Q. about homosexuality in animals

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: Marshallj
Sure, they could live their life in a way which the public accepts, but will they be happy?

A gay guy might want to be with a man, but may force himself to marry a woman just to appear "normal". But deep down inside he won't really be sexually attracted to her.

Just because we're able to force ourselves to resist our urges doesn't mean that we'll be happy that way.
You know, my biggest complaint about ATOT is that people never read more than the first 2 lines of my posts. Read the whole fscking thing, okay?
Yaknow, where I said, "What bothers me is that homosexuals could be fighting for freedom of choice, for freedom to live their lives how they choose. That is something I would fully support. Instead, they're just fighting for a cause that says that people have no choice in life and have to live according to how they are born. Sad."
Thank you. Good day.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: theNEOone
you couldn't be more wrong. the cause they are fighting for is one of freedom. freedom of oppression and the freedom to live one's life as one see's fit. they are fighting for the right to be. it's the same thing that americans fought, and died for hundreds of years ago. what is sad is how blind you are.
I'm sorry. Perhaps you could try to explain just how the argument of "I can't help myself, I was born this way" involves any freedom whatsoever? I await your reply.
The rest of your post was just logical fallacies, I will ignore them.
 

theNEOone

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2001
5,745
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you have officially ruined a perfectly good exchange of ideas.


in your infinite wisdom, did you not realize that homosexuals do fight for freedom, only to be spit at by the opposition for being "unatural". there is now a fight for a "cause that says that people have no choice in life and have to live according to how they are born" because they have to prove that being gay is not a choice. the focus has changed because of ignorant people like you, not because of homosexuals.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: theNEOone
you have officially ruined a perfectly good exchange of ideas.


in your infinite wisdom, did you not realize that homosexuals do fight for freedom, only to be spit at by the opposition for being "unatural". there is now a fight for a "cause that says that people have no choice in life and have to live according to how they are born" because they have to prove that being gay is not a choice. the focus has changed because of ignorant people like you, not because of homosexuals.
Am I not communicating myself clearly? Did I call anyone "unnatural?"
I fail to see why they have to prove that being gay is not a choice. In fact, I would caution them against such an argument, as it is clearly loaded. It is the very thing that leads people to call them "unnatural." Instead, they should fight for the right to live their lives as they wish, as we all (both straight and gay alike) should.
Clearly, though, humanity is not yet ready for such thinking. Merely stating that I would support their freedom to live their lives how they choose has caused me to be labeled a bigot.
rolleye.gif
 

Nocturnal

Lifer
Jan 8, 2002
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I've been forcing myself not to kill myself for the past couple of years I think that's pretty good.
 

Marshallj

Platinum Member
Mar 26, 2003
2,326
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Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Marshallj
Sure, they could live their life in a way which the public accepts, but will they be happy?

A gay guy might want to be with a man, but may force himself to marry a woman just to appear "normal". But deep down inside he won't really be sexually attracted to her.

Just because we're able to force ourselves to resist our urges doesn't mean that we'll be happy that way.
You know, my biggest complaint about ATOT is that people never read more than the first 2 lines of my posts. Read the whole fscking thing, okay?
Yaknow, where I said, "What bothers me is that homosexuals could be fighting for freedom of choice, for freedom to live their lives how they choose. That is something I would fully support. Instead, they're just fighting for a cause that says that people have no choice in life and have to live according to how they are born. Sad."
Thank you. Good day.

I agreed with that part of your post so I had no reason to reply to it. Maybe I should have quoted it and said "I agree"


Sorry for the confusion, calm down.

 

chiwawa626

Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
12,013
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I read somewhere and i was told by others that the percentage of homosexuals in animal populations is pretty much the same as in human populations.
 

Judgement

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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In my opinion, homosexuals did not make the choice to be homosexual, but that sexual preference was deferred onto them through their experiences... they were not born that way. The facts are that humans are still animals, and all animals main purpose for existence is to further their race, this simply cannot be done through homosexuality; because of this, there is no reason for homosexuals to naturally exist in society.

