Question about hollow point bullets

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: jtvang125
Hollowpoint or not, bullets from today's assault rifles still cause a great deal of damage to the individual. I have a picture of a pumpkin shot with an AR15 (similar to the M16). The entry hole is about the size of a nickel but the exit wound totally ripped the rear of the pumpkin off. Of course a pumpkin is more fragile than the human body but you can clearly see the amount of damage being done.

LOL, you said assault rifle. Spank yourself.

 

[BuckNaked]

There are no absolutes on how any given round or bullet type will perform in any given situation, there are just too many variables...

In the OP's post, with out knowing what level of protection the vest afforded (NIJ Level IIA, II, IIIA, III... etc., they are designed to offer certain levels of protection against different rounds), the caliber of weapon, what condition the vest was in (the material deteriorates over time, exposure to heat, sweat, being washed...), what type of material the vest is made of (there are many types of material used other than kevlar), how close was the shot fired (some material will actually melt from the muzzle blast from a weapon fired at contact distance... there has been a huge recall on vests made from a certain material called Zylon), how many shots were fired (when a round is stopped, the vest suffers damage and begins to lose the ability to stop rounds in the same area) and on and on....

In regards to some other posts in the tread... Hydrashocks were an excellent round in there day, but the design of the hollowpoint is about 20 years old, and has been surpassed by other bullet designs, and is not really the best choice for a defensive round any longer. The post in the hollowpoint has been known to aid in clothing 'clogging' the hollowpoint as it passes through, and not allowing the bullet to expand as it was intended. Better choices for handguns would be, Speer Gold Dot or other brands using the Gold Dot bullet, Winchester Ranger (not easily found, as Winchester classifies it as Law Enforcement Only, but its legal for anyone to own and use if you can find it for sale), and Cor-Bon DPX.

The Hague Convention, which the US never signed, was the treaty that refrains the use of 'Dum-Dum' rounds or hollowpoints. The US Military has generally used FMJ rounds in most all of its military weapons for whatever reason... certain military Special Operations units use hollowpoints as there standard round in some of there small arms. The Mk 262 round for the SPR and other 'accurized' versions of the M-16, while not widely issued, are by design hollowpoints or more accurately in this case called OTM or Open Tip Match rounds. The hollow point adds to the overall accuracy by moving the center of gravity behind the centerline of the bullet (this is my understanding for the reasoning behind it, but not 100% sure of that)...

FMJ jacket rounds are not the same as armor piercing... FMJ only means that the lead portion of the bullet is encased in a copper jacket. If the tip was left open and a small portion of lead was exposed, it would generally be considered a soft-point, and if there were a hollow cavity at the tip, it would be a hollow-point. The FMJ round will generally penetrate obstacles a little better than the other designs will, but not anything like an armor piercing round. An armor piercing round is generally made up of a hardened tungsten steel body rather than lead, and encased in a copper jacket, and thats what gives it the ability to penetrate.


Dave

 

[jtvang125]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: jtvang125
Hollowpoint or not, bullets from today's assault rifles still cause a great deal of damage to the individual. I have a picture of a pumpkin shot with an AR15 (similar to the M16). The entry hole is about the size of a nickel but the exit wound totally ripped the rear of the pumpkin off. Of course a pumpkin is more fragile than the human body but you can clearly see the amount of damage being done.

LOL, you said assault rifle. Spank yourself.

I only mentioned assault rifles because of the talk about war and warfare. What is the point of banning hollowpoints in warfare if today's assault rifles cause just as much damage, if not more than using hollowpoints?

 

[Baked]

Originally posted by: AndrewR
Fact is that I'll be shooting to kill -- why does the amount of damage I can do with each round really matter? Fine for the academics but not for the person trying to defend himself.
!

Try head shot, it saves bullets and ensures your absolute victory.

 

[pulsedrive]

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked
An armor piercing round is generally made up of a hardened tungsten steel body rather than lead, and encased in a copper jacket, and thats what gives it the ability to penetrate.


