The support can be there, but when I started seeing how compatibility is today, it's still not as good as ntfs.
I disagree that it's only niche people that seem to build these as freenas wouldn't be as big as it is today otherwise.In cash spent: yes. In total cost - for most people: no.
And in case of enterprises there's also the issue of warranty and support.
Hardly anyone outside of desktop gaming and enthusiast niches builds DIY PCs or servers. Why would they suddenly go for a DIY NAS?
And even if you're a DIY enthusiast, you'll have to face the simple matter of a day having just 24h.
So even if you're an absolute genius - you can learn how to fix and build almost everything around you (check: Richard Feynman), you'll have to let go at some point and just buy a product made by someone else.
Treat a NAS as a basic appliance - like a fridge. And spend your "hobby time budget" on something more useful and challenging.
And I've found that 'gamers' are pretty much just interested in weird funk versus real computing.
This is definitely a big consideration for those of us that have limited time and the opportunity costs of spending time on IT versus elsewhere.
However, I've noticed that DIY in computers has similar huge returns as it does in DIY automotive work with better quality and a better result overall if one can put in the effort. Ie, 9yr uptime with zero hassles. Most ready made units would have had growth and transition issues over that same time period.
My biggest issue is the sata cables sometime comes loose; i have to reseat it and then tell the raid to readd the disk. The thing is that ZFS is 10000's time better than ntfs because of the block checksum allows it to detect bad data and repair. That is a feature that modern filesystem (brtfs has something similar but i've heard the raid software is not as backed and sometimes gets very confused causing data loss). with file systems like ext4, xfs, exfat, ntfs those features don't exist.
Yeah and sas might have even eliminated that issue since that wouldn't be tolerated in the enterprise.
The detection of bit rot is a really silent killer. Files generally only corrupt themselves one-way--bit rot. And when there's malware, randomware, and all sorts of baddies trying to get into the storage, having advanced features like snapshots and bit rot protection make sense. It can also be argued that a diy nas isn't as big as an attack vector since the most popular nas units will be hit first since the attackers can access more units with an attack. Custom units can thwart certain attacks due to unique hardware, etc.
Bought a 5 bay sata tower usb3.2 to plug into a nuc to see how that goes for my next nas. If it doesn't work then I have a itx build with 10gbe nvme and 4 sata. I think it will be fun to try. I could buy a 600$ synology but I always see bad reviews like psu dying, not being able to stream 2x4k at once etc etc. Doubt I will need 2 hours every 60 days to deal with it after initial setup.
Yep, this the type of setup we've been (now with nas units as backups). We have some old xp embedded thin clients and just plugged in some usb 2.0 drives. They're really good enclosures and solid enterprise drives along with a really reliable thin client, but this has been our internal ftp and file server for almost a decade now.
We've never really needed faster transfer speeds, but if we did all we would need to do is move to some thin clients with usb 3.0 as the drive enclosures are usb 3.0.
And now with the nas units, if we need faster access on something for some reason, we just pull the file from the 'faster' backup.
Total cost of each server with 2TB of storage was under $120. And this is about how much a used drive-less nas has cost us.
Well, I think the real issue of cheap NAS availability may be the fairly low entry price for basic cloud solutions.
You would expect people with modern ultrabooks (256-512GB SSDs) to crave for more storage. But getting 1TB on cloud is so easy, cheap and effortless (more practical as well) that most are just fine without anything local.
@SamirD misses the simple NASes from the past, but for most people - me included - the actual added value of a NAS in 2020 is not in the storage itself but actually in those other features.
You forgot the few hours to choose parts and get them. And that for most people these would be few times longer - especially since they'd have to learn how to do it.
But even what you said is quite a lot. Because you probably have more systems at home and it quickly adds up.
I have a few PCs at home, 2 tiny servers, a NAS and some minor quasi-IoT stuff (which is probably dwarfed by what many people on this forum have).
Sure, I could take care of everything myself, but that would consume all the "hobby" time I have for these kind of things.
The simple fact is: for some of us (maybe you) building and administrating computers is the hobby. For me it isn't. I build/buy stuff to use it.