Occurences of homosexuality all happen when the surroundings of the homosexual differ from their natural surroundings. In animals, when they do not have access to a mate they turn to anything they can find that may be able to satisfy their sexual instincts. The difference with humans is that because their brains are more comlex then other animals, their homosexual traits and feelings seem more real to the person, who is able to embrace these feelings and act on them on a more concious manner. Homosexuals may not have chosen to be homosexual, but they certainly were not designed to be that way, they are a victim of their circumstances.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
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do u make the choice to be hetero?

if hetero and yes.

really?

could you choose to be homo if your hetereo?

if yes,

really??

love another person of same sex and long for them with every fiber of your being?

if yes.

really?


u teh gay!!





hows that closet eh? spacious?
 

WebZeus

Junior Member
Jul 24, 2000
21
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0
BaliBabyDoc maybe this article will enlighten you to the research in the idea of hormone imblance as a case of homosexuality. And make you think next time you flame someone.

Neuroendocrinol Lett 2002 Aug;23(4):287-8 Related Articles, Links


Comment in:
Neuroendocrinol Lett. 2002 Aug;23(4):289-90.

Mating types in yeast, vomeronasal organ in rodents, homosexuality in humans: does a guiding thread exist?

Oliva D.

oliva12@libero.it

Pheromones and their receptors are the molecules used by very different organisms in order to join two haploid cells. It happens evidently in yeast, since the two blending haploid cells are also the two mating organisms, whereas in rodents pheromone receptors are the triggers of the vomeronasal system which, supervising sexual behaviors, is responsible for copulation and therefore for fertilization. The debate is still open about the real significance of pheromones in humans but a working vomeronasal organ, able to recognize pheromones of the same sex, could be the simplest biological explanation of homosexuality. This hypothesis is discussed and connected with some well known experimental data.

 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
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I don't think they're homosexuals, i think the animals are just confused. I've noticed this in some dogs, and it's always the very young that does it... but they'll also hump people's legs, fire hydrant, and anything else they can get on.

 

WebZeus

Junior Member
Jul 24, 2000
21
0
0
Big Toque maybe your girlfriend and you could read this article. I am not sure of the source but it may help answer your question more than a group of laymen.

J Homosex 2000;40(1):51-77 Related Articles, Links


The evolution of homoerotic behavior in humans.

Muscarella F.

Department of Psychology, Barry University, Miami Shores, FL 33161-6695, USA.

This paper presents a theoretical model for the evolution of same-sex sexual behavior, or homoerotic behavior, in humans. Contrary to the traditional study of the topic, the emphasis is on homoerotic behavior itself, irrespective of sexual orientation. It is an inferential model drawn from cross-species evidence, cross-cultural evidence, and current evolutionary theory. It is posited that humans evolved a disposition for homoerotic behavior because it increased same-sex affiliation among peripheralized hominids and indirectly influenced rates of survival and reproductive success. The implications for the conceptualization of same-sex sexual behavior and future research are indicated.
 

WebZeus

Junior Member
Jul 24, 2000
21
0
0
And this is the last one I promise but as was brought up before there has been research done that shows sexual preferance is not a choice or due to lack of the opposite sex.

Arch Sex Behav 2002 Feb;31(1):51-62 Related Articles, Links


Sexual partner preference in female Japanese macaques.

Vasey PL.

Department of Psychology and Neuroscience, University of Lethbridge, 4401 University Drive, Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada T1K 3M4. paul.vasey@uleth.ca

Whether animals ever exhibit a preference for same-sex sexual partners is a subject of debate. Japanese macaques represent excellent models for examining issues related to sexual preference in animals because females, in certain populations, routinely engage in both heterosexual and homosexual behavior over the course of their life spans. Multiple lines of evidence indicate that female homosexual behavior in Japanese macaques is a sexual behavior, not a sociosexual one. Additional evidence indicates that female Japanese macaques do not engage in homosexual behavior simply because acceptable male mates are unavailable or unmotivated to copulate. Patterns of sexual partner choice by female Japanese macaques that are the focus of intersexual competition indicate that females of this species choose same-sex sexual partners even when they are simultaneously presented with a motivated, opposite-sex alternative. Thus, in some populations of Japanese macaques, females prefer certain same-sex sexual partners relative to certain male mates, and vice versa. Taken together, this evidence suggests that female Japanese macaques are best characterized as bisexual in orientation, not preferentially homosexual or preferentially heterosexual.
 

Marshallj

Platinum Member
Mar 26, 2003
2,326
0
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Originally posted by: Judgement
The facts are that humans are still animals, and all animals main purpose for existence is to further their race, this simply cannot be done through homosexuality; because of this, there is no reason for homosexuals to naturally exist in society.

