question about automatic transmission fluid changes

[thedarkwolf]

Originally posted by: toph99
Some people don't have outlets for block heaters in their GASOLINE engines and as far as i know, block heaters only heat the coolant, unless you have an oil heater. Sure, some heat will make its way to the oil but not enough to make a difference.

Also with more and more engines being an overhead cam design, getting oil to the top of the engine is very important, which, again, synthetic will outperform any dino oil. I know i hated every cold winter day when i had to start my poor 4.6, because i had a bottle of 5w30 outside and the stuff would barely move when i turned it upside down.

Not to worry. Dad's 4.6l is up to 275k miles all on dino oil and still doing great. Synthetic is better but it is over hyped.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: thedarkwolf

Originally posted by: toph99
Some people don't have outlets for block heaters in their GASOLINE engines and as far as i know, block heaters only heat the coolant, unless you have an oil heater. Sure, some heat will make its way to the oil but not enough to make a difference.

Also with more and more engines being an overhead cam design, getting oil to the top of the engine is very important, which, again, synthetic will outperform any dino oil. I know i hated every cold winter day when i had to start my poor 4.6, because i had a bottle of 5w30 outside and the stuff would barely move when i turned it upside down.

Not to worry. Dad's 4.6l is up to 275k miles all on dino oil and still doing great. Synthetic is better but it is over hyped.

Exactly. I can't tell you how many 4.6's I've seen with over 200k miles on dino oil, still going fine. Not to mention all the police cars that have the crap run out of them, then are sold and keep on going, all while using dino oil.
If you compare synthetic to oil from 20 years ago, then it's a different story. Today's oil is much, much different. The advantage isn't nearly as great as it was.

 

[toph99]

The coldest day i remember this winter was -35C, which is -31F, and i had a half a bottle of 5w30 sitting in the garage, which had the consistency of molasses.

How often would you say the average fleet vehicle is driven in a year? say 30 000 miles, just off the top of my head. A filter is $6 lets say, and 5L of dino is $15(i'm using canadian dollars, but the idea is the same) so for those 30 000 miles, you need to change the dino oil every 5k at the most. there's 6 changes right there, times $31, which is $186. 5L of mobile 1 is $31, and it only has to be changed every 10k(can go longer but for simplicity sake). you change it 3 times, and the filter 6 times, which is $111+$18 for the 3 extra filters = $129. That's a difference of $57 per car and it's recieving better protection. $57 may not sound like a whole lot but with a few hundred cars, not to mention i was being very generous on the change for the dino, as most people do it at 3k not 5, and some of the better synthetics can run far over 10k(i've been hearing some as high as 20) so the savings do add up.

Synthetic, for the average user, who changes their oil religiously, may be overkill. For those of us who are in extreme climates, have fleets, tow, have high horsepower engines or simply want the ultimate in protection, a synthetic oil will outperform any dino oil. I don't really see what is being argued, even if it's only marginally better it still is better. That being said, i use castrol gtx high mileage dino oil

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

What evidence is there that synthetic oil doesen't make your engine last longer? It is not anecdotal, it's a fact, all else being equal. All you have to do is look at the specs of the different oils.

Why has there never been a single independent (non-oil company funded/sponsored) study which has found that engines "last longer" using synthetic oil? Not a single one. A four-ball wear test is not an "engine".

Consumer Reports, however, took several dozen remanufactured engines, disassembled them, measured and documented all critical moving parts using a micrometer, reassembled them, installed them in taxi cabs, then used a particular brand/weight of oil in each engine; ranging from the cheapest 'white label' conventional oil to Mobil 1. It reserved some of the engines to test different drainage intervals; ranging from the 'popular' 3,000 mile to over 6,000 miles. They disassembled each engine at 50,000 mile intervals and micrometered the critical moving parts again, then documented the delta.

Absolutely no difference whatsoever found between conventional and synthetic oils. Engines did not "last longer", nor did they have measurably "less wear".

Ok, your turn. I will not be holding my breath waiting for this non-manufacturer funded/sponsored study because none exist.

Use whatever oil you want. If you get an AMSOil Bypass oil filter, your car will fall apart around your engine.

Yeah right, peddle it somewhere else. This former Amsoil dealer isn't buying.

What are you talking about?

Are you saying my statement is false? It doesen't matter what oil you use. Even the best oil is worthless if it has solid particles in it. You could say that your oil filter is more important than your oil.

Are there other bypass oil filters on the market? Probably a stupid question. AMSOil is the only one I know about, and 0.1 micron filtration is nothing to scoff at.

What's your trip anyway?

 

[tcsenter]

This is not possible because for accuracy each car would have to be started, stopped, driven the same way and in the same conditions. It may be possible to do in a lab, but would be very time consuming to synthesise the life of an engine on a dyno.

