Question about racing an automatic car.

[J0hnny]

aftermarket companies can reprogram your ECU so that automatic tranny shift occurs at a more aggressive RPM.

 

[wellerdball]

Originally posted by: Garfang
When "Racing" mom's Camry, just floor it and let it do its thing. It knows what it's doing, and it's doing the best it can.

haha or accord

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: MiataGirl

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: MiataGirl
the best way would be to replace it with a manual gearbox

but really, if you want the best start possible, hold down your brake, rev up your engine, and release the brake. and if you car has a good amount of power (i.e. you get lots of wheel spin if you floor it), give it just enough gas so that you get traction then floor it.

Wrong. I need some evidence to back up why you would recommend to change to a manual when we are talking about DRAG RACING!

umm..okay..i'm wrong? where's your evidence?

i just know that with 95% of the production cars out there that are offered with both manual and auto form, the manual is often a good deal faster than the auto.

and if someone wants to find gear ratio numbers from both an auto and manual car, for example a 4sp auto and a 5 sp manual, you'll find the manual is definitely better equipped for acceleration.

i wouldn't know where to find numbers..but for example it'd go something like this:

Car 1 - 4 sp auto (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th gears): 3.0, 2.2, 1.2, .8
Car 2 - 5 sp manual (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gears): 3.3, 2.5, 1.7, 1.2, .8

now those numbers are obviously entirely made up..but generally you'll find the overdrive gear to be the same, the 2nd to last gear to be pretty similar too, but it's the first few gears that make the difference.

Look you don't know what the hell you are talking about ok? First of all that fact that you said TC make an automatic slower, is one of the most asinine car related things I have ever read on this board. You said a manual was wider gear ratios. Why would you want that? For top speed yes, but for stoplight to stoplight(which is what the poster alludes to)you want ratios that are close together. LAUST also made a great post in this thread but you ignored that. If you ever want to learn things about cars don't spout random BS that your read or hear in passing. Actually do some research or talk to some people who have fast cars or who are track whores. Lower ratio gears are not always wanted. If you are making a good bit of power you would tend to stick with a higher gear ratio that someone who is only lightly modded or has no traction problems.

You argument that manuals have a lower numerical gear would be valid if you knew anything about gear ratios. The easiest thing to do on a drag car(Who would drag in a FWD?)except for on an AWD(RWD is better for dragging) is to changed the rear end gears. No one is going to be running a stock ratio unless their setup has to have them or they are only a casual racer.

If you understood the whole principle behind switching rear end gears and CLOSELY spaced ratios then you would have a basic understanding of drag racing as it relates to transmission. Notice I said basic because there is so MUCH more that is needed to be sucessful.

How would a TC be negative on a good automatic? Explain to me what type of gear ratios would be best for a T-56 or AOD in a 400HP car. I promise you that me and LAUST both could make a dead on recommendation for both of those transmissions.

BTW, yeah you are wrong.

 

[toant103]

Originally posted by: Techie333
Well....when ur racing an automatic car....is it better to just floor it and let the engine do the shifting or when say u get around 4000 rpms.....should u release the pedal so it changes the gears real quick?

can you rev it in Neutral then shift to D?

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: toant103

Originally posted by: Techie333
Well....when ur racing an automatic car....is it better to just floor it and let the engine do the shifting or when say u get around 4000 rpms.....should u release the pedal so it changes the gears real quick?

can you rev it in Neutral then shift to D?

That is neutral dropping and a good way to end up buying a new transmission quickly.

 

[MiataGirl]

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: MiataGirl

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: MiataGirl
the best way would be to replace it with a manual gearbox

but really, if you want the best start possible, hold down your brake, rev up your engine, and release the brake. and if you car has a good amount of power (i.e. you get lots of wheel spin if you floor it), give it just enough gas so that you get traction then floor it.

Wrong. I need some evidence to back up why you would recommend to change to a manual when we are talking about DRAG RACING!

umm..okay..i'm wrong? where's your evidence?

i just know that with 95% of the production cars out there that are offered with both manual and auto form, the manual is often a good deal faster than the auto.

and if someone wants to find gear ratio numbers from both an auto and manual car, for example a 4sp auto and a 5 sp manual, you'll find the manual is definitely better equipped for acceleration.

i wouldn't know where to find numbers..but for example it'd go something like this:

Car 1 - 4 sp auto (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th gears): 3.0, 2.2, 1.2, .8
Car 2 - 5 sp manual (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gears): 3.3, 2.5, 1.7, 1.2, .8

now those numbers are obviously entirely made up..but generally you'll find the overdrive gear to be the same, the 2nd to last gear to be pretty similar too, but it's the first few gears that make the difference.

