Push for $15 minimum wage

[Jaskalas]

I would say the real problem with people who have slow rigid brains is when you take the cog away from the wheel it wont know what to do. How do you tackle that?

When they are laid off they'll have plenty of time to consider it.
We just have to make sure they don't stand in the way of the next economic system.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

It wont be a black and white moment. As time goes by we will slowly remove jobs from the economy to automation. What do you do with these people? Let them starve? We talked about this in the self driving car thread. Soon we will have no drivers. Through no fault of their own they will no longer have jobs. So we tell them to do something else and that something's pay will become lower. At some point nobody needs to work.

imo this is the point where people will admit eugenics isn't an unspeakable evil. The world population continues to explode, but there's no reason it has to. As our overall standard of living increases so will the cost of having children. We just need to push birth control harder, and encourage skill-less members of society to reproduce less.

Computers can make art now. Certainly art can be made by computers but what excites us as humans is connecting in some way with other humans. We will all have that ability to create art and do it in an interesting way as a means of connecting with each other.

We will need a new economic model to take us forward past that point. One that doesnt require winners and losers in a system designed to make you sacrifice your best years for someone else - and Im saying this as someone who has had 2 days off since October.

That sounds nice and all, but I still don't see how free college (or anything else in the realm of possibility) gets us there.

 

[JSt0rm]

When they are laid off they'll have plenty of time to consider it.
We just have to make sure they don't stand in the way of the next economic system.

Yup. And thats why a minimum income makes sense.

 

[JSt0rm]

imo this is the point where people will admit eugenics isn't an unspeakable evil.

D:

ok I think we are done here. anandtech.txt strikes again. We must all feel so proud.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

This is actually false. Just because you dont understand how the sausage is made doesnt mean it doesnt require critical thinking.

Artistic technique requires skill and thinking, but not necessarily critical thinking. Per Google, it is:

the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment

Is there objective analysis in art? Certainly a painting can be looked at and said to contain a blue palette or fine strokes or other physical characteristics, but that isn't what defines art. A person can make their own judgment on what they feel to be the artistic significance of a painting, e.g. one painting being a kitschy reproduction of a home decorated for Christmas, the other a profound statement on society or the artists' feelings or whatever. That's still a personal judgment, however.

Name any other field of study that requires less critical thinking (burger flipping isn't a study btw).

 

[HamburgerBoy]

D:

ok I think we are done here. anandtech.txt strikes again. We must all feel so proud.

What's your view on incestuous relationships?

 

[sandorski]

If $15/hr pushes Business to eliminate Workers and $0/hr is the Natural Minimum Wage, what good does $ have to Workers? In an Age where Automation is possible and becoming more common, Workers are increasingly becoming redundant.

Given that, how do Societies made up of mostly Workers transition from an Economy based around Workers to one that does not?

 

[JSt0rm]

Artistic technique requires skill and thinking, but not necessarily critical thinking. Per Google, it is:



Is there objective analysis in art? Certainly a painting can be looked at and said to contain a blue palette or fine strokes or other physical characteristics, but that isn't what defines art. A person can make their own judgment on what they feel to be the artistic significance of a painting, e.g. one painting being a kitschy reproduction of a home decorated for Christmas, the other a profound statement on society or the artists' feelings or whatever. That's still a personal judgment, however.

Name any other field of study that requires less critical thinking (burger flipping isn't a study btw).

Painting a picture is not the only use of artistic skills. But yeah seriously you are insane and we dont need to talk anymore.

 

[JSt0rm]

If $15/hr pushes Business to eliminate Workers and $0/hr is the Natural Minimum Wage, what good does $ have to Workers? In an Age where Automation is possible and becoming more common, Workers are increasingly becoming redundant.

Given that, how do Societies made up of mostly Workers transition from an Economy based around Workers to one that does not?

eugenics?

 

[sandorski]

eugenics?

I suppose if we could Engineer People who don't need to Eat, Drink, wear Clothing, or need Shelter, that could be a solution.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

eugenics?

A mother has an ultrasound performed and knows her child will have microcephaly, and never be a functional member of society. Do you think it would be a bad idea to discourage her from conceiving?

 

[alcoholbob]

pushing everyone into skilled trade will have the same effect on supply and demand. Just skilled trades will make less because so many people will be working them.

The real answer is a minimum income, free college and universal health care. Then we will be prepared for a future without work.

