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Putin writes op-ed in New York Times: "A Plea for Caution From Russia"

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Yeah I dont count the Soviet Unions vetoes against Russia. Why would you? And even if you did the vast majority of Soviet votes happend over 50 years ago. Anything past the mid 80s and the US has quite a bit more than Russia\crumbling Soviet Union.

If you don't count the Soviet Union then you are counting 65 years of US vetoes vs 22 years of Russian votes. That hardly seems like a good idea. If your statement is that in recent years the US has used its veto more often than other countries I agree with you, but we are simply not the all time veto leader.

This is a really minor point in the piece imo. A valid critcism but imo not worth fretting over.

I strongly disagree. The entire reason we are having this discussion is due to the mass murder of about 1500 people. This line more than any other shows just how willing Putin is to transparently lie to his audience.

I think his point is the UN would go the way of the LoN when it comes to having credibility to stop aggression. And I think he has a point. And you are proving it by pointing out all the times security member nations have disregarded the UN. And this point comes into play when certain nations are trying to acquire WMD. They dont have confidence the UN will stop aggressor nations(mainly the united states). So they are taking defense into their own hands.

Why would the UN suddenly go the way of the LoN with this intervention when it has not with so many previous ones? (some of which were undertaken by Russia) States have never deferred to the UN to establish their security, nor would they ever, regardless of the outcome here. That is simply not going to happen no matter what. Even if a state were 100% certain that UN Security Council resolutions would be followed no state would ever farm out their security to a separate voting body.

Ever.

You chopped off the point of bringing this up. International law requires authorization for the use of force by the UN unless in self defense. Unless we get the security council to authorize our use of force. We are in violation of international law.

I didn't chop off his point, of course we would be in violation of international law. That has literally zero to do with why Putin is protecting Syria however. Like... absolutely zero. Russia has made it abundantly clear over the years that they don't give a shit about international law.

I am curious who you believe is funding\supplying weapons to the rebels? In the videos I have seen they are using rather sophisticated equipment for a poor rebel army. A lot of western equipment with western optics.

And of course now we have this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...cf2ed8-1b0c-11e3-a628-7e6dde8f889d_story.html

Wait, why did you think I was arguing that we weren't supplying them with weapons? We have publicly stated that we are. We and other western nations are supplying the rebels with arms but the conflict existed before weapon #1 came into the country. Remember when all the protests against Assad were peaceful and Syrian troops were just straight out shooting people in the streets?

Unless you mean that if we weren't supplying the rebels with arms they would all have been murdered by Assad already, that is not fueling the conflict.

i think his proliferation is the strongest part of his piece. Iran, NK, and Syria. Two of the three axis of evil are or have developed nuclear weapons in the last decade? Why would they go about doing such a thing now? We like to believe it is because they want to funnel it to a terrorist organization to detonate on our home soil. Makes for a nice Tom Clancy novel. But what are the chances we will invade NK now? Once Iran goes nuclear think we dare step foot in their borders? Iran watching Iraq and Afghanistan go boom and now Syria about to go boom. It makes complete logical sense for self preservation to develope a nuclear weapon.

Syria wasn't part of the 'axis of evil', but both Iran and North Korea have pursued nuclear weapons long before any US invasion of Iraq. To tie their development program to US actions in Iraq is simply inaccurate.

As for the spread of terrorism. What do you think people in the ME will think when seeing American bombs dropping on another ME capital unprovoked? Think they will run to join our side or the side of the nutjobs? How about after a drone kills their friends and family?

As for the rest of his piece. It is pretty spot on. Discusses civilian casualties from our bombs, the examples of our interventions killing so many and solving nothing(Iraq,Afghanistan), and our getting involved with civil wars that ends not so well for everybody involved.

As an anecdote. On the anniversary of Benghazi killing 4 US citizens, including a diplomat. A car bomb detonates in Benghazi.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/explosion-damages-libya-foreign-ministry-article-1.1451904

Mission accomplished!

Yes, civilian casualties have the potential to spread terrorism.
 
The accusations of self serving BS and hypocrisy etc can be applied to pretty much every politician, most certainly including our dear leader. The messenger is not relevant as to whether the message is correct. I think his op-ed was correct, even if it's completely hypocritical coming from him.

You just don't like the fact that a scumbag like Putin once again showed how pathetic our dear leader is on the big stage when he doesn't have a teleprompter to give him the answer.

His op-ed contains numerous, easily identified lies.

Call me shocked that the guy who constantly tries to associate Obama with a murderous dictator by calling him 'dear leader' can't put aside his hatred of Obama long enough to realize when he's being bullshitted. Putin is playing you like a fiddle.

You're like the poster child for ODS.
 