Dave

Depends on what kind of AP round you are talking about, the REALLY good ones are coated in teflon. *evil grin*

Then if you really want to get evil you have the Uranium 234(?) core rounds, that will pierce the armor of the tank and then bounce around inside like a superball.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: jtvang125

Originally posted by: TallBill

LOL, you said assault rifle. Spank yourself.

I only mentioned assault rifles because of the talk about war and warfare. What is the point of banning hollowpoints in warfare if today's assault rifles cause just as much damage, if not more than using hollowpoints?

I was referring to the term "assault rifle" coined by gun haters. According to the people that created the name, the weapon itself is more dangerous because of a flash hider, collapsable buttstock, grenade launcher, and bayonet lug... oh and extra rounds in a magazine

 

[BuckNaked]

Originally posted by: pulsedrive

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked
An armor piercing round is generally made up of a hardened tungsten steel body rather than lead, and encased in a copper jacket, and thats what gives it the ability to penetrate.


Dave

Depends on what kind of AP round you are talking about, the REALLY good ones are coated in teflon. *evil grin*

Then if you really want to get evil you have the Uranium 234(?) core rounds, that will pierce the armor of the tank and then bounce around inside like a superball.

Teflon coating can't hold up to a metal utensil when its used in a frying pan... how well do you think it will stick to a bullet going down a barrel at 1,000 to 3,000 feet per second? Other than media hype, find me a teflon coated armor piercing round that does something other than protect the barrel from damage... it doesn't aid in penetration.

 

[jtvang125]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: jtvang125

Originally posted by: TallBill

LOL, you said assault rifle. Spank yourself.

I only mentioned assault rifles because of the talk about war and warfare. What is the point of banning hollowpoints in warfare if today's assault rifles cause just as much damage, if not more than using hollowpoints?

I was referring to the term "assault rifle" coined by gun haters. According to the people that created the name, the weapon itself is more dangerous because of a flash hider, collapsable buttstock, grenade launcher, and bayonet lug... oh and extra rounds in a magazine

Hmm, never heard of that. I always thought the term was given to rifles intended mainly for military use.

 

[pulsedrive]

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked

Originally posted by: pulsedrive

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked
An armor piercing round is generally made up of a hardened tungsten steel body rather than lead, and encased in a copper jacket, and thats what gives it the ability to penetrate.


Dave

Depends on what kind of AP round you are talking about, the REALLY good ones are coated in teflon. *evil grin*

Then if you really want to get evil you have the Uranium 234(?) core rounds, that will pierce the armor of the tank and then bounce around inside like a superball.

Teflon coating can't hold up to a metal utensil when its used in a frying pan... how well do you think it will stick to a bullet going down a barrel at 1,000 to 3,000 feet per second? Other than media hype, find me a teflon coated armor piercing round that does something other than protect the barrel from damage... it doesn't aid in penetration.

You are in fact correct, I appologize for the assumption on my part. But the link is a neat bit of explanation for the use of teflon, Which as BN said, is actually for protecting the rifling.
http://www.answers.com/topic/teflon-coated-bullet

 

[BuckNaked]

Originally posted by: pulsedrive

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked

Originally posted by: pulsedrive

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked
An armor piercing round is generally made up of a hardened tungsten steel body rather than lead, and encased in a copper jacket, and thats what gives it the ability to penetrate.


Dave

Depends on what kind of AP round you are talking about, the REALLY good ones are coated in teflon. *evil grin*

Then if you really want to get evil you have the Uranium 234(?) core rounds, that will pierce the armor of the tank and then bounce around inside like a superball.

Teflon coating can't hold up to a metal utensil when its used in a frying pan... how well do you think it will stick to a bullet going down a barrel at 1,000 to 3,000 feet per second? Other than media hype, find me a teflon coated armor piercing round that does something other than protect the barrel from damage... it doesn't aid in penetration.

You are in fact correct, I appologize for the assumption on my part. But the link is a neat bit of explanation for the use of teflon, Which as BN said, is actually for protecting the rifling.
http://www.answers.com/topic/teflon-coated-bullet

Behold the power of the media... if they say something loud enough or say it enough times, it can become widely accepted as fact, whether its true or not...

