be paying your own way for most health care, and have the government as catastrophic insurance. You would then be free to purchase your own insurance (in addition) if you wanted more specific protection.

I like that analogy, I actually use that one myself.

The problem with personal-choice insurance is that politicians think the populace is too stupid to do it themselves AND they lose control and power if they hand that over to the individual.

 

[irwincur]

Fix inefficiencies first. Find out where money is being wasted and fix it. When these are taken care of we can get a real idea of what insurance costs.

Allow insurance plans to follow individules and cross state lines. More like car insurance. You pay for what you want and you can easily shop around for the best price. Doing this will ultimately lead to more competition for individule customers and the expected price reduction that follows competition.

Tort reform, tort reform, tort reform. Will never see this as the tort lawyers are the single largest contributors to the DNC and democratic candidates.

Programs to increase the health of individules outside of the break fix medical environment. Tax breaks for gym memberships, incentives for losing weight, incentives for reducing blood pressure, etc...

Smarter use of the ER and front line medical centers. More PA's and fewer doctors in these environments for routine care. Hospitals are for major care and long term care, not for some drug addict looking for some free pills (I have seen this with my own eyes many times). They are also not for people with colds and pulled muscles.

Lastly, keep government as far away as possible. If anything could really screw it up, it is the government. People who think that the gov can reduce costs are on crack. They have never done this and never will. Furthermore, the government will reduce the ability for drug makers to continue to make new, expensive drugs as the payouts will be few and far between. Yes, insurance companies make a profit. But people must realize that profict is typically incentive for a company to keep costs down.

 

[PokerGuy]

I'm definitely all for creating some standardization in terms of forms, codes etc, but other than that, I don't think adding government in the operations / administration adds any benefits.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Fix inefficiencies first. Find out where money is being wasted and fix it. When these are taken care of we can get a real idea of what insurance costs.

Exactly...

If Obama says 70% of the stuff both sides agree with, pass that stuff...such as deregulation of insurance regulations across state lines.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Fix inefficiencies first. Find out where money is being wasted and fix it. When these are taken care of we can get a real idea of what insurance costs.

Getting rid of medicare/medicaid would be a start.

 

[cubby1223]

Here's a crazy idea I know, how about we limit ourselves to a reform plan that falls within the congressional powers granted by our Constitution? Else why do we even have the Constitution? If we continue on with the popular trend of ignoring it... And I'm going to bitchslap the anyone who replies "Bush started it".

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Here's a crazy idea I know, how about we limit ourselves to a reform plan that falls within the congressional powers granted by our Constitution? Else why do we even have the Constitution? If we continue on with the popular trend of ignoring it... And I'm going to bitchslap the anyone who replies "Bush started it".

A part of me wishes they would pass healthcare so that Texas can sue. If they win, we can unravel federal government. If they lose, Texas can secede and I can move there.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Here's a crazy idea I know, how about we limit ourselves to a reform plan that falls within the congressional powers granted by our Constitution? Else why do we even have the Constitution? If we continue on with the popular trend of ignoring it... And I'm going to bitchslap the anyone who replies "Bush started it".

A part of me wishes they would pass healthcare so that Texas can sue. If they win, we can unravel federal government. If they lose, Texas can secede and I can move there.

Chuck Norris for President of Texas!

:thumbsup:

Chuck Norris doesn't veto bills, he roundhouse-kicks them into oblivion!

:laugh:

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Genx87
Edit: This is my plan. I am not responding to the OP's 3 points below.

1. Public catastrophic option. 2-4K deductible depending on income level and age. If you want 15 dollar copays. Then pay for it via private insurance.
2. Have to address end of life care costs
3. Erase tax deduction for business paying for healthcare. Or grant individual tax deduction for cost of insurance. Level the playing field.

We arent addressing the costs in the system with the current reform. Only how to pay for the ever increasing costs.

We are adding real competition, which will reduce costs.

In what way? You think the costs are derived from the insurance companies or from the health provider?

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: mrwabam

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
To ElFenix and Cuda....

Would you be for the government FORCING a standardization of a health form / health information to reduce admin costs? Or do you see the private insurers voluntarily deciding to go on the same format / admin system so that you can always compare apples to apples.

iirc, utah forced the standardization and got a big reduction. it'd probably take the .gov doing it because they're the only ones that can cut through all the state regulations that i'm sure are in place.

They already did that and it failed.... ever hear of HIPPA? That was supposed to standardize everything. What a joke that was/is.

