Q: max-OC'd FTW GTX460 vs max-OC'd XFX Vapor Chamber 6850, which wins? Answer inside.

[MangoX]

Kind of interesting note - even in games where it doesn't beat the AMDs the GTX 460 generally gets more competitive when 4X AA is applied vs. none (at 1920 and below). That's a bit of a reversal - in the past Radeon's had better performance with AA.

Yes but that was against the GTX 2xx series. Ever since Fermi NV has better AA performance.

I doubt that. 4000 series scaled great, 5700 series also scaled great, 6800 series scales great. 5800 Doesn't scale so great. Reminds me of X1900 scaling. So I don't think its just the profiles.

In fact, I don't think the 5800 series has ever gotten anywhere near 80% scaling.

Yeah. The 5970 would have been an even bigger beast if it wasn't for poor scaling and downclocked cores.

 

[blastingcap]

Since it appears SLI\CF are affected by profiles created within the driver for specific games. I would say AMD created a better profile for these games with the 6000 series than they have with the 5000 series.

It's commonly accepted that if you get a GTX460-1GB and have a well-cooled case, you will get at least 825MHz out of it at stock volts (see, e.g., this roundup: http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/ ). If you max volts to 1.087V, you will likely get at least 850MHz (the FTW "stock" clock) and perhaps more like 860MHz+ depending on how good the chip (luck of the draw) is and how good the cooling is on the card and in your case. So why bother getting a FTW for much more $$$?

Edit: Tvice points out that the FTW is special-binned for lower power consumption relative to most GTX460s. Thanks.

Edit2: Sorry, Genx, I meant to reply to this person, not you:

I sorry but I confused here alot. The reviewer never O/C the $188 dollar Stock 460. Unless I missed it . If so someone post the results because I don't see it . If its not in there How can you make the above statement . Tired so I may have missed it. But if I didn't Your $188 comparsion is bogus as all hell. There has to be a reason the reviewer didn't O/C that part. So As it stands right now the real deal is the 6850 is the bargin king . Like I said I may have missed it but I looking hard . Why is this happening???

 

[blastingcap]

NO nO nO . I need proof . The overclocked cards are like $50 more . The $188 dollar 6850 did just fine to claim = Value I need Proof. Why wasn't the Stock 460 $188 card overclocked. Last week I got to see NV O/Ced against Stock referance cards. I want Proof not double talk. I asked why that card wasn't O/Ced OP gave no reply. Thats all I need to know for now . Others will do the same hopefully some will BUY a retail stock 460 and O/C it to it highest stable 24/7 O/C

I didn't reply because I was asleep. I'm sorry that if I take more than a few hours to reply that mean I am intentionally ignoring you. 🙄

Note also that the 68xx cards are slightly cherrypicked, but not by much, according to the article.

 

[tviceman]

It's commonly accepted that if you get a GTX460-1GB and have a well-cooled case, you will get at least 825MHz out of it at stock clocks. If you add a bit of voltage, you will likely get at least 850MHz (the FTW "stock" clock) and probably more like 860MHz+ depending on how good the cooling is on the card and in your case. So why bother getting a FTW for much more $$$?

The only big advantage is that FTW cards seem to draw lass amps thus consuming less power and having slightly lower operating temps (according to all the 6800 reviews that show power draws of of various gtx460 cards) than your run-of-the-mill gtx460's.

 

[blastingcap]

ANd Guru 3d also got 900+ on the core with there gtx 460 Hawk model with voltage.

At 200$ that card looks like the one to buy.

Thats getting into 6870 overclocked territory.

Actually the best bang for the buck is a very similar MSI card at 768MB going for ~$150 without rebates, and I get a special rate on Amazon bringing the actual cost to me to ~$138. I was just about to cancel my ASUS 6850 order for it, but then I got hit by taxes. The card is probably out of stock by now.

I miss Eyefinity in Source games (most of my gaming time is in TF2, L4D, and L4D2), so I am willing to pay a little bit extra for Eyefinity. For most people gaming at 1080p or less and who don't plan to play a LOT at max-oc (remember, GTX460s eat more energy than HD6850s and if you game a lot, you will end up paying several dollars more per year in power bills), the GTX460-768MB is probably the price/perf leader right now (after rebates), followed by the GTX460-1GB (after rebates), followed closely by the HD6850 (no rebate necessary).

NOTE: the 6850s can be overvolted even more than the 1.22W and if you go a bit higher in voltage, they will get close to catching up with a max-oc'd GTX460 FTW and use a little bit more power than the max-oc'd GTX460 FTW. GTX460s top out in voltage at ~1.1V in Afterburner typically, maybe more if you're a HAWK owner or something.