What are you talking about? Wow this is starting to resemble a discussion with a religious type about the existance of God. "It can't be seen, it can't be measured, it can't be quantified, it can't be proven, but I know for a fact it exists!" I guess we'll just have to "trust you", eh? lol!

Synthetic oil marketers don't say "Our product does what we claim it does but only if you use it exactly as we have outlined in our 2,094 page 'Lifetime Maintenance, Care, and Use Plan", an excerpt from which we have reprinted below:

Day 1: Drive vehicle 42 miles at 55MPH in 30'C temperatures not to exceed 80% relative humidity, accelerating or deccelerating at a rate no greater than [xx] feet per second, applying brake pressure no greater than [xx] lbs and no longer than [xx] continuous seconds, and allowing to idle no more than 300 seconds and no less than 14 seconds in any single idle-incident, and no more than 30 minutes cumulatively... ~ ...Day 1,246: Drive vehicle 12 miles at 60MPH in 32'C temperatures not to exceed 80% relative humidity, accelerating or deccelerating at a rate no greater than [xx] feet per second, applying brake pressure no higher than [xx]lbs, and allowing to idle no more than 100 seconds and no less than 14 seconds in any single idle-incident, and no more than 10 minutes cumulatively... ~ ...Day 2074: Congratulations! You are now at 62.6% of Mean Time Between Engine Failure Using Synthetic Oil (MTBEF-USO) according to our Lifetime Averaged Performance Test Using Synthetic Oil LAPT-USO #1103! Had you used conventional oil, you would now be at 82.3% Mean Time Between Engine Failure Using Conventional Oil (MTBEF-UCO)!"

Where do synthetic oil marketers say that you must drive 'only in this certain way and at this certain speed and only during this kind of traffic or in this kind of weather' in order to realize a benefit from synthetic oil? If the benefits of synthetic oil cannot be measured in a "real world" test of vehicles but only in a laboratory, what does that say? To any rational person who does not accept "blind faith" as the basis of their conclusions, it means there is no benefit to be realized outside of the laboratory.

And really, does it matter if one car had its oil changed at 5,000 miles and another was 4,500 miles and another was 5,500 miles? Or that one car stopped 100 more or less times than another?

We are, after all, talking about the alleged benefits of synthetic oil due to a cumulative protective effect over a long period of time. This could be measured rather easily...if it existed. It does not.

 

[OS]

I'm just gonna say this about synthetic. For most people who actually do correct maintenance in modern cars, the engine internals almost always outlasts the rest of the car. I'll let you decide if you think more engine protection is necessary.

 

[toph99]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

This is not possible because for accuracy each car would have to be started, stopped, driven the same way and in the same conditions. It may be possible to do in a lab, but would be very time consuming to synthesise the life of an engine on a dyno.

What are you talking about? Wow this is starting to resemble a discussion with a religious type about the existance of God. "It can't be seen, it can't be measured, it can't be quantified, it can't be proven, but I know for a fact it exists!" I guess we'll just have to "trust you", eh? lol!

Synthetic oil marketers don't say "Our product does what we claim it does but only if you use it exactly as we have outlined in our 2,094 page 'Lifetime Maintenance, Care, and Use Plan", an excerpt from which we have reprinted below:

Day 1: Drive vehicle 42 miles at 55MPH in 30'C temperatures not to exceed 80% relative humidity, accelerating or deccelerating at a rate no greater than [xx] feet per second, applying brake pressure no greater than [xx] lbs and no longer than [xx] continuous seconds, and allowing to idle no more than 300 seconds and no less than 14 seconds in any single idle-incident, and no more than 30 minutes cumulatively... ~ ...Day 1,246: Drive vehicle 12 miles at 60MPH in 32'C temperatures not to exceed 80% relative humidity, accelerating or deccelerating at a rate no greater than [xx] feet per second, applying brake pressure no higher than [xx]lbs, and allowing to idle no more than 100 seconds and no less than 14 seconds in any single idle-incident, and no more than 10 minutes cumulatively... ~ ...Day 2074: Congratulations! You are now at 62.6% of Mean Time Between Engine Failure Using Synthetic Oil (MTBEF-USO) according to our Lifetime Averaged Performance Test Using Synthetic Oil LAPT-USO #1103! Had you used conventional oil, you would now be at 82.3% Mean Time Between Engine Failure Using Conventional Oil (MTBEF-UCO)!"

Where do synthetic oil marketers say that you must drive 'only in this certain way and at this certain speed and only during this kind of traffic or in this kind of weather' in order to realize a benefit from synthetic oil? If the benefits of synthetic oil cannot be measured in a "real world" test of vehicles but only in a laboratory, what does that say? To any rational person who does not accept "blind faith" as the basis of their conclusions, it means there is no benefit to be realized outside of the laboratory.

