While there are missionaries who are there trying to help, often missionaries exacerbate the problems they claim to be solving, such as Mother Theresa's efforts against contraception when she was working in a country where overpopulation is a desperate problem. Interestingly, much of the local population problems in the Calcutta area where she was based was caused by a huge influx of people as a result of religious strife originating from the division of Pakistan and India, which has continued to this day in the Punjab. Overall, though they've almost always had good intentions in their own minds and sometimes had good intentions when judged from the outside, missionary activities considered throughout history have caused far more harm than they've prevented.
Power isn't as simple as that. Religions have to have believers to persist. Christianity needs those fast growing 3rd world countries to be converted in order to maintain its standing as the major world religion, as Islam and Hinduism are centered in regions of expanding population. Even though Christianity is growing at a steady pace because of such conversions, Islam is growing faster and may become the world's largest religion by 2050.
Buddhism espouses a sort of "inter-being", a universal connected-ness. So when you inflict pain on one person, you are inflicting it upon everyone.
I've been getting into it quite a bit these days, (mindfulness that is) and find it very helpfull in every day life. Tich Nacht Hanh has written some particularly interesting books on how to apply mindfulness to modern "western" life. I highly recommend his books. I've found them to be quite enlightening.
There aren't the ulterior motives like some of you are claiming. You have to remember that Christians truly believe that they follow the truth. From their perspective, they feel sorry for those who don't know the truth, and won't get into heaven. So their intentions are (usually) good. They're just trying to share what they know with as many people as they can, so others can benefit too.
Think of it like if you had a time machine. You would be able to tell everyone in 1995 to invest in Amazon, but sell by 2000. If you had the best intentions in mind, you would want to tell everyone you could about it, because you knew something beneficial that they didn't know. (Bad illustration, I know). But it wouldn't be about power or trying to control those people. Take off your conspiracy hats.
Think of it like if you had a time machine. You would be able to tell everyone in 1995 to invest in Amazon, but sell by 2000. If you had the best intentions in mind, you would want to tell everyone you could about it, because you knew something beneficial that they didn't know. (Bad illustration, I know). But it wouldn't be about power or trying to control those people. Take off your conspiracy hats.
Telling people about amazon? No.. the equivalent would be forcing amazon on people, telling them they'll go to hell and suffer for eternity for not using amazon, etc. Their intentions are good only in their own convoluted and abnormally small minds. Various mentalities play into it; a desire for power, fear and the resulting desire for strength in numbers, and wanting to feel good about one's self - greed. The last is the most humorous, since it takes ruining an entire village's customs, culture, and religion to make a few missionaries, who have that last mentality, happy. If you honestly don't think politics and the desire for power play a part in religion, take a look at the Vatican. What was that again about conspiracy hats? :roll:
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
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Well, I'll keep the reasons that I believe in God to myself, it doesn't bother me that others don't believe. But to say as a FACT that all religions are false is ridiculous.
. . .
I can't think of a nice way to say it
I think believing there could be a deity is what's ridiculous.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: Gurck
. . .
I can't think of a nice way to say it
When you've studied all the world's religions in-depth and then say that, then we have an argument. But until you've done that, your statement carries no weight in my eyes.
I know nothing about Astrology. Imagine if I walked into an astrologers conference, stood up and say "I know all there is to know about astrology, because I know Twinkle Twinkle little star". You're doing pretty much the same thing.
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: Gurck
. . .
I can't think of a nice way to say it
When you've studies all the world's religions in-depth and then say that, then we have an argument. But until you've done that, your statement carries no weight in my eyes.
Sorry if it sounded harsh, I certainly don't make it the basis for my assessment of people, or anything close. But you did attack my belief first... I don't need to study religion to come to my conclusion. Apples and oranges.
Not the same thing; this isn't a Christian forum; not even close.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,727
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Actually, I did not attack your belief first. Not at all. I attacked the guy at the begining fo the thread who said that "Religion is just a cop-out". Basically, that all religions are rubbish. I think if someone is going to pass judgement an all religions being false, yes, they have to study each one of the worlds religions extensively. How else can one pass judgement? Ignorance of something does not allow one to make decisions about it.Originally posted by: Gurck
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: Gurck
. . .
I can't think of a nice way to say it
When you've studies all the world's religions in-depth and then say that, then we have an argument. But until you've done that, your statement carries no weight in my eyes.
Sorry if it sounded harsh, I certainly don't make it the basis for my assessment of people, or anything close. But you did attack my belief first... I don't need to study religion to come to my conclusion. Apples and oranges.
Not the same thing; this isn't a Christian forum; not even close.[/quote]
That's true, but that's not what I meant. I meant that passing judgement on something that he knew nothing about is just as ridiculous.
You certainly didn't say "Gurck's beliefs are wrong!" but you did say it's ridiculous to feel a certain way - a way I happen to feel I don't think I need to study religions to feel they're false, as each relies on the existence of a deity, which I see as an impossibility. Again though, it's not a big deal to me unless & until people go around shoving it down others' throats. One of my closest friends is actually a devout Catholic. Anyway, got your :beer:s ready for the game?
