Question about the creation of Israel.

[Shaftatplanetquake]

Allright, just checking here. The reason the Palestinians (and most of the other arabs also) are pissed off is because in the late 1940s/early 1950s the UN basically took a nice chunk of land that belonged to Palestine and said, "This land is now known as Israel and it belongs to the Jews."

That is fundamentally the problem, correct?

I think I would be pretty pissed off and might stoop pretty low to get my land back if someone else took it and gave it to someone else also.

 

[gopunk]

well, the israelis had that land taken from them earlier. go to encarta, and read about the history of "palestine". jews have been there for a long long time. since 1300 bc about.

btw, even if the jews just came and took all that land, i would be pissed too. but i wouldn't kill anybody over it. to do so, would be uncivilized.

 

[Scouzer]

I think the British were in Palestine before they gave it to the jews...

 

[Random Variable]

No. The Jews started resettling and redeveloping the "Holy Land" in the 1880's when the land was sparsely populated and malaria-infested. To sum it all up very quickly, the Jews were first promised all of historical Palestine; however, 77-percent of the land was set aside to create an Arab state (which is now Jordan). And then in 1947 the remaing 23-percent was partitioned again to create another Arab state. The partition was actually only a recommendation by the UN and not a resolution. The Jews excepted the partition nevertheless, but Arab states didn't and responded by declaring war on Israel.

 

[HappyPuppy]

Israel was given to the Jews several thousand years ago by God.
OK, you aren't going to buy that.

There has never existed a Palestine. The land the Palestinians claim has never been theirs to claim as a sovereign nation.

The tiny piece of desert the Jews were given by the U.N. has been turned into a paradise by hard working people. Their borders have expanded over the years due to wars initiated by surrounding Arab countries who lost their asses trying to drive them into oblivion.

If the surrounding Arab countries were so concerned with the plight of the Palestinians, why haven't they helped them rather than goad them on in an interminable war with Israel that they, the surrounding Arab countries, are too cowardly to fight themselves?

The surrounding Arab countries are all pretty much dictatorships. The common people live in poverty with their only redeeming light being that the Palestinians have it worse than them. The leaders of all the scumbag Arab countries help to perpetuate the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel in order to keep the minds of their own people off their own problems, ie: more poverty and hopelessness.

 

[gopunk]

I think the British were in Palestine before they gave it to the jews...

the british are what caused this whole mess.. they basically promised the land to both the jews and the palestineans.




<< The struggle for Palestine, which abated during World War II, resumed in 1945. The horrors of the Holocaust produced world sympathy for European Jewry and for Zionism, and although Britain still refused to admit 100,000 Jewish survivors to Palestine, many survivors of the Nazi death camps found their way there illegally. Various plans for solving the Palestine problem were rejected by one party or the other. Britain finally declared the mandate unworkable and turned the problem over to the United Nations in April 1947. The Jews and the Palestinians prepared for a showdown.

Although the Palestinians outnumbered the Jews (1,300,000 to 600,000), the latter were better prepared. They had a semiautonomous government, led by David Ben-Gurion, and their military, the Haganah, was well trained and experienced. The Palestinians, on the other hand, had never recovered from the Arab revolt, and most of their leaders were in exile. The Mufti of Jerusalem, their principal spokesman, refused to accept Jewish statehood. When the UN proposed partition in November 1947, he rejected the plan while the Jews accepted it. In the military struggle that followed, the Palestinians were defeated. Terrorism was used on both sides.

The state of Israel was established on May 14, 1948. Five Arab armies, coming to the aid of the Palestinians, immediately attacked it. Israeli forces defeated the Arab armies, and Israel enlarged its territory. Jordan took the West Bank of the Jordan River, and Egypt took the Gaza Strip. >>

 

[Shaftatplanetquake]

<< well, the israelis had that land taken from them earlier. >>



Did they lose a war and have it taken by their aggressors? If so, thats quite different. The strong should rule over the weak, survival of the fittest. However, there is something messed up about someone taking land from a country and giving it to another party.

It sounds like a lot of the problems going on are being caused by a disruption what is natural. The strong take from the weak- to avoid this from happening you must become strong yourself. People can accept this. However, if the people who hold your land have backing from someone who shouldn't even be there, then there is a big problem.

I don't think people should stick their nose where it doesn't belong. I think the United States should take a more hands-off foriegn policy approach- fix your own problems and keep them fixed; instead of trying to fix other people's problems. All you do is lay the foundation for more problems to arrise.

 

[Random Variable]

<< the british are what caused this whole mess.. they basically promised the land to both the jews and the palestineans. >>


Do you know who were called the Palestinians in 1947?

 

[gopunk]

Did they lose a war and have it taken by their aggressors? If so, thats quite different. The strong should rule over the weak, survival of the fittest.

*nods* which is why the isrealis should not give up occupied territories. israel could demolish the palestineans if it so chose.

However, there is something messed up about someone taking land from a country and giving it to another party.

read up on the topic, nobody took land from a country. land was promised to two parties, to reconcile, they divided it up. one party was not willing to share.

I don't think people should stick their nose where it doesn't belong. I think the United States should take a more hands-off foriegn policy approach- fix your own problems and keep them fixed; instead of trying to fix other people's problems. All you do is lay the foundation for more problems to arrise.

democracy must be defended. btw, if the u.s. stayed out of it, "palestine" would cease to exist.