And really, does it matter if one car had its oil changed at 5,000 miles and another was 4,500 miles and another was 5,500 miles? Or that one car stopped 100 more or less times than another?

We are, after all, talking about the alleged benefits of synthetic oil due to a cumulative protective effect over a long period of time. This could be measured rather easily...if it existed. It does not.

I was stating that for a proper scientific study, you must control as many of the variables as possible to isolate the independant(oil) and dependant(engine wear) variables. If you fill one car with dino oil and put it in the Northwest Territories and put the other car with synthetic in miami, you are going to see significantly more wear on the dino oil car because of the other variables, are you not? same goes with how many times each engine is started, what temperature, miles driven etc. which is exactly the same reason why you cannot just pick two random engines, one which uses syn and one which uses dino, tear it apart and say "Ah ha! ____ oil protects better!" because you are not taking into account all the other variables.

 

[LAUST]

Synthetic Auto Tranny Fluid = Bad





Edit: And for the record on the engine oil, my truck puts up with more of a beating then most of your cars and I run Dino... last compression test checked out great. I think you people waste your money on that crap, as long as you stay away from Pensoil you are fine

By the time you spend the $3 extra a QUART that'll give me the money for a brand new motor I might need in another 5 years

 

[Thegonagle]

Hondas don't have a filter, most others do. Honda recommends a drain-refill every 15,000-30,000 miles.

A few transmissions out there have a spin-on filter, but in most cars, you need to take off the pan to access the filter.

 

[toph99]

Originally posted by: Thegonagle
Hondas don't have a filter, most others do. Honda recommends a drain-refill every 15,000-30,000 miles.

A few transmissions out there have a spin-on filter, but in most cars, you need to take off the pan to access the filter.

some hondas do have a metal screen type filter, although iirc, you can clean those instead of replacing them.

 

[IGBT]

GM,Chry.Ford auto's have a filter and I change mine every time (Dodge)...

 

[all168]

I have 2 toyota, most of the toyota have a screw at the bottom of the pan, just like motor oil pan. I remove the screw when I change motor oil for 2 times and it will drip about 2.5 qt of ATF and replace the new one. I having change the filter for 60K mi now and the transmission still running smooth. I know I should drop the pan and replace the transmission filter and inspect the magnet, I probably going to do it this winter when the tempurature drop down to 60-70 degree.

 

[prontospyder]

For our Nissan Altima, I loosen the tranny fluid drain plug, drain it, tighten the drain plug, and fill it up with 4 quarts of ATF. I plan on doing that every 10K miles with sythetic Redline ATF. So far so good after 18K miles. . I wonder which manufacturers besides Nissan have this convenient tranny fluid drain plug for their cars? GM? Toyota? Honda?

Unfortunately, there's no drain plug for our Dodge Intrepid or Chrysler Voyager (have to drop the whole pan) so I just let my local technician do it. I have him change the filter everytime he performs the service.

 

[toph99]

Originally posted by: prontospyder
For our Nissan Altima, I loosen the tranny fluid drain plug, drain it, tighten the drain plug, and fill it up with 4 quarts of ATF. I plan on doing that every 10K miles with sythetic Redline ATF. So far so good after 18K miles. . I wonder which manufacturers besides Nissan have this convenient tranny fluid drain plug for their cars? GM? Toyota? Honda?

Unfortunately, there's no drain plug for our Dodge Intrepid or Chrysler Voyager (have to drop the whole pan) so I just let my local technician do it. I have him change the filter everytime he performs the service.

You do know that you are just mixing the synthetic with whatever the stock nissan fill was, right? You aren't draining the torque converter, so you are only getting a little bit of fluid out. I dont' know the capacity for a nissan tranny, but my car holds about 4L in the pan, iirc, but it has a 12L dry fill.

 

[desertdweller]

Lifer,

You need to say what car you have and what the mileage is.

Hondas don't have a filter for the auto transmissions, or at least
they didn't when I was a tech there in the late 90's. I've also run
across a couple of other imports that didn't have auto trannmission
filters.

American vehicles generally do have filters.

As far as the transmission going bad after changing the fluid, YES, it
is possible. I have had the displeasure of having to deal with a pissed
off customer after it did happen. However, this was an extreme case
and it was after flushing the tranny, not just changing the fluid.


DD

 

[Sundog]

Originally posted by: LAUST
Synthetic Auto Tranny Fluid = Bad





Edit: And for the record on the engine oil, my truck puts up with more of a beating then most of your cars and I run Dino... last compression test checked out great. I think you people waste your money on that crap, as long as you stay away from Pensoil you are fine

By the time you spend the $3 extra a QUART that'll give me the money for a brand new motor I might need in another 5 years

And your proof that synthetic auto tranny fluid is bad comes from where?