The only big advantage is that FTW cards seem to draw lass amps thus consuming less power and having slightly lower operating temps (according to all the 6800 reviews that show power draws of of various gtx460 cards) than your run-of-the-mill gtx460's.

Good point, I forgot about the binning process. So yeah, a non-FTW card will probably have higher stock volts and draw more power.

 

[Genx87]

It's commonly accepted that if you get a GTX460-1GB and have a well-cooled case, you will get at least 825MHz out of it at stock volts (see, e.g., this roundup: http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/ ). If you max volts to 1.087V, you will likely get at least 850MHz (the FTW "stock" clock) and perhaps more like 860MHz+ depending on how good the chip (luck of the draw) is and how good the cooling is on the card and in your case. So why bother getting a FTW for much more $$$?

Edit: Tvice points out that the FTW is special-binned for lower power consumption relative to most GTX460s. Thanks.

What does that reply have to do with what I said?

 

[blastingcap]

What does that reply have to do with what I said?

Darn it I meant to quote someone else, sorry. This is the quote I *meant* to reply to:

I sorry but I confused here alot. The reviewer never O/C the $188 dollar Stock 460. Unless I missed it . If so someone post the results because I don't see it . If its not in there How can you make the above statement . Tired so I may have missed it. But if I didn't Your $188 comparsion is bogus as all hell. There has to be a reason the reviewer didn't O/C that part. So As it stands right now the real deal is the 6850 is the bargin king . Like I said I may have missed it but I looking hard . Why is this happening???

 

[Genx87]

Darn it I meant to quote someone else, sorry. This is the quote I *meant* to reply to:

Ha np.

 

[RussianSensation]

It's hard to go wrong with any of these cards, but picking up a non-FTW GTX460 or HD6850 for ~$180 and oc'ing the hell out of them will give you better price/perf than buying a FTW GTX460 or HD6870.

blastingcap -- comment FTW!!! :thumbsup:

 

[Nemesis 1]

I didn't reply because I was asleep. I'm sorry that if I take more than a few hours to reply that mean I am intentionally ignoring you. 🙄

Note also that the 68xx cards are slightly cherrypicked, but not by much, according to the article.

Sorry I didn't know ya went to sleep . I haven't slept since saturday.

I see the 6800s are cherry picked. So thats why the stock 460 g wasn't O/Ced . I see thats good wouldn't want to skew the results because Of cherry picked 6800s . I see that reasoning clearly and every day it becomes more clear.

 

[RussianSensation]

I thought he said gtx460 and 6850 in the title?

Take a 189$gtx 460 vs the 187$ 6850 and overclock them both, who wins?
Take a 250$ gtx 470 and a 240$ 6870 and overclock them, who wins?

I think thats a better comparison.

The lowest GTX460 1GB is $169 not $189 and comes with a free game.

6850 @ 900mhz is only about as fast as an HD6870/GTX460 @ 850mhz. Since GTX460 has another 50-75+mhz of headroom, the 460 will win (but consume more power).

GTX470 is not $250. You can find some for $230 with a free game. There is no point in comparing HD6870 vs. a GTX470 in overclocking. GTX470 can generally clock to 750-800mhz (of course YMMV) - that's at least a 23% overclock. Of course, power consumption will be worse than HD6870.

Basically right now with NV, you get a free game (which isn't great though) and in some cases a cheaper card. Once you consider overclocking, NV is slightly faster, but with worse power consumption in both cases. Personally, I really don't view the 470 as a contender unless it comes close to $200, since it's much louder than the 6850/70/GTX460 cards and consumes the most power. It's too hard to call a winner between 460/6850 though, but 6870 > 470 imo unless all you care about is outright performance.

 

[blastingcap]

Just a thought: electricity ain't free. And although the GTX460 coolers are very good in general and the GPU temperatures will look okay, that doesn't mean the card doesn't produce lots of heat because of all the power it consumes. That heat will go somewhere. Depending on the cooler design, it may even go back INTO your case rather than OUT.

That said, the GTX460-768 is still a price/perf winner for those gaming at 16x10 or less (or even 19x12 without AA). It's a tougher call with the GTX460-1GB vs. 6850 because if you clock high and especially if you overvolt, you will get >6850 performance but also >6850 power draw which costs electricity. But either one of those will give you good price/perf so it's hard to make a wrong choice.

RS, that GTX460 you linked to has horrible reviews. Sometimes it is worth paying a bit extra for more reliability and durability, don't you think? 🙂

 

[RussianSensation]

RS, that GTX460 you linked to has horrible reviews. Sometimes it is worth paying a bit extra for more reliability and durability, don't you think? 🙂

Ya, 2 more minutes can find you another $169 one.

But for $5 extra you can get a uber cool Gigabyte HD6850 w/ code pumpkin10. 🙂 That's one "sexy" 6850!