This has to be the most transparent bullshit I have seen published in a very long time. Putin is truly a shit stain.

The guy who invaded Chechnya and Georgia without Security Council approval wants to tell America that taking military action without Security Council approval is wrong.

The guy who intervened in an internal Georgian conflict about South Ossetia wants to tell America not to get involved in the internal conflicts of foreign nations.

The guy who vetoed every single Security Council resolution against Syria, including ones that simply mentioned the possibility of UN sanctions in response to the mass slaughter of civilians by the Syrian government wants to tell America that we need to make the Security Council work.

There are plenty of good reasons to be against US intervention in Syria on the merits, but this op-ed is frankly pathetic.

Haha, he's just 'playing the game'. It was expected, I hope Obama is ready and up to the task.

And he pretty much hit every 'button' expected. But he did leave out the subject of WMD and Israeli's nukes. Maybe he'll play that card later. (Edit: My bad, Putin did mention "WMD"- another 'check mark' for him.)

LOL. I bet the WH is really busy today.

I expect the Repubs will be up in arms about this piece. But if the Dems are also all up in arms he may have overplayed this hand. OTOH judging by responses here it may that the public eats this up. If so he's cleverly maneuvered himself into leading, or appearing to lead, American public opinion while Obama is the odd man out.

I'd say be careful Obama, but I think it's too late. We're really being diminished here, I think.

Fern
 
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The fact that you repeatedly use "dear leader"

I use the term because it accurately reflects how many of his followers fawn over him and adore him and that he can do no wrong.

in reference to Obama shows exactly where your own objectivity lies.

I'm not one for pretending to be objective. I have a political perspective and biases just like everyone else.

I strongly suspect if this was Obama writing something "correct, but hypocritical" your reaction would be all about the hypocrisy and more about the messenger than the message.

As soon as he says something correct, we'll know if you're right 😀

I neither like nor support Putin, for many many reasons. That doesn't mean what he says about a particular issue or subject is not correct.
 
I'm gonna have to brush this article off as the baseless ranting of a desparate critic. Before Obama's efforts, Assad used chemical weapons to kill almost 1,500 civilians. Now thanks to Obama we have a diplomatic solution on the table that could very well remove those chemical weapons. And not a single American soldier was sent to Syria.

Contrast those developments to what we had 10 years ago, and I'd say that Obama is doing incredibly well.

Yes, it will be good if those chem weapons are destroyed as a result of this, but at what cost to us?

At this point I consider our cost far greater than the benefit that may be realized.

Fern
 
I don't want to sweep anything under the rug. Our problems are our problems, and we can discuss/debate them amongst ourselves. However, I'm not all that interested in listening to outsiders lecture us over matters for which they are as bad or worse.
-snip-

Do you not see any irony here?

Fern
 
Originally Posted by eskimospy
Shockingly enough, that author still thinks the Iraq war was a great idea, btw.
Yeah, he's a typical delusional, hypocritical shill of the right wing. No credibility whatsoever.

Are you some kind of bot programmed with a few anti-Repub slogans?

The author of the article is Putin, referring to him as a "shill of the right wing" is pretty damn funny.

Fern
 
From the UK:
The humiliation of Obama

... Obama has only himself to blame for the shocking mess he has drifted into...

‘Americans started a war in Iraq that killed tens of thousands of Iraqis. We tortured people.

‘And now we launch drones around the globe — weapons that give, to a very small number of people, the power of judge, jury and hangman all at once.

‘These acts have eroded our authority to pronounce on moral issues in foreign affairs.’

... Many of us will be much relieved if the Western powers do not intervene militarily in Syria.

But the decline in the moral stature of the United States, and in respect for its president among his own people and abroad, is just cause for regret to us all.
From Germany:
Der Speigel
The American elite holds stubbornly fast to the belief that their country can use its military to act as the arbiter of global democracy, even without a mandate from the UN. That leads God's own country to look down with sovereign contempt upon "Old Europe," and other states. But this view is coming up against increasing opposition in the world. Putin simply says openly what many in Berlin and elsewhere are saying in a shamed whisper.
If you are offended because, unlike Obama, I prefer diplomacy to cruise missiles, I'm okay with that... Though, if it makes you feel better, I'll agree that Obama could have handled the situation much more effectively than he did.

Uno
 
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After reading the article I have to admit that Putin seems very reasonable and I'm kind of agreeing with him on this.

Let's be absolutely clear about one thing: Putin is a snake. Don't forget that or what he truly holds dear. He will lie down on his belly and then bite the United States in it's heel like a poisonous snake. Putin is kind of like Stalin in a way.
 
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This has to be the most transparent bullshit I have seen published in a very long time. Putin is truly a shit stain.