NPI numbers=another failed joke by the gov

Actually I know exactly what HIPAA is, and its not a joke. I work for a company that sells a HIPAA interface that allows companies to transmit their data in a pre-defined format which is HIPAA compliant. Believe it or not, a lot of the B.S of 'you didn't send your data right' goes a way when its in a fixed format and the insurance companies can't claim that all of a sudden an entire roster is uninsured because some bullshit of a form that they wanted wasn't submitted correctly.

 

[EndGame]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: irwincur
Fix inefficiencies first. Find out where money is being wasted and fix it. When these are taken care of we can get a real idea of what insurance costs.

Getting rid of medicare/medicaid would be a start.

Might as well add the VA benefits too........then you include most people over 65 or disabled and just about everyone making what........$30K a year or less.......Just for a kicker though, I'd stop all and any Social security and Assistance benefits too.... Ought to make it much easy to insure everyone a few years down the road when a majority of them are gone.........:roll:

EDIT: Fixed an obvious spelling error......

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
In general, I am for health care reform, however in the current format of the bill, I don't see how I can support it.

My suggestions.

1. Insure everyone, right now the uninsured are being subsidized by the insured
2. Make insurance company treat their pools of customers as one national pool instead of screwing over small companies when something bad happens to 1 employee
3. Make the insurance companies post prices on the web that are easily accessible so that we know how much each procedure costs depending on the insurer.
4. Allow anyone to buy insurance from any provider regardless of what their employer offers. Talk about a lack of choice.

anyone can already buy insurance from any provider regardless of what their employer offers.

and are you advocating community rating?

The problem with your statement is that if I buy into Cigna for example, and my employer has Blue Cross Blue Shield, I have to pay the entire cost myself, not realistic.

What do you mean when you refer to community rating?

My issue with how pooling is done is that in a company that I am in (50 people) if 3 of us have kids (we are a young company, median age in the low 30s) our premiums go up by 25% (which is what happened this year). The insurance company is trying to re-coup the money from US only, and that's wrong. Does that mean a different company that has 50 employees and had no kids born got a reduction? I seriously doubt it.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Genx87
Edit: This is my plan. I am not responding to the OP's 3 points below.

1. Public catastrophic option. 2-4K deductible depending on income level and age. If you want 15 dollar copays. Then pay for it via private insurance.
2. Have to address end of life care costs
3. Erase tax deduction for business paying for healthcare. Or grant individual tax deduction for cost of insurance. Level the playing field.

We arent addressing the costs in the system with the current reform. Only how to pay for the ever increasing costs.

We are adding real competition, which will reduce costs.

In what way? You think the costs are derived from the insurance companies or from the health provider?

I love the retarded ass notion that offering a public plan will inject competition and reduce costs. The problem with medicine is a supply problem, not a economy of scale problem. There is a short supply of medicine, and by offering artificially low priced "public option" you are effectively increasing demand. This can only result higher prices.

What's going to happen is there will be two segments of medicine created. Whether it's a gov't agency or a coop a new org is created, they will have attract doctors that will accept their low paid insurance. This attracts the lowest common denominator doctors. So now you have public option doctors (probably poor performance), and private insurance doctors. At this point the public option will be over capacity because private insurance doctors will not accept PO patients.

Then the real fun begins. Politicians will claim that is discrimination and will pass a law that disallows doctors that accept insurance to deny PO patients. The private system will now be strained and all medicine becomes public/private hybrid.

The rich of course will keep their doctors because they can just pay cash.

Because of the lack of funds there will low PO payouts and more and more doctors will get out of medicine and future candidates for MDs will seriously reconsider. What ultimately will happen is long waits and rationing. Private insurers' profit margins will deteriorate because doctors will charge more for private to subsidize public. Then the ones on the private plans will realize it makes no sense and all will get dumped on public and eventually evolve to UHC.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: EndGame

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: irwincur
Fix inefficiencies first. Find out where money is being wasted and fix it. When these are taken care of we can get a real idea of what insurance costs.

Getting rid of medicare/medicaid would be a start.

Might as well add the VA benefits too........then you include most people over 65 or disabled and just about everyone making what........$30K a year or less.......Just for a kicker though, I'd stop all and any Social security and Assistance benefits too.... Ought to make it much easy to insure everyone a few years down the road when a majority of them are gone.........:roll:

EDIT: Fixed an obvious spelling error......

:thumbsup: where do we sign up?