 

[bryanW1995]

SO the answer is the gtx 460 ftw.

Thanks for the info.

so, when somebody is clearly biased should we say something or just let it go?

How did you get that conclusion from that article?

 

[blastingcap]

Ya, 2 more minutes can find you another $169 one.

But for $5 extra you can get a uber cool Gigabyte HD6850 w/ code pumpkin10. 🙂 That's one "sexy" 6850!

Yeah I saw that, but it's ECS so I passed. You do get HAWX2 (crappy game, but maybe you can find someone foolish enough to buy it), but it's $30 MIR. What is their reliability as far as rebates? And the card itself's reliability? Higher heat/power? Not to mention the $8 shipping cost. 6850s at Amazon are free shipping: $180 Sapphire and $187 ASUS DirectCU shipped. So I think that it's a really tough call re: price/perf... the GTX460s have better prices with rebates, but you gotta deal with the rebate first, then the ongoing higher power draw. It's pretty much a tie. My tiebreaker was the need for Eyefinity (I was willing to give it up but after I got sent my defective GTX460-768MB I realized how much I missed it after all), but I could have easily gone the other way had I had only one or two monitors.

 

[geokilla]

I'd personally use OCCT but I don't know exactly what the article author used.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...6850-vs-gtx-460-1gb-overclocking-study-3.html

Before going into the actual clock speeds we achieved let’s talk about stability. To achieve true stability, a given graphics card has to complete ALL of our benchmarks without crashing or artifacting. In addition, it must be able to pass a 6-hour stability test with MSI’s Kombustor utility.

What we are showing below is two different overclocks for each product: one with its stock voltage and the other with a slightly increased core voltage. We kept the voltage tuning within some limits due to the impact it has on overall core temperatures. If at any time core temperatures reached above 90°C with the fan speed at 50% throughout testing, the voltage and clock speeds were scaled back until a reasonable sub-90°C peak temperature threshold was reached.

NOTE: GDDR5’s error correction features can constrain performance so in some cases, even though higher memory clocks are achieved, performance doesn’t necessarily increase. If potential errors (artifacts) are detected, GDDR5 has the capability to adjust latency, hold times, etc to correct performance before the errors can make their way to the display output. The result is software monitoring programs still reporting a higher memory speed but overall performance isn’t positively impacted in any way.

To avoid this, we made sure every memory clock speed increase we applied had a corresponding performance increase as well.

 

[happy medium]

so, when somebody is clearly biased should we say something or just let it go?

How did you get that conclusion from that article?

The title of the thread is gtx460 vs 6850 overclocked.
I see the gtx460 overclocked winning in every benchmark, don't you? And the 6850 is @ 1010 core.
In fact it beats the 6870 sometimes too. 🙂

 

[blastingcap]

snip

You doublecounted one of those but I don't think anyone is arguing that the 6850 is faster at max oc.

With a standard GTX 460-1GB you take a risk that you won't get a dud card. It's safe to say that most cards will get to 825MHz at stock volts, but after that it's a crapshoot. The card is about the same price as 6850s, but only after rebate. CUDA/PhysX vs. Eyefinity's importance varies by user. Power draws, noise, thermals, etc. are sorta comparable but it really depends on exactly which version (AIB partner), and the 6850 uses less power. (As Ryan Smith pointed out, the FTW cards are binned chips so they consume less power than a lesser GTX460-1GB. Look at the power draws of non-FTW cards to see what I mean.) Less power = less heat dumped into your room, though it's almost winter now so maybe that's not a bad thing. (It will be a bad thing in summertime though.)

All in all I think a standard GTX 460-1GB at $180AR is slightly ahead in price/perf, but a HD6850 for $180 w/o rebate is not far behind, plus the electricity cost savings will erode the GTX 460-1GB's advantage over time.

It's hard to go wrong with either card. Can't we all just get along? 🙂

 

[happy medium]

You doublecounted one of those but I don't think anyone is arguing that the 6850 is faster at max oc.

fixed, and I used 1 twice and forgot 1.

Look at the charts I posted the htx460 @ 850 is = or faster then a 6850 @ 1010 core! The gtx460 dosen't even need a 895 core clock to win which means even less heat and wattage ,right?.

in red
It is ? what is its max overclock 1100?

ANd I call bullshit, the 6850 with extra voltage and 1010 overclock is also very hot and so is the 6870. Remember it uses 1.3 volts to get a max overclock.

Look the gtx460 @850 wins vs the 6850 @ 1010 and uses a whole 11 more watts!

And the 6850 also runs much, much hotter!

 

[notty22]

Look the gtx460 @850 wins vs the 6850 @ 1010 and uses a whole 11 more watts!