That's why I think it's a genetic mutation. A mutation doesn't have to be for the better, it's just s change. Some of those changes are successful and are passed down to offspring, some changes are not. Since most homosexuals do not reproduce, that gene won't get passed down.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION BOLSTERS CONDEMNATION OF REPARATIVE THERAPY' TO CHANGE' GAYS
  • The American Psychiatric Association was the first mental health organization to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1973. In August 1997, the American Psychological Association overwhelmingly passed a resolution at its convention that asserted that there is no sound scientific evidence on the efficacy of "reparative therapy," which seeks to "cure" homosexuals.
The APA Resolution on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation
  • Attempts to use psychological interventions to change sexual orientation are based on the discredited claim that homosexuality is a disease, a notion that represents an attempt to use the language of science to promote antigay prejudice. That view is completely inconsistent with the bulk of scientific research and with the official policies of the American Psychological Association (APA) and the American Psychiatric Association.


    It is highly doubtful that the so-called "conversion therapies" and "reparative therapies" are actually able to change a person's sexual orientation. Claims about their success are based on scattered anecdotal reports, not on rigorous scientific studies that have been subjected to review by other scientists...
Organizations of US Mental Health Professionals Are Unanimous:
  • Perhaps the best rebuttal to claims that gay or lesbian people can "change" their orientation is citation of the many organizations of health care professionals who have officially condemned "conversion" therapies. These include the following:

    American Academy of Pediatrics (1993):
    "Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."

    American Psychiatric Association (1998):
    "The potential risks of 'reparative therapy' are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior. . . . [T]he American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as 'reparative' or 'conversion' therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon a prior assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation." In response to Dr. Spitzer's new research (described below), the APA issued a statement affirming its position and cautioning that "there is no published evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation." The APA removed homosexuality from its list of disorders in 1973.

    American Psychological Association (1997):
    "No scientific evidence exists to support the effectiveness of any of the conversion therapies that try to change sexual orientation." The association removed homosexuality from its list of disorders in 1975.

    National Association of Social Workers (2000):
    "No data demonstrate that reparative and conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful. . . . uch treatment potentially can lead to severe emotional damage." The association removed homosexuality from its list of disorders in 1977.

    Cohler & Galatzer-Levy Report (commissioned by the American Psychoanalytic Association) (2000):
    "The mental health community must confront the ethics of directed efforts at changing sexual orientation. Generally these efforts are not successful. . . . uch purportedly therapeutic efforts do not work and may cause harm." The association removed homosexuality from its list of disorders in 1991.
 

amnesiac

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
15,781
1
71
Originally posted by: Marshallj
Originally posted by: Judgement
The facts are that humans are still animals, and all animals main purpose for existence is to further their race, this simply cannot be done through homosexuality; because of this, there is no reason for homosexuals to naturally exist in society.

That's why I think it's a genetic mutation.

In humans, it's a LOT more complicated than it is in animals. The incidence of a homosexual orientation can be determined in many animals by manipulating the levels of hormones during development.

With humans there are complicated cultural factors which can affect many things leading to the development of an alternate sexual orientation, and that is something completely out of the scope of this discussion.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,896
553
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"Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity" by Bruce Bagenmihl

- two percent of male ostriches ignore females and court males

i think that refutes the claim that animals are only homo because there are no members of the opposite sex around...
Not really. That there are members of the opposite sex available doesn't mean they are accessible. Although I'm not sure about ostriches, which have a brain the size of an acorn, many animals have by nature a dominant male (Alpha male) system whereby only the dominant male is permitted access or mating rights within the social group. Sexually frustrated because they're not permitted to mate, coupled with an enormous drive to do so, less-dominant males are often observed 'releasing' some of this sexual frustration/drive onto just about anything, including other males.

Further, animals mount each other in mock displays of dominance, which is why you will frequently see both dominant male and female dogs mount lesser dominant dogs of the same or different sex. This kind of behavior is far less about 'sex' or 'reproduction' than it is about mock/play displays of dominance.

I tend to believe that homosexuality as a matter of same-sex sexual arousal/attraction is probably not a matter of 'choice', per se, at least not a witting one, though homosexuality as an open life-style most certainly is. But that it may not implictly be a 'choice' doesn't necessarily mean it is 'normal', 'healthy', or even desirable.