And after work, family, home chores, reading, occasional movie, learning and exercising, I'm left with maybe 2-4h a week for gaming and taking care of the PCs. I have a task on Todoist called "Try Ubuntu 20.04 on RPi" which is delayed by 3 weeks already.
Bit rot as you described is very very rare. It is most likely to happen at write time due to various issues. Of course sometime you get parity errors in the disk ram buffer. The most common error is when a block fails and it is silently replaced by a zero out block. You can tell the disk to not replace bad blocks but that will create other issues.
I have two machines since my file server is also my work machine.
Also the most difficult part to pick would be the most difficult part to pick if you buy a NAS and that is a reliable disk.
Also the most difficult part to pick would be the most difficult part to pick if you buy a NAS and that is a reliable disk.
Muadib
Lifer
- May 30, 2000
- 18,124
- 912
- 126
Well i have honestly looked at different nas for at least 10 hours
most likely more. (Of course these are paid hours of free time at work still i watched reviews and almost settled on a synology 1019+ and frankly I can't remember why I decided against getting it. I just looked at it again saw very few bad reviews, so I think it boiled down to a youtube reviewer saying he had the psu go out, here is the video. Id gladly buy this unit if someone gives me some confidence, money isn't really a issue I just overthink every purchase and qnas has security firmware issues right now. Also having to purchase each security camera license seems lame but I have a Hikvison nvr for that currently. Hmm... process:
0) I want a NAS
1) I want 4x4TB drives, I'd like to spend around $600 for NAS alone
2) best one I can afford: DS420+, I spend 10 minutes reading reviews and it's OK => NAS choosing done
3) I look at the compatibility list:
Compatibility List | Synology Inc.
Synology strives to improve product compatibility. Check out our compatibility list before purchasing the peripherals you need.
www.synology.com
4) I spend 20 minutes reading comments and reviews
5) I choose ST4000VN008 => drive choosing done
That's probably 40 minutes total. Now I can spend some more quality time thinking where to get that $1100 total.
I pay, admittedly, a hefty sum for Synology's time spent designing and testing, but the product is really good and ticks most of my needs (it works, it's fast, it has good features, it looks OK, it's silent and it has a very nice warranty and service).
Is it the best server I could have for that money? No. So what?
Going DIY for comparison:
0) I want a DIY server
1) I need a small mITX case that can fit somewhere in my flat and doesn't look hideous
... and it's September already.
Also, you may be one of those people who do quick buying decisions. If yes, I absolutely envy you.
I'm not one of them. It takes me a lot of time to choose stuff. It's a personal flaw, but one's existence is built around personal flaws.
Economy even has a name for this: transaction cost.
The good side of this is that by the time I'll choose all the parts, read all the reviews (including the absolutely crucial matter of fan pitch), I'll probably save enough money to buy it instantly.
You over simplified things in your favor but that's ok we expected as much. The fruit in the pudding comes 5 years later and the issue you've over those years.
Hmm... process:
0) I want a NAS
1) I want 4x4TB drives, I'd like to spend around $600 for NAS alone
2) best one I can afford: DS420+, I spend 10 minutes reading reviews and it's OK => NAS choosing done
3) I look at the compatibility list:
it gives me 3-4 potential candidates (consumer NAS drives)Compatibility List | Synology Inc.
Synology strives to improve product compatibility. Check out our compatibility list before purchasing the peripherals you need.
4) I spend 20 minutes reading comments and reviews
5) I choose ST4000VN008 => drive choosing done
That's probably 40 minutes total. Now I can spend some more quality time thinking where to get that $1100 total.
I pay, admittedly, a hefty sum for Synology's time spent designing and testing, but the product is really good and ticks most of my needs (it works, it's fast, it has good features, it looks OK, it's silent and it has a very nice warranty and service).
Is it the best server I could have for that money? No. So what?
Going DIY for comparison:
0) I want a DIY server
1) I need a small mITX case that can fit somewhere in my flat and doesn't look hideous
... and it's September already.
Also, you may be one of those people who do quick buying decisions. If yes, I absolutely envy you.