I don't think I need to study religions to feel they're false, as each relies on the existence of a deity, which I see as an impossibility. Again though, it's not a big deal to me unless & until people go around shoving it down others' throats. One of my closest friends is actually a devout Catholic. Anyway, got your :beer:s ready for the game? No, it would be telling them that if they didn't sell, they'd lose their life savings. A harsh message, but it would be the truth. Remember, Christians believe their message to be truth. And forcing it on people? How many people in the last 100 years have had religion forced on them? Let's forget about the Crusades, and talk about things that have happened in the past 50 generations.
You've proven my point about conspiracy hats. Were you trying to make a point against me? Because you only validated my statement.
Power, fear, greed? Get over it man. They just want more people to go to heaven with them.because of the fundamental detriment to Deific religion - that there's no room for reeavluation. Its just mindless trumpeting of tenets, regardless of what the current situation puts forth. Only the most labotomized of people would preach against contraception when population control was reaching epidemic dangers.
Western religion IS stagnancy, and one's level of religiousity is simply defined by how far they are willing to go to retrofit the world around them into the antiquated belief system that the Religion provides.
Quite a few. What do you think missionaries do?
I've proven your point?
You've proven my point about conspiracy hats. Were you trying to make a point against me? Because you only validated my statement.
You didn't even explain the Vatican, the central office of church politics. But the church isn't political, eh? You're giving the human subconcious far too little credit. People in all walks of life make tremendous leaps of logic about all manner of things to rationalize their subconscious drives. The religious are no different.
That's true, but that's not what I meant. I meant that passing judgement on something that he knew nothing about is just as ridiculous.[/quote]Originally posted by: ThePresence
Actually, I did not attack your belief first. Not at all. I attacked the guy at the begining fo the thread who said that "Religion is just a cop-out". Basically, that all religions are rubbish. I think if someone is going to pass judgement an all religions being false, yes, they have to study each one of the worlds religions extensively. How else can one pass judgement? Ignorance of something does not allow one to make decisions about it.Originally posted by: Gurck
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: Gurck
. . .
I can't think of a nice way to say it
When you've studies all the world's religions in-depth and then say that, then we have an argument. But until you've done that, your statement carries no weight in my eyes.
Sorry if it sounded harsh, I certainly don't make it the basis for my assessment of people, or anything close. But you did attack my belief first... I don't need to study religion to come to my conclusion. Apples and oranges.
Not the same thing; this isn't a Christian forum; not even close.
I very much agree with you ThePresence. Being with a religious girlfriend (I was an Athiest before I met her) has shown me one very big thing and it has totally changed the way I look at religion(s).
I've asked 10,001 questions... what if, what about, how come, but you said... What I realized is that (at least I've come to believe) there is absolutely nothing that says that some form of God cannot exist. Even if science tells us how our universe was created and it tells us that there were other universes before and that there are many to come, science cannot prove that the origins of the origin and everything else (past, present and future) in this world are not somehow influenced by a God.
Anothe thing I've come to realize is that if there is a God you will not find it looking the way everyone else does. You will find him in the way you are supposed to.
I still find it doubtful, but I have seen that it cannot be denied.
gsaldivar
Diamond Member
- Apr 30, 2001
- 8,691
- 1
- 81
I don't really have anything against religion itself...
It's the fvcking annoying bible-thumpers who incessantly proselytize their beliefs to people who make it clear that they ARE NOT INTERESTED in hearing about it that really get on my nerves.
Believe what you want. Just don't repeatedly insist on telling me about it, because honestly - I don't give a fvck.
Sure... bible-thumpers have a right to free-speech. But that's not a free ticket to continually hound people about their faith .
Don't non-believers also have a right to enjoy a diffferent faith, or their lack of one altogether?
It's the fvcking annoying bible-thumpers who incessantly proselytize their beliefs to people who make it clear that they ARE NOT INTERESTED in hearing about it that really get on my nerves.
Believe what you want. Just don't repeatedly insist on telling me about it, because honestly - I don't give a fvck.
Sure... bible-thumpers have a right to free-speech. But that's not a free ticket to continually hound people about their faith .
Don't non-believers also have a right to enjoy a diffferent faith, or their lack of one altogether?
Science.
Logic.
Religion has done a lot for the species, and I agree with many of its tenets, especially those about how to treat your fellow man (well, maybe Islam and I don't quite see eye to eye on that - I'm against treating my fellow man with explosives...).
It helps to motivate people and taught us that society is greater than the sum of its parts; put a genius in the woods, will s/he live as comfortably as s/he will in society? Will s/he build a nuclear plant for electricity, a supermarket to buy food in, a movie theatre for entertainment?
The problem is that it's no longer necessary; we all know that by living in & following the rules of society we can be happier and more comfortable. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, just as a few hairs will stand up after a fresh combing despite their 150,000 neighbors lying against the head in orderly fashion.
It's unfortunate that it took so long, likely because it had to combat our aggressive tendencies. Long enough for it to become ingrained in our genetic make-up; much like the tendency toward learning a language and toward fearing heights, snakes, and spiders. It helped us to better survive when doing so was a lot more difficult than in modern society, and so those who followed it were more likely to pass on their genes, and to do so more frequently.