Men who become pedophiles but were not themselves molested as children probably don't make a willing 'choice' to find children sexually arousing. Neither do sadomasochists or serial murderers make a willing 'choice' to find human suffering and dismemberment sexually arousing. Neither do those with bizarre fetishes make a willing 'choice' to find human excrement, or urine, or vomit, or high heeled shoes, and any number of other disfunctional and harmful obsessions, sexually arousing.

Its not as though one wakes-up in the morning and says to themselves "Hey, I think I'll give serial murder a try today. Always willing to try new things."

Instead, the 'graduation' to murder is the latest manifestation within a disorder of severe mental illness that is or has or will soon totally consume the individual.

There are a lot of things that can go horribly 'wrong' in the course of human psychological and mental development, much of which is still rather poorly understood and probably will be for a long time. The hope of 'treatment' for many serious mental disorders isn't all that promising.

You can't make a pedophile stop craving sexual interaction with children if he is already an accomplished child molestor. There may be some hope for treatment if caught early, well before a mentally ill person begins to act upon their fantasies and compulsions, but that almost never happens for a number of reasons.

Of course, if we were to have a very powerful lobby which not only seeks to, but to no small degree actually succeeds at, legitimizing sexual fetishes like sadomasochism, advocating it is not at all 'wrong' but perfectly normal and healthy, indeed just as normal and healthy as any other sexual practice, then we have done serious harm to the pursuit of truth and set-back efforts to first define or describe the illness, disorder, or malady, without which efforts to understand the cause of such things so it may one day lead to an effective treatment will not happen.

You can't 'treat' where no malady is perceived or acknowledged.
 

Trevelyan

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2000
4,077
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Originally posted by: gopunk
so you are saying that unless you have had sex with a woman, you are not heterosexual? calling a homosexual a homosexual is only as severly limiting as homosexual-intolerant people make it. a murderer is one who kills, a homosexual is someone who is attracted to members of their own sex. i fail to see how your example holds any water.

I disagree. Defining someone as a homosexual is a difficult thing to do, simply because there is no universal physical or scientific sign for homosexuality, whether it be a gene or whatnot.

Are you a homosexual for simply having a desire to have sex with someone of the same sex? What if you are a man and you've had sex with women before, and then had a desire for a friend? Are you then a homosexual simply because of that attraction? Or, rather, can the action you take or the decision you make ultimately decide...

Please do not get upset with me, as I am only trying to express my views on this issue. I understand that we disagree, and that is your right and I respect that, but understand that I will not sit quietly while people condemn me for not accepting homosexual behavior.
 

Marshallj

Platinum Member
Mar 26, 2003
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Originally posted by: amnesiac
With humans there are complicated cultural factors which can affect many things leading to the development of an alternate sexual orientation, and that is something completely out of the scope of this discussion.

You are giving people too much credit. We're just another form of animal.

Sure, a homosexual guy can resist his homosexual urge and get married and have kids, but that doesn't change the fact that he's still a homosexual that's just repressing his desires.

I think it's something that comes from within you, from the time you were born. It's not something you choose or need to learn.
 

Marshallj

Platinum Member
Mar 26, 2003
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I think there is intense political pressure from both religious groups and pro-gay groups preventing proper research from being done.

The religious side wants people to believe that it's a (wrong) choice that homosexuals make to be gay, and doesn't want research being done that may find out that the occurance of homosexuality in humans is mostly inate and may be due to a gene or chemical imbalance. The gay-rights side is also against such research, because of the possibility of discovering the same thing, that their sexual preference may be due to a genetic defect.

Neither side wants to admit that sexual preference may be instinctual... urges controlled by mechanisms deep within the brain that can possibly go wrong.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
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Originally posted by: BDawg
Homosexuality is most certainly observed in animals.

Thats not true. For the last damn time, animals have sex out of instinct, not reason or pleasure. Animals do not understand that they are unable to breed male on male or vice versus. Homosexuals who point to animals as a way to legitamize their sexual behavior is a joke. Animals don't have sex for pleasure, they have sex cause its a natural instinct to breed. Thats why most animals don't mate for life. Some do. I think wolves mate for life and I believe Lions do as well.
 

Marshallj

Platinum Member
Mar 26, 2003
2,326
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Originally posted by: classy


Thats not true. For the last damn time, animals have sex out of instinct, not reason or pleasure.

Wrong. Some animals do have sex for pleasure. Do a search on Dolphins.