I'm not one of them. It takes me a lot of time to choose stuff. It's a personal flaw, but one's existence is built around personal flaws.
Economy even has a name for this: transaction cost.
The good side of this is that by the time I'll choose all the parts, read all the reviews (including the absolutely crucial matter of fan pitch), I'll probably save enough money to buy it instantly.
Ok so why did you choose that nas? Dual core 2gb ram 1gbe??? For 200 more quad core 10gbe 8gb ram. Only thing I see is the 1090+ is ddr3l. 3 years warranty is OK i gusss, also why choose expensive 4tb iron wolfs? Way better then 8tb he8 or wd red?? 125 for 8tb has been what I have been paying.Hmm... process:
0) I want a NAS
1) I want 4x4TB drives, I'd like to spend around $600 for NAS alone
2) best one I can afford: DS420+, I spend 10 minutes reading reviews and it's OK => NAS choosing done
3) I look at the compatibility list:
it gives me 3-4 potential candidates (consumer NAS drives)Compatibility List | Synology Inc.
Synology strives to improve product compatibility. Check out our compatibility list before purchasing the peripherals you need.
4) I spend 20 minutes reading comments and reviews
5) I choose ST4000VN008 => drive choosing done
That's probably 40 minutes total. Now I can spend some more quality time thinking where to get that $1100 total.
I pay, admittedly, a hefty sum for Synology's time spent designing and testing, but the product is really good and ticks most of my needs (it works, it's fast, it has good features, it looks OK, it's silent and it has a very nice warranty and service).
Is it the best server I could have for that money? No. So what?
Going DIY for comparison:
0) I want a DIY server
1) I need a small mITX case that can fit somewhere in my flat and doesn't look hideous
... and it's September already.
Also, you may be one of those people who do quick buying decisions. If yes, I absolutely envy you.
I'm not one of them. It takes me a lot of time to choose stuff. It's a personal flaw, but one's existence is built around personal flaws.
Economy even has a name for this: transaction cost.
The good side of this is that by the time I'll choose all the parts, read all the reviews (including the absolutely crucial matter of fan pitch), I'll probably save enough money to buy it instantly.
Ok when I looked again at the 1019+ it is not 10gbe, then looked 1517+ it is not 10gbe but has a expansion port for a 100-200$ 10gbe pcie card so that must be why I decided build my own.
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funboy6942
Lifer
- Nov 13, 2001
- 15,368
- 418
- 126
It kinda looks a lot like this one. Gonna see if these are made by the same OEM for there is some differences, but then there is a lot of similarities.
Amazon.com: TerraMaster F4-210 4-Bay NAS 1GB RAM Quad Core Network Attached Storage Media Server Personal Private Cloud (Diskless): Computers & Accessories
Amazon.com: TerraMaster F4-210 4-Bay NAS 1GB RAM Quad Core Network Attached Storage Media Server Personal Private Cloud (Diskless): Computers & Accessories
www.amazon.com
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
- Aug 25, 2001
- 56,587
- 10,225
- 126
If QNAP is like a Honda, TerraMaster is like a Yugo...
I'm not saying not to buy a Yugo, if that's what your budget is, but don't expect the amenities that you get with a Honda.
I'm not saying not to buy a Yugo, if that's what your budget is, but don't expect the amenities that you get with a Honda.
Just be aware that the reviews for the box you link has 20% negative rating. It isn't just the fact that they are negative but reading some of them well.... i'm not sure i would want to deal with those issues.
Of course I'm simplifying things in my favor. That's the whole point, isn't it?
Depends. QNAP and Asustor already started offering 2.5GbE in, let's say, high-end consumer models - purely because Intel said 2.5GbE will become accessible from next generation platform.
Larger companies - Synology as leading NAS maker and major switch/router manufacturers - are slightly more inert as usual.
But next year you should be able to 2.5GbE networks using fairly affordable parts.
If you want more than 2.5GbE, you're entering a premium segment and it gets costly.