The guy who invaded Chechnya and Georgia without Security Council approval wants to tell America that taking military action without Security Council approval is wrong.

The guy who intervened in an internal Georgian conflict about South Ossetia wants to tell America not to get involved in the internal conflicts of foreign nations.

The guy who vetoed every single Security Council resolution against Syria, including ones that simply mentioned the possibility of UN sanctions in response to the mass slaughter of civilians by the Syrian government wants to tell America that we need to make the Security Council work.

There are plenty of good reasons to be against US intervention in Syria on the merits, but this op-ed is frankly pathetic.
Yes, correct. We have dropped the ball on foreign policy. All sorts of indicators are out there. Like entertainment resides in both the cultural and economic center of the world at any given time. The fact that Hollywood is taking it on the chin so badly lately is really not a good sign. They just can't convey through movies the types of themes people want to see abroad apparently.

The fact that Putin gets to actually publish an op-ed in America and people take him seriously is dumb.
 
Okay guys, his letter is full of "lies" and crap. We get it. Easily refutable? Perhaps someone should compose such a rebuttal. You think our leader would be up for it?

We'll dub it the 2013 Pen Wars.
 
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Okay guys, his letter is full of "lies" and crap. We get it. Easily refutable? Perhaps someone should compose such a rebuttal. You think our leader would be up for it?

Why? Its much easier to call him a snake, a pig, or make some trollish remarks (i.e. "invading" Chechnya, LOL). Rebuttal takes logic and more effort to write.
 
Why? Its much easier to call him a snake, a pig, or make some trollish remarks (i.e. "invading" Chechnya, LOL). Rebuttal takes logic and more effort to write.

Uhmm, I already did that.

What are your thoughts about the Russian invasion of Georgia? Does that merit a LOL also?
 
Okay guys, his letter is full of "lies" and crap. We get it. Easily refutable? Perhaps someone should compose such a rebuttal. You think our leader would be up for it?

We'll dub it the 2013 Pen Wars.

Uh oh, now you've gone and done it.

I.e., setting up expectations for Obama's counter move in this diplomatic game of chess. I hope he's up for it.

Fern
 
Uhmm, I already did that.

What are your thoughts about the Russian invasion of Georgia? Does that merit a LOL also?

I know you mean well. But I hope Obama takes a different tack. If each side resorts to pointing out the others' past failures and transgressions, well let's just say the world might think Putin's ammo is stronger - ya know, the Iraq thingy. And then there's always the problem of wrestling with a pig.....

Don't take the bait Obama!

Fern
 
Let's be absolutely clear about one thing: Putin is a snake. Don't forget that or what he truly holds dear. He will lie down on his belly and then bite the United States in it's heel like a poisonous snake. Putin is kind of like Stalin in a way.

Right... so because of this everything he says is automatically wrong? 🙄

I'm surprised you didn't say he's kind of like Satan.

It amazes me what passes for political discourse these days...
 
I know you mean well. But I hope Obama takes a different tack. If each side resorts to pointing out the others' past failures and transgressions, well let's just say the world might think Putin's ammo is stronger - ya know, the Iraq thingy. And then there's always the problem of wrestling with a pig.....

Don't take the bait Obama!

Fern

Oh Obama won't issue any rebuttal, that would be a dumb idea. Nobody cares if I call Putin a liar, but that would be foolish to do in this current situation. You pay Putin back later.
 
Right... so because of this everything he says is automatically wrong? 🙄

I'm surprised you didn't say he's kind of like Satan.

It amazes me what passes for political discourse these days...

Not automatically wrong, just very devious. I'm not saying the letter is without merit, because there is lots of merit. I believe that Russia is willing to work with the USA.

I'm just saying that Putin is a snake, that's all.
 
Good article by Putin. He is smart enough to understand the problems and tell it like it is. He owned obama once again and is more competent than him.
 
Oh Obama won't issue any rebuttal, that would be a dumb idea. Nobody cares if I call Putin a liar, but that would be foolish to do in this current situation. You pay Putin back later.

Catch 22?

He'll look weak/be called weak.

(I think Putin's letter wasn't just aimed at the USA. That last paragraph stands out to me. The subject of "exceptionalism" doesn't mesh with the rest. IMO, that's for consumption by the rest of the world, mostly Europe and the ME.)

Fern
 
Uhmm, I already did that.

No, you did not. 🙄

What are your thoughts about the Russian invasion of Georgia? Does that merit a LOL also?

Russia invaded Georgia to save its own citizens from Georgian military agression (armed and trained by NATO). There are no Americans to save in Syria, its on the other side of this planet. Your Russia-Georgia war "argument" is a straw man, just like invasion of Chechnya (get a world map, Chechnya is Russia, you can't invade yourself, LOL).
 
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