This fantasy is only possible if the dollar remains the reserve currency of the world forever...that somehow the manufacturing centers of the world will continue to buy treasuries as tribute to the United States in exchange for military protection and produce goods for America for paper IOUs, and energy will continue to be sold in dollars. China joining the SDR , record bilaterial trade deals, AIIB completely invalidates that delusion.

 

[ivwshane]

Raising the minimum wage is an attempt to fix a symptom, not the problem.

In the absence of tackling the underlying issue raising the minimum wage is all we have left.

 

[rudder]

The real answer is a minimum income, free college and universal health care. Then we will be prepared for a future without work.

Unless you are one of the people who get a pre med degree then go on to medical college. Then you have to work while everyone sits around all day. Sure you will make $200,000 a year but we can't have that kind of income disparity with those earning a minimum income. It is just not fair. We can just raise the minimum income to $200,000 a year and everyone will be equal.

 

[sandorski]

Unless you are one of the people who get a pre med degree then go on to medical college. Then you have to work while everyone sits around all day. Sure you will make $200,000 a year but we can't have that kind of income disparity with those earning a minimum income. It is just not fair. We can just raise the minimum income to $200,000 a year and everyone will be equal.

Making everyone have Equal Income is not the point of the Minimum Wage or in providing Minimum Income.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Raising the minimum wage is an attempt to fix a symptom, not the problem.

In the absence tackling the underlying issue raising the minimum wage is all we have left.

Ok I think this is the first actual response in the thread. I agree, I just think the "fix" will make the symptom worse not better. In the short term it will benefit some people, but it will also hurt a lot of people too. It'll be much tougher to find employment as a high school kid or someone putting themselves through college.

I do agree that it doesn't fix the problem per se. Genuine question, how would you even define the problem? Just poverty in general, a persistent poverty that passes from one generation to the next in certain segments of society, growing income inequality, the demise of the middle class, increased competition in the world both in terms of intellectual capital coupled with countries with low cost of labor and lax environmental/other regulations, all of the above? Inflation (surely not)?

To be honest I'm not sure, some people's lives are rough. They always have been and when they can't find work because they are too expensive to employ it'll only be rougher.


edit: this seems to be a real push in the US, Bernie is campaigning on it and the NYT Editorial Board is pushing Hillary to do the same, so surely someone on here has real arguments for a $15 (or any) minimum wage. To me it seems fool-hearty and will harm a lot of workers short term and even more when technology is built out to replace them in the mid to long term. It is very shortsighted to think that businesses won't do this either, and I'm reminded of that every time I check myself out at Walmart or Home Depot.

 

[glenn1]

Making everyone have Equal Income is not the point of the Minimum Wage or in providing Minimum Income.

I'm sorry but giving away other people's money to ease your fear that the proles will slit your throat in an uprising isn't a reason for a minimum income. First of all, I don't care if they do, either you can protect yourself or you can bribe them yourself. Secondly, we've been giving the proles free money for years via Great Society programs and their lives are more fucked up than ever. There's basically no moral or practical reason to give money to people who have done absolutely nothing to earn or deserve it.

 

[sandorski]

I'm sorry but giving away other people's money to ease your fear that the proles will slit your throat in an uprising isn't a reason for a minimum income. First of all, I don't care if they do, either you can protect yourself or you can bribe them yourself. Secondly, we've been giving the proles free money for years via Great Society programs and their lives are more fucked up than ever. There's basically no moral or practical reason to give money to people who have done absolutely nothing to earn or deserve it.

Stupid narcissistic post is stupid and narcissistic.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Stupid narcissistic post is stupid and narcissistic.

AT is full of that from both sides, ignore it. I take it you are in favor of the $15 minimum (or maybe Hillary's push for $12 minimum), which is great and the point of starting the thread was to hear the rationale for it.

So what are your arguments for the increase in minimum wage and do you agree that it will have detrimental effects as well? If so in your opinion does the good outweigh the bad? And what do you see being the long term effects?

 

[sandorski]

AT is full of that from both sides, ignore it. I take it you are in favor of the $15 minimum (or maybe Hillary's push for $12 minimum), which is great and the point of starting the thread was to hear the rationale for it.

So what are your arguments for the increase in minimum wage and do you agree that it will have detrimental effects as well? If so in your opinion does the good outweigh the bad? And what do you see being the long term effects?