 

[Random Variable]

The Jewish people didn't take anyone's land. They were given a mere 15-percent of the land that was originally supposed to be the Jewish homeland.

 

[gopunk]

<<

<< the british are what caused this whole mess.. they basically promised the land to both the jews and the palestineans. >>


Do you know who were called the Palestinians in 1947? >>



it's hard to say, from what i gather, they are a people that just sort of accumulated from all the conquests that went on in that region.

edit: oh, i suppose you mean the jews

 

[Random Variable]

<<

<<

<< the british are what caused this whole mess.. they basically promised the land to both the jews and the palestineans. >>


Do you know who were called the Palestinians in 1947? >>



it's hard to say, from what i gather, they are a people that just sort of accumulated from all the conquests that went on in that region.

edit: oh, i suppose you mean the jews >>


Yep, the Jews were called the Palestinians until the state of Israel was created. Then they became the Israelis. But anyways, before the first Zionist settlers came in the late 1800's, nobody wanted to live west of the Jordan River become the land was so barren and neglected.

 

[Random Variable]

I challenge the current Palestinians to trace back their family histories more than a century. What they would most likely discover is that their families immigrated from other parts of the Middle East.

 

[Shaftatplanetquake]

<< I don't think people should stick their nose where it doesn't belong. I think the United States should take a more hands-off foriegn policy approach- fix your own problems and keep them fixed; instead of trying to fix other people's problems. All you do is lay the foundation for more problems to arrise. >>




<< democracy must be defended. >>



Are you saying that any country that decides they are a democracy must have backup from the United States? What if a small town in China starts growing unhappy with the Communist leadership? 5 years from now they succeed in carrying out a coupe upon the local authorities. They elect leaders, and arm themselves with whatever they can. The uprising of this small and secluded area actually remains unchecked for months and then China finally goes to send their army out to destroy them.

Do you think that the United States should declare war on China to defend this newly-formed democracy? You cannot be flakey about defending democracy, if you think we must defend it by striking down the weak, then you must say that we must defend it by striking down the strong.

 

[bsobel]

> UN basically took a nice chunk of land that belonged to Palestine and said,

I was gonna jump in, but it seems most everyone else that has responded got the facts right (unlike the above statement).
Bill

 

[gopunk]

Are you saying that any country that decides they are a democracy must have backup from the United States? What if a small town in China starts growing unhappy with the Communist leadership? 5 years from now they succeed in carrying out a coupe upon the local authorities. They elect leaders, and arm themselves with whatever they can. The uprising of this small and secluded area actually remains unchecked for months and then China finally goes to send their army out to destroy them.

fine, democratic countries.

 

[Nefrodite]

democracy must be defended.

and terrorism shouldn't be encouraged. any progress attained through terrorism on fuels more terrorism.

religious fundamentalism isn't so hot either. they happen to hate jews, christians, and well anyone thats an "infidel". as an agnostic chinese i think i fit the description of who they don't like. best to not support em.

 

[Shaftatplanetquake]

Define country.

Some deny the sovereignity(sp?) of Israel.

 

[gopunk]

<< Define country.
Some deny the sovereignity(sp?) of Israel. >>



some, being some pissant arab states. i don't care what delusions they carry. the rest of the world recognizes israel.

so let me ask you, if you don't think we should be involved there, would you be a-ok with the destruction of "palestine"?

 

[Random Variable]

If I were to say that the people who now call themselves the Palestinians were migrant workers from all over the Middle East who migrated west of the Jordan River starting in the very late 1800's, would that make me a racist or something?

 

[gopunk]

and terrorism shouldn't be encouraged. any progress attained through terrorism on fuels more terrorism.

agreed.

religious fundamentalism isn't so hot either. they happen to hate jews, christians, and well anyone thats an "infidel". as an agnostic chinese i think i fit the description of who they don't like. best to not support em.

yep. i came into this agnostic. but since one side hates me, i think i'll pick the side that is against that side.

 

[Shaftatplanetquake]

<< so let me ask you, if you don't think we should be involved there, would you be a-ok with the destruction of "palestine"? >>



I don't know if I would be a-ok with anything that happens outside of the United States. The natural flow of events has been changed by those who would not let things(people) take care of themselves. Nothing is right now, anything that happens can be blamed on those who stuck their nose in where it didn't belong, instead of accountability lying where it should, with those who take action when the time arrises.

 

[gopunk]

The natural flow of events has been changed by those who would not let things(people) take care of themselves.

like the arab states that attacked israel for the "palestineans"? who, by the way, got their asses handed to them.

i am fine with either what we are doing right now, or completely withdrawing.

 

[Shaftatplanetquake]

The arab states can always claim that they attacked the Isralies for their people, the Islamic people. They talk a good game when it comes to unity, but in practice it always comes down to what the selfish leaders decide what will further their own agenda.

 

[gopunk]

The arab states can always claim that they attacked the Isralies for their people, the Islamic people.

the "palestineans" are not arab, afaik. if you are going to say that unity on the basis of religion (a belief) is acceptable, then unity on the basis of political ideology (also a belief) should also be acceptable.

They talk a good game when it comes to unity, but in practice it always comes down to what the selfish leaders decide what will further their own agenda.

no argument here