I applaud you for your willingness to look for your own answer... well done!

 

[Azndude51]

Wow, I didn't realize that my simple question would cause such a debate over warfare and weapons.

 

[Chiller2]

Originally posted by: Azndude51
I was watching a show where a cop was shot. They mentioned that the bullet was a hollow point round and that it went straight through the vest. I thought hollow points were poor at penetrating armor. How likely is it that a FHP bullet from a handgun penetrates a cop's vest? I thought FMJ rounds were armor piercing, but I don't know much about guns besides what I see/hear from games and movies.

Typical anti-gun Hollywood hype and ignorance. A hollow point bullet is a lot less likly to penatrate any bullet resistant vest than a FMJ round.

 

[pclstyle]

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked
There are no absolutes on how any given round or bullet type will perform in any given situation, there are just too many variables...

In the OP's post, with out knowing what level of protection the vest afforded (NIJ Level IIA, II, IIIA, III... etc., they are designed to offer certain levels of protection against different rounds), the caliber of weapon, what condition the vest was in (the material deteriorates over time, exposure to heat, sweat, being washed...), what type of material the vest is made of (there are many types of material used other than kevlar), how close was the shot fired (some material will actually melt from the muzzle blast from a weapon fired at contact distance... there has been a huge recall on vests made from a certain material called Zylon), how many shots were fired (when a round is stopped, the vest suffers damage and begins to lose the ability to stop rounds in the same area) and on and on....

In regards to some other posts in the tread... Hydrashocks were an excellent round in there day, but the design of the hollowpoint is about 20 years old, and has been surpassed by other bullet designs, and is not really the best choice for a defensive round any longer. The post in the hollowpoint has been known to aid in clothing 'clogging' the hollowpoint as it passes through, and not allowing the bullet to expand as it was intended. Better choices for handguns would be, Speer Gold Dot or other brands using the Gold Dot bullet, Winchester Ranger (not easily found, as Winchester classifies it as Law Enforcement Only, but its legal for anyone to own and use if you can find it for sale), and Cor-Bon DPX.

The Hague Convention, which the US never signed, was the treaty that refrains the use of 'Dum-Dum' rounds or hollowpoints. The US Military has generally used FMJ rounds in most all of its military weapons for whatever reason... certain military Special Operations units use hollowpoints as there standard round in some of there small arms. The Mk 262 round for the SPR and other 'accurized' versions of the M-16, while not widely issued, are by design hollowpoints or more accurately in this case called OTM or Open Tip Match rounds. The hollow point adds to the overall accuracy by moving the center of gravity behind the centerline of the bullet (this is my understanding for the reasoning behind it, but not 100% sure of that)...

FMJ jacket rounds are not the same as armor piercing... FMJ only means that the lead portion of the bullet is encased in a copper jacket. If the tip was left open and a small portion of lead was exposed, it would generally be considered a soft-point, and if there were a hollow cavity at the tip, it would be a hollow-point. The FMJ round will generally penetrate obstacles a little better than the other designs will, but not anything like an armor piercing round. An armor piercing round is generally made up of a hardened tungsten steel body rather than lead, and encased in a copper jacket, and thats what gives it the ability to penetrate.


Dave

informative and sexy.

 

[BuckNaked]

Originally posted by: pclstyle

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked
There are no absolutes on how any given round or bullet type will perform in any given situation, there are just too many variables...

In the OP's post, with out knowing what level of protection the vest afforded (NIJ Level IIA, II, IIIA, III... etc., they are designed to offer certain levels of protection against different rounds), the caliber of weapon, what condition the vest was in (the material deteriorates over time, exposure to heat, sweat, being washed...), what type of material the vest is made of (there are many types of material used other than kevlar), how close was the shot fired (some material will actually melt from the muzzle blast from a weapon fired at contact distance... there has been a huge recall on vests made from a certain material called Zylon), how many shots were fired (when a round is stopped, the vest suffers damage and begins to lose the ability to stop rounds in the same area) and on and on....