And BTW, you spend more per year on Dino oil then I do with synth. Last 2 weeks had an additional 2800 miles plus some towing....

 

[prontospyder]

Originally posted by: toph99

Originally posted by: prontospyder
For our Nissan Altima, I loosen the tranny fluid drain plug, drain it, tighten the drain plug, and fill it up with 4 quarts of ATF. I plan on doing that every 10K miles with sythetic Redline ATF. So far so good after 18K miles. . I wonder which manufacturers besides Nissan have this convenient tranny fluid drain plug for their cars? GM? Toyota? Honda?

Unfortunately, there's no drain plug for our Dodge Intrepid or Chrysler Voyager (have to drop the whole pan) so I just let my local technician do it. I have him change the filter everytime he performs the service.

You do know that you are just mixing the synthetic with whatever the stock nissan fill was, right? You aren't draining the torque converter, so you are only getting a little bit of fluid out. I dont' know the capacity for a nissan tranny, but my car holds about 4L in the pan, iirc, but it has a 12L dry fill.

Yeah, I read on altimas.net that other members had good luck with this procedure. I'm just hoping that the tranny fluid in the Alty will remain clean with this frequent drain/fill method.

 

[tcsenter]

I was stating that for a proper scientific study, you must control as many of the variables as possible to isolate the independant (oil) and dependant (engine wear) variables. If you fill one car with dino oil and put it in the Northwest Territories and put the other car with synthetic in miami, you are going to see significantly more wear on the dino oil car because of the other variables, are you not?

We're talking vehicles in the same climate/region, following a carefully crafted maintenance schedule, easily verified or confirmed by technicians. We're talking about a cumulative protective effect realized over a long period of time, which reduces the impact any of these 'variables' might have on the outcome. With a process that is allegedly 'cumulative', the longer the period of time over which this cumulative effect is permitted to 'work', the more it 'equalizes' all variables which might prejudice the outcome if the period of time were relatively short (two weeks vs. two years).

This would be easy to measure, if it existed. The fact is, it does not.

same goes with how many times each engine is started, what temperature, miles driven etc. which is exactly the same reason why you cannot just pick two random engines, one which uses syn and one which uses dino, tear it apart and say "Ah ha! ____ oil protects better!" because you are not taking into account all the other variables.

There is nothing "random" about:

"[taking] a number of engines, have them remanufactured to 'balanced and blueprinted' specifications, all moving interfaces micrometered exactingly, then each engine installed in a car and driven in a way which reflects 'typical use', all maintenance performed at planned intervals (within an acceptable margin), then each engine disassembled at planned intervals (within an acceptable margin), including periodic oil analysis to measure all characteristics of the oil (including metal wear), remicrometer all critical parts and inspect all interfacing surfaces."

You do not compare engine A with engine B. You compare the DELTA measured within engine A to the DELTA measured within engine B and you use several engines within each drain-interval group, not just two. A pattern should emerge, if a cumulative protective effect existed. The fact is, it does not.

"It can't be seen, it can't be measured, it can't be quantified, it can't be proven, but I know for a fact it exists!"

Have you been to one of those Christian Revivals lately? You'd be in good company with a lot of like-minded people. lol!

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: Sundog

Originally posted by: LAUST
Synthetic Auto Tranny Fluid = Bad





Edit: And for the record on the engine oil, my truck puts up with more of a beating then most of your cars and I run Dino... last compression test checked out great. I think you people waste your money on that crap, as long as you stay away from Pensoil you are fine

By the time you spend the $3 extra a QUART that'll give me the money for a brand new motor I might need in another 5 years

And your proof that synthetic auto tranny fluid is bad comes from where?

And BTW, you spend more per year on Dino oil then I do with synth. Last 2 weeks had an additional 2800 miles plus some towing....

Where does the heat in an Auto come from?

Not friction but ??????

And how do I spend more on $1.39 a quart Dino then you do?

 

[Sundog]

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: Sundog

Originally posted by: LAUST
Synthetic Auto Tranny Fluid = Bad





Edit: And for the record on the engine oil, my truck puts up with more of a beating then most of your cars and I run Dino... last compression test checked out great. I think you people waste your money on that crap, as long as you stay away from Pensoil you are fine

By the time you spend the $3 extra a QUART that'll give me the money for a brand new motor I might need in another 5 years

And your proof that synthetic auto tranny fluid is bad comes from where?

And BTW, you spend more per year on Dino oil then I do with synth. Last 2 weeks had an additional 2800 miles plus some towing....

Where does the heat in an Auto come from?

Not friction but ??????

And how do I spend more on $1.39 a quart Dino then you do?

$1.39 per quart X # qts per oil change X # oil changes per year...