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Question about the Space Shuttle

L

leeland

Diamond Member
ok sorry for being ingnorant, i haven't been able to follow all that has been discovered since the tragedy over the weekend...but i have a question about it


as far as i know when it lifted off...something flew off the rocket and hit the left wing...and possibly or did damage it. Now i am wondering why they did not address this in space...you know, like go out and check the wing prior to coming back to earth. Now i am not up to snuff with the space shuttle stuff so that is the ignorant question.

For all i know they could have gone out there and seen nothing wrong,

and here is another quick question....lets say they got out to inspect the wing and there Is something dammaged, and they don't want to re-enter...what do they do then...can they go to the international space station ??? or are they just screwed ?

thanks all who reply

leeland
 
From what I understand, foam hitting the wing isn't something that happened just once, it's happened before, and it never did any damage to speak of in the past... so it wasn't a big issue that was addressed.

If they do find a problem in orbit.. they don't have many options. They didn't have enough fuel to reach the ISS orbit, or the proper equipment to dock with it... so they probably would have had to send up another shuttle to either fix it or bring them home.
 
Originally posted by: leeland
ok sorry for being ingnorant, i haven't been able to follow all that has been discovered since the tragedy over the weekend...but i have a question about it


as far as i know when it lifted off...something flew off the rocket and hit the left wing...and possibly or did damage it. Now i am wondering why they did not address this in space...you know, like go out and check the wing prior to coming back to earth. Now i am not up to snuff with the space shuttle stuff so that is the ignorant question.

For all i know they could have gone out there and seen nothing wrong,

and here is another quick question....lets say they got out to inspect the wing and there Is something dammaged, and they don't want to re-enter...what do they do then...can they go to the international space station ??? or are they just screwed ?

thanks all who reply

leeland
Click to expand...


I don't know why they didn't check, maybe not equiped for extravehicular activity? It was a science mission so maybe the shuttle bay had the lab unit in it and couldn't even really get out of the bay. Also, it requires special equipment for docking with the space station, which I assume they didn't have. So... it seems like they had no choice but to come on down.
 
Originally posted by: MacBaine
From what I understand, foam hitting the wing isn't something that happened just once, it's happened before, and it never did any damage to speak of in the past... so it wasn't a big issue that was addressed.

If they do find a problem in orbit.. they don't have many options. They didn't have enough fuel to reach the ISS orbit, or the proper equipment to dock with it... so they probably would have had to send up another shuttle to either fix it or bring them home.
Click to expand...

Actually the foam has caused recorded damage. Nasa has known about this problem since 1997. There is even talk about the new non freon foam being the problem.
 
NASA engineers concluded that the foam that hit the wing would not have caused any significant damage. Also, I doubt that there is a spacesuit for every mission. Astronauts have to train for years for a space walk, so if a space walk was not in their mission, they probably did not have either the expertise or the equipment.
 
Also, even if they knew of the problem, they might have been stranded. Columbia was not equiped to dock with ISS, so there would not have been an escape pod for them...
 
There is no way to repair a shuttle in orbit.
They did not have the fuel to get to the space station.
To put up another shuttle in the time required to rescue the Columbia crew, they would have to discard every safety procedure currently used--one of the reasons why the turnaround time on shuttle launches is so long is because of all the safety checks.

They had no robot arm and no MMU's (manned manuevering units) to go out and check the wing.

They were pretty much screwed the second that insulation hit the wing.
 
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: TheBDB
They don't even know if the foam hitting the wing had anything to do with the crash.
Click to expand...

They know the foam can damage and does damage tiles.
Click to expand...

Yes, they know that foam has fallen off before and it caused slight tile damage. They don't know if foam hitting the wing had anything to do with the crash.
 
They don't know if foam hitting the wing had anything to do with the crash.
Click to expand...

"They" might not "know" anything, ever...but even I can tell which way the wind is blowing on this one:

Debris hits back of wing.
Back of wing overheats during re-entry.
Computers have to compensate for disrupted airflow over wing.
Orbiter breaks up at 12,000 miles an hour.

It is not all that hard to conclude the wing was damaged and that caused the accident.
 
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: TheBDB
They don't even know if the foam hitting the wing had anything to do with the crash.
Click to expand...

They know the foam can damage and does damage tiles.
Click to expand...

Yes, they know that foam has fallen off before and it caused slight tile damage. They don't know if foam hitting the wing had anything to do with the crash.
Click to expand...

1/2 cut into a 1 inch tile is not slight.
 
Originally posted by: 3L33T32003
They don't know if foam hitting the wing had anything to do with the crash.
Click to expand...