Look you don't know what the hell you are talking about ok? First of all that fact that you said TC make an automatic slower, is one of the most asinine car related things I have ever read on this board. You said a manual was wider gear ratios. Why would you want that? For top speed yes, but for stoplight to stoplight(which is what the poster alludes to)you want ratios that are close together. LAUST also made a great post in this thread but you ignored that. If you ever want to learn things about cars don't spout random BS that your read or hear in passing. Actually do some research or talk to some people who have fast cars or who are track whores. Lower ratio gears are not always wanted. If you are making a good bit of power you would tend to stick with a higher gear ratio that someone who is only lightly modded or has no traction problems.

You argument that manuals have a lower numerical gear would be valid if you knew anything about gear ratios. The easiest thing to do on a drag car(Who would drag in a FWD?)except for on an AWD(RWD is better for dragging) is to changed the rear end gears. No one is going to be running a stock ratio unless their setup has to have them or they are only a casual racer.

If you understood the whole principle behind switching rear end gears and CLOSELY spaced ratios then you would have a basic understanding of drag racing as it relates to transmission. Notice I said basic because there is so MUCH more that is needed to be sucessful.

How would a TC be negative on a good automatic? Explain to me what type of gear ratios would be best for a T-56 or AOD in a 400HP car. I promise you that me and LAUST both could make a dead on recommendation for both of those transmissions.

BTW, yeah you are wrong.

wow that was perhaps the cockiest, most arrogant post i've ever read here, which is saying quite a lot. congrats! all your insults and childish comments truly made your argument valid.

first of all, i don't think the guy who posted is a top fuel dragster, and i'm just going to assume he doesn't have a souped up transmission in his car.

secondly, how could you possibly say RWD is better for dragging? awd provides the best launches, and you will consistently see awd cars pulling better 60' numbers than other rwd cars. and you cannot argue that those 60' numbers don't make a difference in the end. take for example the WRX. it doesn't nearly have as much power as say, a z28, and would lose badly in a race from a roll..but if you are to properly launch both cars from a start, the wrx will take the initial lead.

that brings me to my next point. on a STANDARD car..i've been assuming we haven't been talking about NHRA circuit type cars here..you will almost always find that with a proper driver, a manual car will be anywhere from a half second to a full second faster in a quarter mile race. the numbers prove it. with better launches and more optimized gear ratios, the manual will more often than not triumph over the its auto equivalent. that is hardly debatable.

as for the torque converter issue, it has been my understanding that if you were to dyno two equivalent cars at the wheels (their transmisison being the variable), the manual will provide higher numbers than the auto. am i wrong to say that? of course as technology goes on the difference will become more and more negligible, but just a few years ago that would always have been the case.

 

[Zenmervolt]

secondly, how could you possibly say RWD is better for dragging? awd provides the best launches, and you will consistently see awd cars pulling better 60' numbers than other rwd cars.

Drag races last a lot longer than 60'. Also, given the weight transfer in acceleration, RWD is the best option since it's sending the power to the wheels with the most traction. AWD is an extra couple hundred pounds (most of which is roataing mass which makes it 3-4 times harder to accelerate than normal mass) that you don't want to have.

Most standard torque converters do sap a little bit of power, but not a whole lot. This doesn't matter if you have a locking torque converter though since once it locks you're not losing power, and the extra cushion from the torque converter is helpful when shifting to avoid breaking the tires loose between shifts.

ZV

EDIT:

but just a few years ago that would always have been the case.

Making statements that are absolute is very rarely a wise thing. In this case, it's not since you're incorrect. For most road-going cars, this is true, but it is far from the case with all automatics.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: MiataGirl

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: MiataGirl

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: MiataGirl
the best way would be to replace it with a manual gearbox

but really, if you want the best start possible, hold down your brake, rev up your engine, and release the brake. and if you car has a good amount of power (i.e. you get lots of wheel spin if you floor it), give it just enough gas so that you get traction then floor it.

Wrong. I need some evidence to back up why you would recommend to change to a manual when we are talking about DRAG RACING!

umm..okay..i'm wrong? where's your evidence?

i just know that with 95% of the production cars out there that are offered with both manual and auto form, the manual is often a good deal faster than the auto.

and if someone wants to find gear ratio numbers from both an auto and manual car, for example a 4sp auto and a 5 sp manual, you'll find the manual is definitely better equipped for acceleration.

i wouldn't know where to find numbers..but for example it'd go something like this:

Car 1 - 4 sp auto (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th gears): 3.0, 2.2, 1.2, .8
Car 2 - 5 sp manual (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gears): 3.3, 2.5, 1.7, 1.2, .8

now those numbers are obviously entirely made up..but generally you'll find the overdrive gear to be the same, the 2nd to last gear to be pretty similar too, but it's the first few gears that make the difference.

Look you don't know what the hell you are talking about ok? First of all that fact that you said TC make an automatic slower, is one of the most asinine car related things I have ever read on this board. You said a manual was wider gear ratios. Why would you want that? For top speed yes, but for stoplight to stoplight(which is what the poster alludes to)you want ratios that are close together. LAUST also made a great post in this thread but you ignored that. If you ever want to learn things about cars don't spout random BS that your read or hear in passing. Actually do some research or talk to some people who have fast cars or who are track whores. Lower ratio gears are not always wanted. If you are making a good bit of power you would tend to stick with a higher gear ratio that someone who is only lightly modded or has no traction problems.