But then again: it means you're thinking about an SSD NAS and your clients are 10GbE. In other words: you probably can afford it.
funboy6942
Lifer
- Nov 13, 2001
- 15,368
- 418
- 126
I take a lot of reviews with a grain of salt, but Im also looking for a cheap unit to replace my very old drobo. Now no, my drobo isnt giving much trouble, and about a year ago, or less, the fan in it went bad finally, so I replaced it with a noctua unit, and relapped all the stuff with new thermal paste, for that stuff got hard and crunch over the year. But it just doesnt seem to have the performance that I seemed to remember it having when I first got it, and I have at one point between my pc, and my sons pc, moved everything off it, reformatted the machine and drives, and put it all back on it, but didnt seem to make a difference. So Im looking for a "newer" unit, thats not going to cost me much, for I will have to get drives to go with it, move everything from drobo to it, and use the drives and drobo as a back up, powering it back up once a month or so.
Wouldnt be too bad, if drobo used a standard program, that if I took a drive out my pc would see it, and get the info off it one drive at a time, but it doesnt work that way, a drobo can only see a drobo, and I cannot afford another drobo, Im not in the same situation I was in when I got this one going on at least 10 years now, so I need something, and drives, so I can move it around. Im thinking of maybe finding some more money, so I can get one like the OP has shown, and then could just sell my drobo, for it still fetches about what the op one is getting on ebay, without any HDDs in it, but I can find 200 better then I can find 300 atm.
what about installing like xpenology to your diy job. sounds like something fun to try (unless you cant spare 20 mins ) Open Media Vault looks even better.Of course I'm simplifying things in my favor. That's the whole point, isn't it?
Depends. QNAP and Asustor already started offering 2.5GbE in, let's say, high-end consumer models - purely because Intel said 2.5GbE will become accessible from next generation platform.
Larger companies - Synology as leading NAS maker and major switch/router manufacturers - are slightly more inert as usual.
But next year you should be able to 2.5GbE networks using fairly affordable parts.
If you want more than 2.5GbE, you're entering a premium segment and it gets costly.
But then again: it means you're thinking about an SSD NAS and your clients are 10GbE. In other words: you probably can afford it.
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Because I like Synology best - I find their software to be easiest to use and the most polished. And they have very decent support.
Also, since I'm already using their stuff, it's easier to stay in the same ecosystem than to make a huge revolution on all clients and in all workflows.
Why DS420+ over DS418? Mostly because of virtualization and more powerful SoC (it can index way more files).
It certainly is enough for my needs. I simply wouldn't utilize an even faster SoC or more RAM.
For someone wanting to run more VMs on a NAS or who has many clients, DS920+ is clearly a better option.
I'm OK with 1GbE as well. All my PCs connect over WiFi, which realistically makes 1GbE fast enough.
If I used LAN more, I'd probably think about link aggregation or would have waited for 2.5GbE.
Actually this was the cheapest option (by few $ but still).
4TB Iron Wolf costed me around $135 each (23% VAT included). They cost $106 on Amazon.
Putting aside enterprise drives (much more expensive), the only other 4TB option on Synology's compatibility list was Toshiba N300 ($140).
Most WD Reds from this generation were dropped because of SMR.
Why not 8TB? Two reasons:
1) it would be more expensive
My target was 10-12TB, which should last me until 2023 or so. For that I needed either 4x4TB or 2x8TB+4TB. The latter was 25% more expensive.
When the time comes, I'll replace two HDDs with 8TB. Who knows - maybe SSDs will be cheaper at that point.
2) I have plans for those 4TB once removed from NAS - they'll be used for backup.
So this is not just a single purchase for me. It has to fit a long-time strategy.
I have absolutely zero use for 10GbE right now and this won't change for another 5 years, if ever.
This really isn't about "fun" for me. It's an important part of my daily routines. Like a fridge or a washing machine.
In other words: NAS has to work. And not just for me, but for everyone in my household.
I could give Xpenology a try "for fun" on another machine, but - being brutally honest - I have more interesting things to do.
I don't know why so many people recommend going for a DIY NAS as a "project". It's super boring and doesn't really teach you anything useful.