"They" might not "know" anything, ever...but even I can tell which way the wind is blowing on this one:

Debris hits back of wing.
Back of wing overheats during re-entry.
Computers have to compensate for disrupted airflow over wing.
Orbiter breaks up at 12,000 miles an hour.

It is not all that hard to conclude the wing was damaged and that caused the accident.
Click to expand...

You're right! Close down the investigation, no need to waste anymore time.
 
If I were up there, I would have gotten on my radio and called for Lonestar and gotten him to use the schwartz...
 
Put it this way:

You're on the shuttle. You see video of an ice covered chunk of foam the size of a guitar flying off and striking the ever vital heat tiles which have been a point of worry since the very first shuttle flight do you....

A) Ride it down

B) Say 'let me off' and hang out in the space station till the next ride comes

?

On one hand I like that NASA is being upfront with details, but when on the first day they said 'we didn't even look to see if the tiles were damaged because we couldn't fix them anyway' I took that entirely as a 'ain't my job, go away' gum smacking teenage girl working customer service desk kind of answer. I'd hoped for better from rocket scientists, though I'm not sure why really.

--Mc
 
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: 3L33T32003
They don't know if foam hitting the wing had anything to do with the crash.
Click to expand...

"They" might not "know" anything, ever...but even I can tell which way the wind is blowing on this one:

Debris hits back of wing.
Back of wing overheats during re-entry.
Computers have to compensate for disrupted airflow over wing.
Orbiter breaks up at 12,000 miles an hour.

It is not all that hard to conclude the wing was damaged and that caused the accident.
Click to expand...

You're right! Close down the investigation, no need to waste anymore time.
Click to expand...

It's not the time I'd be worried about, its the money. 🙂

KK

 
Originally posted by: McCarthy
Put it this way:

You're on the shuttle. You see video of an ice covered chunk of foam the size of a guitar flying off and striking the ever vital heat tiles which have been a point of worry since the very first shuttle flight do you....

A) Ride it down

B) Say 'let me off' and hang out in the space station till the next ride comes

?

On one hand I like that NASA is being upfront with details, but when on the first day they said 'we didn't even look to see if the tiles were damaged because we couldn't fix them anyway' I took that entirely as a 'ain't my job, go away' gum smacking teenage girl working customer service desk kind of answer. I'd hoped for better from rocket scientists, though I'm not sure why really.

--Mc
Click to expand...

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Originally posted by: McCarthy
Put it this way:

You're on the shuttle. You see video of an ice covered chunk of foam the size of a guitar flying off and striking the ever vital heat tiles which have been a point of worry since the very first shuttle flight do you....

A) Ride it down

B) Say 'let me off' and hang out in the space station till the next ride comes

?

On one hand I like that NASA is being upfront with details, but when on the first day they said 'we didn't even look to see if the tiles were damaged because we couldn't fix them anyway' I took that entirely as a 'ain't my job, go away' gum smacking teenage girl working customer service desk kind of answer. I'd hoped for better from rocket scientists, though I'm not sure why really.

--Mc
Click to expand...

Execpt that was impossible since columbia was not equipped to dock with the ISS, as previously mentioned

 
Guess the thing that strikes me is the change from NASA of the 60's 'Can do' attitude to current 'can't do'. There's all sorts of reasons they couldn't dock, couldn't do a space walk, didn't have enough fuel, couldn't look at the wing, couldn't fix it if they did look and found anything.

I hope it comes from the vehicle having broken up and nobody wanting to say after the fact 'yes, we could have done X' because that leads down the road of asking why they didn't. And since we don't know now why it did break up there's no way they would have known in advance it was going to. Could very well be it had nothing to do with that foam.

So don't get me wrong, not saying every time there's a piece of foam falling off or a birdstrike NASA should go to drastic measures. Just frustrating to hear over and over there are no drastic measures, or any possible measures beyond the plan, period.

Sure, it's Monday morning quarterbacking. Way of dealing with frustration. Not saying 'this is what they should have done', but rather 'couldn't they have done....' and constantly hitting brick walls that just make it all the more frustrating to consider.
 
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: McCarthy
Put it this way:

You're on the shuttle. You see video of an ice covered chunk of foam the size of a guitar flying off and striking the ever vital heat tiles which have been a point of worry since the very first shuttle flight do you....

A) Ride it down

B) Say 'let me off' and hang out in the space station till the next ride comes

?

On one hand I like that NASA is being upfront with details, but when on the first day they said 'we didn't even look to see if the tiles were damaged because we couldn't fix them anyway' I took that entirely as a 'ain't my job, go away' gum smacking teenage girl working customer service desk kind of answer. I'd hoped for better from rocket scientists, though I'm not sure why really.

--Mc
Click to expand...

Execpt that was impossible since columbia was not equipped to dock with the ISS, as previously mentioned
Click to expand...