You argument that manuals have a lower numerical gear would be valid if you knew anything about gear ratios. The easiest thing to do on a drag car(Who would drag in a FWD?)except for on an AWD(RWD is better for dragging) is to changed the rear end gears. No one is going to be running a stock ratio unless their setup has to have them or they are only a casual racer.

If you understood the whole principle behind switching rear end gears and CLOSELY spaced ratios then you would have a basic understanding of drag racing as it relates to transmission. Notice I said basic because there is so MUCH more that is needed to be sucessful.

How would a TC be negative on a good automatic? Explain to me what type of gear ratios would be best for a T-56 or AOD in a 400HP car. I promise you that me and LAUST both could make a dead on recommendation for both of those transmissions.

BTW, yeah you are wrong.

wow that was perhaps the cockiest, most arrogant post i've ever read here, which is saying quite a lot. congrats! all your insults and childish comments truly made your argument valid.

first of all, i don't think the guy who posted is a top fuel dragster, and i'm just going to assume he doesn't have a souped up transmission in his car.

secondly, how could you possibly say RWD is better for dragging? awd provides the best launches, and you will consistently see awd cars pulling better 60' numbers than other rwd cars. and you cannot argue that those 60' numbers don't make a difference in the end. take for example the WRX. it doesn't nearly have as much power as say, a z28, and would lose badly in a race from a roll..but if you are to properly launch both cars from a start, the wrx will take the initial lead.

that brings me to my next point. on a STANDARD car..i've been assuming we haven't been talking about NHRA circuit type cars here..you will almost always find that with a proper driver, a manual car will be anywhere from a half second to a full second faster in a quarter mile race. the numbers prove it. with better launches and more optimized gear ratios, the manual will more often than not triumph over the its auto equivalent. that is hardly debatable.

as for the torque converter issue, it has been my understanding that if you were to dyno two equivalent cars at the wheels (their transmisison being the variable), the manual will provide higher numbers than the auto. am i wrong to say that? of course as technology goes on the difference will become more and more negligible, but just a few years ago that would always have been the case.

You are still wrong. AWD is not better for dragging. In no way is an auto .5 to 1 second slower in the 1/4. You have no clue what you are talking about. When you get a clue let me know. Until then you are a lost cause. If you would LISTEN when people who know what they are talking about tell you something, then you might learn something. I don't need any insults or "childish" comments to make my argument valid. It was valid from the start and you are still wrong. I take offense to someone giving out incorrect information when several people in this thread are telling you that your ideas are not true. AWD does not always launch better than RWD. Sub 1.6x 60 ft times are hard to come by in a stock driveline AWD,whereas a stock driveline RWD could easily cut sub 1.6 60 ft times with slicks.

Dragging does not constitute top fuel nor funny cars. It applies to any straight line race.


" with better launches and more optimized gear ratios, the manual will more often than not triumph over the its auto equivalent. that is hardly debatable."

You are right it isn't debatable because that statement is still wrong. Do you have any idea what a stall is?

"as for the torque converter issue, it has been my understanding that if you were to dyno two equivalent cars at the wheels (their transmisison being the variable), the manual will provide higher numbers than the auto."

In case of a stock convertor you lose typically 3-4% more driveline power than a manual. Any aftermarket convertors make much more torque and HP than a manual.

What transmissions and gear ratios do you want to compare?

4R70W to t-56? t-5? t-45? AOD? E40D? C4? C6? Powerglide? Tremec TKO?

You tell me.

BTW, yeah you are still wrong.

 

[Iron Woode]

It would seem that miatagirl is comparing todays fwd cars to each other rather than to real cars.

Real cars are difficult for todays drivers to comprehend. More than 4 cylinders? RWD? 3.55 and up gear ratios? They have no clue what that is all about.

Even Tomsbrain can't fully grasp manually shifting an automatic. Here is how it works: assuming there are detents for each gear, you simply hold the shifter in the desired gear untill you decide to shift it to the next detent. Very simple. No real thinking needed, except for shifting at a sane rpm.

Autos are just simply better for racing rwd vehicles.

Gear multiplication is also difficult for some people here. Take a tranny's gear ratio (say 3:1) and multiply it by the rear gear ratio (say 3:1) and you got a 9:1 gear multiplication. This will allow you to calculate just how hard a launch you can do.

And yes, only a fool uses an auto for circle track racing. Just keeping it cool would be a difficult job.

Stall speed can be a mystery too. All it is is the rpm the TC will flash to and at which point the flow of fluid through the vanes (impellers) stops moving or stalls. This is similar to side stepping your clutch.

It is also important to make sure that your car is a complete package rather than hashed up piece. The combination of parts must work together properly in order to get the most out of your car. This requires a lot of planning and research. In other words; don't imitate the import crowd by putting on mismatched junk in a vain attempt to out rice your competition. Function should be the priority not looks.