In regards to some other posts in the tread... Hydrashocks were an excellent round in there day, but the design of the hollowpoint is about 20 years old, and has been surpassed by other bullet designs, and is not really the best choice for a defensive round any longer. The post in the hollowpoint has been known to aid in clothing 'clogging' the hollowpoint as it passes through, and not allowing the bullet to expand as it was intended. Better choices for handguns would be, Speer Gold Dot or other brands using the Gold Dot bullet, Winchester Ranger (not easily found, as Winchester classifies it as Law Enforcement Only, but its legal for anyone to own and use if you can find it for sale), and Cor-Bon DPX.

The Hague Convention, which the US never signed, was the treaty that refrains the use of 'Dum-Dum' rounds or hollowpoints. The US Military has generally used FMJ rounds in most all of its military weapons for whatever reason... certain military Special Operations units use hollowpoints as there standard round in some of there small arms. The Mk 262 round for the SPR and other 'accurized' versions of the M-16, while not widely issued, are by design hollowpoints or more accurately in this case called OTM or Open Tip Match rounds. The hollow point adds to the overall accuracy by moving the center of gravity behind the centerline of the bullet (this is my understanding for the reasoning behind it, but not 100% sure of that)...

FMJ jacket rounds are not the same as armor piercing... FMJ only means that the lead portion of the bullet is encased in a copper jacket. If the tip was left open and a small portion of lead was exposed, it would generally be considered a soft-point, and if there were a hollow cavity at the tip, it would be a hollow-point. The FMJ round will generally penetrate obstacles a little better than the other designs will, but not anything like an armor piercing round. An armor piercing round is generally made up of a hardened tungsten steel body rather than lead, and encased in a copper jacket, and thats what gives it the ability to penetrate.


Dave

informative and sexy.

Easy there big fella...

 

[Kyteland]

Originally posted by: Mik3y
hollow points are very poor at penetrating armor. what they do is dig into your flesh and flatten among impact, thus causing some serious damage to your tissues.

I saw a site the other day where a guy filled a box with a bunch of clay and then layed armor (III or IIIA, I don't remember) over it. He shot it with various non-piercing rounds and then showed the damage it did to the clay. I can't say I'd want to be shot even when wearing armor.

I'd link the site but I don't remember the link. I got it originally from ehowa.com which I can't visit from work because of the random boobies that tend to appear on there.

 

[BillGates]

Originally posted by: Kyteland

Originally posted by: Mik3y
hollow points are very poor at penetrating armor. what they do is dig into your flesh and flatten among impact, thus causing some serious damage to your tissues.

I saw a site the other day where a guy filled a box with a bunch of clay and then layed armor (III or IIIA, I don't remember) over it. He shot it with various non-piercing rounds and then showed the damage it did to the clay. I can't say I'd want to be shot even when wearing armor.

I'd link the site but I don't remember the link. I got it originally from ehowa.com which I can't visit from work because of the random boobies that tend to appear on there.

Here you go! (this site is a great read!)

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked

In regards to some other posts in the tread... Hydrashocks were an excellent round in there day, but the design of the hollowpoint is about 20 years old, and has been surpassed by other bullet designs, and is not really the best choice for a defensive round any longer. The post in the hollowpoint has been known to aid in clothing 'clogging' the hollowpoint as it passes through, and not allowing the bullet to expand as it was intended. Better choices for handguns would be, Speer Gold Dot or other brands using the Gold Dot bullet, Winchester Ranger (not easily found, as Winchester classifies it as Law Enforcement Only, but its legal for anyone to own and use if you can find it for sale), and Cor-Bon DPX.

When I still lived in a place that allowed handguns, I kept a Ruger P89 (go ahead and laugh but it was dead on reliable) loaded with Winchester Ranger 127gn +P+ JHPs as my nightstand gun.

I happened into a case of that ammo from a friend.

If the bullets don't stop em the muzzle flash will.

 

[shortylickens]

The OP's story sounds like a jacketed hollow point.
Supposedly punches through class one and two armor but splats on anything else. Including flesh.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: Azndude51
Wow, I didn't realize that my simple question would cause such a debate over warfare and weapons.