And didn't have the gas to get there anyway.
 
Originally posted by: McCarthy
Guess the thing that strikes me is the change from NASA of the 60's 'Can do' attitude to current 'can't do'. There's all sorts of reasons they couldn't dock, couldn't do a space walk, didn't have enough fuel, couldn't look at the wing, couldn't fix it if they did look and found anything.

I hope it comes from the vehicle having broken up and nobody wanting to say after the fact 'yes, we could have done X' because that leads down the road of asking why they didn't. And since we don't know now why it did break up there's no way they would have known in advance it was going to. Could very well be it had nothing to do with that foam.

So don't get me wrong, not saying every time there's a piece of foam falling off or a birdstrike NASA should go to drastic measures. Just frustrating to hear over and over there are no drastic measures, or any possible measures beyond the plan, period.
Click to expand...

NASA did analyse this strike. From what I've heard, every other time this has happened, the analysis has been conservative relative to the actual damage they found when landing. The analysis said it was ok. Of course, you have to revisit it now, but the is still a reasonable chance that this failure is unrelated.

As far as "can't do" is concerned ... there are some things you just can't do. You can't reach iss from the orbit they were in. That's just physics. You can't turn around a second shuttle launch in the time they had left. You could try, but the most likely scenario is that you cut to many corners and end up losing both of them. At this point, once your up there, you're on you own.

I think they will be revisiting the kind of on-orbit tile inspections they had in the early launches, though I don't know if they could inspect the underside. They may re-asses the idea of a tile repair kit. But that comes with a big set of problems, not the least of which is how to anchor an EVA astronaut working on the bottom of the shuttle.

Sure, it's Monday morning quarterbacking. Way of dealing with frustration. Not saying 'this is what they should have done', but rather 'couldn't they have done....' and constantly hitting brick walls that just make it all the more frustrating to consider.
Click to expand...

 
Originally posted by: 3L33T32003
They don't know if foam hitting the wing had anything to do with the crash.
Click to expand...

"They" might not "know" anything, ever...but even I can tell which way the wind is blowing on this one:

Debris hits back of wing.
Back of wing overheats during re-entry.
Computers have to compensate for disrupted airflow over wing.
Orbiter breaks up at 12,000 miles an hour.

It is not all that hard to conclude the wing was damaged and that caused the accident.
Click to expand...

Yup, it's easy to make that kind of conclusion from where you're sitting with 0 responsibility.
What if it's something else? You fix this issue in some manner, but you haven't addressed the real cause of the accident.

This isn't like balancing your checkbook.
 
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
NASA engineers concluded that the foam that hit the wing would not have caused any significant damage. Also, I doubt that there is a spacesuit for every mission. Astronauts have to train for years for a space walk, so if a space walk was not in their mission, they probably did not have either the expertise or the equipment.
Click to expand...

From what I read about it, NASA actually saw some debris falling from the wing after it was hit. The news talked that NASA has high-res camera images of the shuttle while it's going up; they didn't have access to them, only the grainy broadcast-resolution video, which really wasn't that good; but I assume they have information coming from within NASA.
What 3L33T32003 said is pretty much in line with my thinking - something struck the left wing on takeoff, possibly causing damage. On re-entry, some sensors in the left wing failed. Then the landing gear sensors recorded a heat spike, then they too failed. Then contact was lost.
 
Thanks for the link. Still feel like asking 'NASA can't duct tape a camera to a stick to look around a corner, we need a robotic arm?' wonderings, but instead I think I'll be quiet about it now and focus my attention elsewhere.

Here, from the article:
"What is being done for the astronauts' families? And how can I send sympathies?

A fund is being set up. The Space Shuttle Children?s Trust Fund was established with the support of NASA after the 1986 Challenger disaster. The fund, which raised $1 million, will now work to raise money for Columbia families."

Heard an interview with the founder of this fund the other day, was surprised only a million had been raised. There were 13 children left after the Challenger incident (if I remember right). While it may sound like a good chunk at first it gets thinned quick when divided that many ways and a lot of the astronuats on that flight didn't have life insurance, being classified uninsurable because of occupation. At the time of interview it wasn't known who if anyone on this flight was uninsured. 12 children lost a parent on the Columbia mission.

Know it's not about what happened to the orbitor or what could have been done, but like I was trying to say in the last post, for me anyway, talking about it is a way of working out frustration for lack of a better word. This gives something to actually do to those who wish.

--Mc

Found address on bankofamerica page:
"Those wishing to contribute should send a check or money order to the following address:
The Space Shuttle Children's Trust Fund
c/o The Private Bank at Bank of America
P.O. Box 34600
Washington, D.C. 20043-4600"
 
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