That said, I probably could recommend a DIY NAS for someone who wanted to learn Linux. It's always easier to learn stuff when you instantly see useful results.
funboy6942
Lifer
- Nov 13, 2001
- 15,368
- 418
- 126
Well after writing that and thinking, I have my drobo set to dual redundancy, and I can put and max it out with 5 4tb drives. So thinking of going the otherway around, and get a DAS box, move stuff from drobo to it, and then store it away, pulling it out, every month or so and do small back ups to it, and I wouldnt have to buy a NAS thats an arm and a leg, but a das, thats about a hundo or so, hook it to my pc, do a back up, unhook, store it in a way it will never get dropped to the floor, and then put better drives in my drobo, and make use of the sdd slot on the top, to make it run faster having some ssd storage just for the drobo itself, for I have yet to put anything in the slot the 8+ years Ive owned it
Anyone got a unit that holds at least 4 drives bigger then 4tb each, not breaking the bank so I can do this?
And my drobo is my first nas I have ever owned, and I must say I do love it, quiet, sorta fast, programs are easy to use, software works on xp and above, software is pretty much point and click, a monkey can understand and run it. But daaaaaaaang, they cost a bunch, for Id love to get a 5n2 unit with dual ethernet ports, but $550+ for one, and almost that still used on ebay. My FS unit pulls over $300 and its been out for 10 years, and can go no higher then 16tb, but if I can get a 5n2, I can just take my drives and plop then in it, and not lose anything, and as time goes on, put 5 12tb in there and should be another 10+ years before needing a upgrade again
Anyone got a 5N2 wanna sell :O
Where the heck has the time gone where 4tb in a nas box is considered small, too? I remeber when I got it, I had 5 2tb drives in it, but I run dual redundency so if 2 of the 3 drives go bad, I dont lose anything, so I clicked that on and moved to 4tb x 5, and now, though not fully full, got 3tb of space left, Id like to have more, but this is all she wrote, cannot go bigger, well I can but drobo will only see 16tb total usable, so no point in dropping larger then 4tb in my FS unit. But dang, games and pictures are getting out of control in size, for I like to use my drobo as a drive on my pc, so when I install stuff, and all my steam, origin, epic, etc, I forward its instal to my drobo drive letter, so if I redo my pc, I dont lose all the games I have downloaded, or any saves as well. Just redo my hdd in my pc, install drobo, make a letter share, install all the game software, using that drive letter to look at for downloaded games, and bam done. Till I got my drobo I cringed anytime I had to redo, for it meant redownloading all my games from everywhere again.
Anyone got a unit that holds at least 4 drives bigger then 4tb each, not breaking the bank so I can do this?
And my drobo is my first nas I have ever owned, and I must say I do love it, quiet, sorta fast, programs are easy to use, software works on xp and above, software is pretty much point and click, a monkey can understand and run it. But daaaaaaaang, they cost a bunch, for Id love to get a 5n2 unit with dual ethernet ports, but $550+ for one, and almost that still used on ebay. My FS unit pulls over $300 and its been out for 10 years, and can go no higher then 16tb, but if I can get a 5n2, I can just take my drives and plop then in it, and not lose anything, and as time goes on, put 5 12tb in there and should be another 10+ years before needing a upgrade again
Anyone got a 5N2 wanna sell :O
Where the heck has the time gone where 4tb in a nas box is considered small, too? I remeber when I got it, I had 5 2tb drives in it, but I run dual redundency so if 2 of the 3 drives go bad, I dont lose anything, so I clicked that on and moved to 4tb x 5, and now, though not fully full, got 3tb of space left, Id like to have more, but this is all she wrote, cannot go bigger, well I can but drobo will only see 16tb total usable, so no point in dropping larger then 4tb in my FS unit. But dang, games and pictures are getting out of control in size, for I like to use my drobo as a drive on my pc, so when I install stuff, and all my steam, origin, epic, etc, I forward its instal to my drobo drive letter, so if I redo my pc, I dont lose all the games I have downloaded, or any saves as well. Just redo my hdd in my pc, install drobo, make a letter share, install all the game software, using that drive letter to look at for downloaded games, and bam done. Till I got my drobo I cringed anytime I had to redo, for it meant redownloading all my games from everywhere again.
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