Dude, seriously. If you even post anything slightly related to guns you will always get the big debate on AT.
Sad thing is we never seem to cover any new ground. Its just the same arguments over and over. Everyone is pretty much set in their beliefs by now.

 

[darkxshade]

Guns are nothing compared to my phaser set on kill.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: yellowfiero

Originally posted by: Sphexi

Then again without a vest, a hollow point will create a lovely entry hole, and an exit hole probably 2 to 3 times the size. That's why we don't use them in warfare, and haven't for over 100 years now, it's considered wrong and inhumane since very few people survive solid hits from them.

Actually, we don't use them in warfare because they're against the Geneva Convention, as also is using a bayonet with a blood groove...

why is a blood grove so badass that it gets banned?!

 

[Horus]

Originally posted by: Sphexi

Originally posted by: DaFinn
What kind of vest? Cops use a lot basic "underware" vests that offer protection against knives and such, but no real protection against bullets. That said, hollow point is extremely unlikely to penetrate any kind of vest.

No, they're not designed or likely to penetrate a vest. But they are designed to flatten when hitting a soft target (like kevlar) which can cause a much higher energy impact than a standard bullet. Probably won't make much of a difference, but it may mean the difference between a bruise and a broken rib if you happen to get shot in the chest, and in some people maybe a bit more damage.

Then again without a vest, a hollow point will create a lovely entry hole, and an exit hole probably 2 to 3 times the size. That's why we don't use them in warfare, and haven't for over 100 years now, it's considered wrong and inhumane since very few people survive solid hits from them.

One of the rules that was drilled into me in Basic. "You will NOT, under any circumstances, use non-regulation ammunition, or modify ammunition for greater damage." You can get thrown in prison for it.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: yellowfiero

Originally posted by: Sphexi

Then again without a vest, a hollow point will create a lovely entry hole, and an exit hole probably 2 to 3 times the size. That's why we don't use them in warfare, and haven't for over 100 years now, it's considered wrong and inhumane since very few people survive solid hits from them.

Actually, we don't use them in warfare because they're against the Geneva Convention, as also is using a bayonet with a blood groove...

why is a blood grove so badass that it gets banned?!

I don't know why it is actually banned, but it's purpose is to make the blade lighter, and arguably stiffer.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: Feldenak


If I was down to my sidearm and had a choice between .45 and 9mm, I would always go for the .45.

As for links:

Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

I'm still calling shens. My memory sucks, but I'm 99% sure that I saw hollow points over in the sandbox.

Bill, military are specifically forbidden to carry HPs outside the United States. USAF Security Forces are now packing HPs for CONUS duty, but they switch to FMJ when deploying. Whenever we have our Law of Armed Conflict briefings, they always mention the HP/FMJ thing for pistol rounds. If you saw HPs over here, it was either unauthorized usage or with a PSD or similar non-military unit.

The Army could also be conveniently ignoring the restriction, too. It wouldn't be the first time the Air Force did something retarded to put its people in danger. I'll ask some Army guys here the next chance I get.

As for the whole "a wounded soldier puts more strain on a nation's warfighting ability", that's a tired and useless argument. Most of the reports I've read about the fighting here and in Afghanistan discuss how the 5.56mm round has lost favor with everyone because it simply wounds and does not kill. Consequently, the M-14 (7.62mm) has come back into service, and SOCOM has been testing and using a new 6.8mm round with apparently very good effect.

While the "strain" argument might have some merit on an operational or strategic level, we're really not dealing with that in the current conflict because the groups are operating in small tactical units for the most part, not in any nationally organized world war. On a tactical level, a wounded troop can still pull a trigger, unless you're trying to imply that one bullet will always incapacitate, which is ludicrous.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: DaFinn
What kind of vest? Cops use a lot basic "underware" vests that offer protection against knives and such, but no real protection against bullets.

Um, no that's not true at all. Kevlar doesn't protect against edged weapons...its designed to stop bullets.

aw, what would you know

Originally posted by: yellowfiero

Actually, we don't use them in warfare because they're against the Geneva Convention, as also is using a bayonet with a blood groove...

Why do they care about the blood groove? It just makes the blade lighter...