11 more watts ! Heavens to Murgatroyd! After 20 years of use the other card would have paid for itself !
I don't know when gamers started worrying so much about full load power usage, negatively effecting our lives. lol
Does a eyefinity user lose sleep over the extra two monitor's using power ? Whats a monitor 50 watts continuous ?
:*humorous post 🙂

 

[blastingcap]

[reading comprehension failure]

*facepalm* Re-read what I wrote, you seem to think I wrote the exact opposite re: speeds. I said that I didn't think anyone was saying the max-oc 6850 is faster than the max-oc GTX460.

As for power:

Compared to the 6850@1GHz, the GTX460 eats more energy:

Power draw at Idle is ~15watts more which really adds up if you leave your PC on 24/7 (it equates to ~$17/year at 13 cents/kWh, assuming it doesn't drive you up a tier). .015kWH x .13 dollars/kWh x 24 hours/day x 365 days = $17.08 (this assumes no additional cost such as getting bumped a tier in the utility bill, or getting a new PSU)

Power draw at Load is also more, by 11 watts for the FTW@850 and 26 watts for the reference GTX460@895MHz.

In fact, if you want to equilibrate the power draws and thus electricity costs, the GTX460 would have to be clocked below 850MHz, at which point its performance edge would probably vanish or even turn into a deficit.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...850-vs-gtx-460-1gb-overclocking-study-14.html

11 more watts ! Heavens to Murgatroyd! After 20 years of use the other card would have paid for itself !
I don't know when gamers started worrying so much about full load power usage, negatively effecting our lives. lol
Does a eyefinity user lose sleep over the extra two monitor's using power ? Whats a monitor 50 watts continuous ?
:*humorous post 🙂

See above. >$17.08 more than makes up for the slightly less performance. Total cost of ownership of a GTX460 after a year vs HD6850 (assuming $180AR = $180) would be about the same if it weren't for power draws, though.

Monitors are typically not on 24/7 and even if they were left on, if you set your screensaver to Blank then they can idle at low wattage. And as a Eyefinity user I often turned off the side ones when they weren't needed. Easy to do with hotkeys. Something NV drivers could use.

 

[happy medium]

$17.08 more

Total utter bullshit. 17$! no effen way man. 13 cents a kilowatt? is that the US avarage or something. I pay 8 cents here in Philly.

Are you really gonna argue over 11 watts?
You gave reached an all time low, really man give it up. 🙁

Do you celebrate Christmas? well I wouldn't put lights on it , it might cost you 5$ .Jeeeez



No profanity in the tech sub forums


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[happy medium]

Again the answer to the OP's question is the gtx460 mops the floor with the 6850 when they are both at there max overclock and sometimes = or beats amore exspensive 6870.

The 6850 is also much hotter but consumes a whole 11 watts less power and still loses to a gtx460 @850 core.

[/QUOTE]

 

[blastingcap]

Total utter bullshit. 17$! no effen way man. 13 cents a kilowatt? is that the US avarage or something. I pay 8 cents here in Philly.

Are you really gonna argue over 11 watts?
You gave reached an all time low, really man give it up. 🙁

Do you celebrate Christmas? well I wouldn't put lights on it , it might cost you 5$ .Jeeeez

Swearing is not allowed in this subforum, nor are personal attacks.

http://www.green-energy-efficient-homes.com/how-much-does-electricity-cost.html

See this map to see what other people pay for power. (Perhaps your is 8 cents because you are at baseline tier or something?)

Also, internationally electricity can cost much more. Skurge said something like 80+ cents per kWh where he lives, I believe.

I work in the energy industry, so I do in fact think about efficiency probably more than the average American. But who wants to be the average American?

I also care about more than just costs, such as GHG emissions and resource depletion in general. Philly may have cheap electricity, but I bet a large portion of it is generated via hydrocarbons.

 

[happy medium]

Swearing is not allowed in this subforum, nor are personal attacks.

http://www.green-energy-efficient-homes.com/how-much-does-electricity-cost.html

See this map to see what other people pay for power. (Perhaps your is 8 cents because you are at baseline tier or something?)

Also, internationally electricity can cost much more. Skurge said something like 80+ cents per kWh where he lives, I believe.

I work in the energy industry, so I do in fact think about efficiency probably more than the average American. But who wants to be the average American?

I also care about more than just costs, such as GHG emissions and resource depletion in general. Philly may have cheap electricity, but I bet a large portion of it is generated via hydrocarbons.

Thanks for being an armchair mod. 🙂 I never insulted you.
No one cares about 11 watts dude , I answered the question
The gtx 460 is faster and sometimes much faster, give it up.

Poor kids with no x-mas lights this year, mabe I should underclock my cpu so I can afford it? 🙂

see post # 73