It's now genetic code which is no longer needed, and indeed holds us back - much like the genetic code responsible for eating a lot in times of plenty so as to better prepare for times of little food.
- Oct 9, 1999
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Jehovah's Witnesses. Those people don't know how to take a hint. Even if they catch me at the door, I try to tell them nicely that I don't want to hear what they have to say. One even had the nerve to stick his foot in my door when I tried to close it. I simply pulled the door back a little, and slammed it in his face.
Yay! A religious thread that actually has debate and not flaming. But we'll see how far it goes.
Yes there are people that really force their faiths on you. But it definately is not as bad as people seem to protray it here on ATOT. Most people I know and have seen will go away if you politely ask them to. It's just that people who hate religion tend to blow these incidents way out of proportion.
In response to Astaroth's opinion of missionary work. I find that the majority of the missionary agencies that are in other countries DON'T do the old bait and switch as you claim they do. Actually the majority of them are simply there to share their faiths and not provide for physical needs. There are some agencies that do - but they don't push their faiths anywhere as near as you assert. I see capitalism more at fault at changing people's cultures. Its money and businesses that go to 3rd world countries that do more damage to "cultures" as you assert.
EDIT: BTW I'm talking from a conservative Christian stance (theologically, not politically) so the Catholic church, Jehovah's witnesses don't fall into the category
Yes there are people that really force their faiths on you. But it definately is not as bad as people seem to protray it here on ATOT. Most people I know and have seen will go away if you politely ask them to. It's just that people who hate religion tend to blow these incidents way out of proportion.
In response to Astaroth's opinion of missionary work. I find that the majority of the missionary agencies that are in other countries DON'T do the old bait and switch as you claim they do. Actually the majority of them are simply there to share their faiths and not provide for physical needs. There are some agencies that do - but they don't push their faiths anywhere as near as you assert. I see capitalism more at fault at changing people's cultures. Its money and businesses that go to 3rd world countries that do more damage to "cultures" as you assert.
EDIT: BTW I'm talking from a conservative Christian stance (theologically, not politically) so the Catholic church, Jehovah's witnesses don't fall into the category
Well I don't think you missed the rest of my post (even though you only quoted part of it). You say science and logic can prove that some form of God cannot exist. I used to think exactly the same way almost my entire life. I disagree with that now. I believe that everything in our world is a product of a system that may or may not follow some type of order (I guess I'd say that it appears to be chaotic in nature but on the largest scale could be quite graceful and predictable - but that is another thread
). I also believe that this system does not need to be mutually exclusive from a God in order to exist. In otherwords, I believe that everything in this world has a logical explanation that includes evolution and all other laws of nature/physics/math/etc, and those laws do not prevent a God from existing and influencing or just sitting back and watching.Edit:
Also know, I still don't believe in God
Do you guys think the Jehovah's Witnesses keep count of how many followers they have? What do they do if they get 144,001 followers? Who doesn't get to go? lol
I've read some material that they gave to my family (a hard cover book explaining evolution, etc). The only way someone could actually believe the things that are said (either blatent lying, things taken totally out of context, etc) would be if you were totally isolated from all knowledge of biology. It's warps my mind how they could even get someone to publish the book.
Oh and in response to NFS4's initial question. You can't really know 100% for sure if you're Christian, muslim, Atheist,etc - that your belief system is the "right" one. You can look at the evidences that surround and point to your faith - but in the end it is still a "leap of faith" as others have indicated.
For me, the evidences pointing to the legitimacy of Christianity are too strong to ignore.
Fun fact: Actually other religions DO have missionaries - but not seemingly as much as Christianity. Islam has a high number IIRC.
For me, the evidences pointing to the legitimacy of Christianity are too strong to ignore.
Fun fact: Actually other religions DO have missionaries - but not seemingly as much as Christianity. Islam has a high number IIRC.
Originally posted by: Stefan
Well I don't think you missed the rest of my post (even though you only quoted part of it). You say science and logic can prove that some form of God cannot exist. I used to think exactly the same way almost my entire life. I disagree with that now. I believe that everything in our world is a product of a system that may or may not follow some type of order (I guess I'd say that it appears to be chaotic in nature but on the largest scale could be quite graceful and predictable - but that is another thread
Edit:
Also know, I still don't believe in God
I certainly wasn't trying to quote you out of context or anything, it's just that full and heavily nested quotes can obscure posts and annoy readers, so I usually try to keep a more simple look to my replies.
While your beliefs are your perogative, I wouldn't call them logic. That's not an insult; a lot of great things don't follow logic, women being a good example
But all the same, they're not. The idea of a deity is only logical when one observes the effects that belief in it has on human behavior $$$$$
I agree. And in doing so, they're using their targets' poverty as leverage to promote their religion. Which is manipulative and, in my ever-so-humble opinion, quite wrong.
How would you get much more conservative than the Catholics? I guess you could claim early sects like the Ebionites were more conservative, but they're not around any longer.
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