Raising the Minimum Wage has always had a net benefit. That doesn't guarantee that $15 or some increase will do the same, but it gives confidence that it will.

As has been stated by myself and others though, there needs to be something that provides for the Needs of People. The Minimum Wage is just one method of doing it. It's fine to not like the Minimum Wage, but what do you like?

 

[glenn1]

Raising the Minimum Wage has always had a net benefit. That doesn't guarantee that $15 or some increase will do the same, but it gives confidence that it will.

As has been stated by myself and others though, there needs to be something that provides for the Needs of People. The Minimum Wage is just one method of doing it. It's fine to not like the Minimum Wage, but what do you like?

You state that there is a "need" to provide like that is a fact rather than just your preference. Did it somehow get added to Maslow's Hierarchy while the rest of us weren't looking, and if so what level of "need" is it?

 

[UglyCasanova]

Raising the Minimum Wage has always had a net benefit. That doesn't guarantee that $15 or some increase will do the same, but it gives confidence that it will.

As has been stated by myself and others though, there needs to be something that provides for the Needs of People. The Minimum Wage is just one method of doing it. It's fine to not like the Minimum Wage, but what do you like?

I don't have a silver bullet unfortunately. The search to provide for the needs of the people has been the fundamental question for the entire existence of humanity. I guess the start to even begin to discuss it might be to define what are the needs? At the very core it would be making sure everyone has adequate food, water, and shelter in order to keep them alive. Past that it is an open question.

Thank you for the response though and I welcome an actual discussion (hopefully with minimal "typical lib always wanting free shit" or "ignorant conservatives out of touch with reality" type responses).

 

[ivwshane]

Ok I think this is the first actual response in the thread. I agree, I just think the "fix" will make the symptom worse not better. In the short term it will benefit some people, but it will also hurt a lot of people too. It'll be much tougher to find employment as a high school kid or someone putting themselves through college.

I do agree that it doesn't fix the problem per se. Genuine question, how would you even define the problem? Just poverty in general, a persistent poverty that passes from one generation to the next in certain segments of society, growing income inequality, the demise of the middle class, increased competition in the world both in terms of intellectual capital coupled with countries with low cost of labor and lax environmental/other regulations, all of the above? Inflation (surely not)?

To be honest I'm not sure, some people's lives are rough. They always have been and when they can't find work because they are too expensive to employ it'll only be rougher.

Every study I've seen has shown that raising the minimum wage has a minimal impact on employment and costs. The fact of the matter is that there aren't really that many people making minimum wage (roughly 4% of the working population). This is also why raising the minimum wage will have little impact on the issue of the increasing wealth gap.

The underlying problem, imo, is that more and more people are making money from money and I don't mean by doing things like creating companies that create products that then return a profit. A lot of highly educated people are turning to wall Street instead of going into a field that is directly related to their degree because the money is easier. The problem with this is that this type of economy has the least amount of real impact on the economy. Wall Street doesn't add sustainable jobs that then lead to the creation of other jobs, it doesn't create innovation which typically leads to new industries which then leads to new jobs. What it does is cause companies to maximize profit in the here and now instead of looking at long term sustained growth, it causes companies to do stock buy backs to inflate their worth as opposed to actually increasing their worth through innovation and investment, it causes wall street to create money schemes that make money while adding nothing of substance to the economy, essentially it creates a house of Cards where any disruption in the flow of money in the system they created will cause it all to come crashing down. Money created in this system only lasts as long as the scheme keeps going. When wealth is concentrated a whole host of issues start coming up and all are ultimately not good when it comes to sustaining a healthy society and a strong Country.

I see two possible scenarios; we will continue to have a boom bust economy with worsening effects or other less developed countries will see their wealth increase and a parity with first world nations like ours will happen (as in their standard of living will rise).

http://northstar-www.dartmouth.edu/~pwolfson/Belman-Wolfson-What-Does-the-MW-Do-Conclusion.pdf

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ma...are_harvard_grads_still_fl051758.php?page=all

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ny-fed-...oyment-for-young-college-graduates-1454079989

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/100814/wall-streets-enduring-impact-economy.asp

 

[sandorski]

You state that there is a "need" to provide like that is a fact rather than just your preference. Did it somehow get added to Maslow's Hierarchy while the rest of us weren't looking, and if so what level of "need" is it?

Survival.

 

[JSt0rm]

A mother has an ultrasound performed and knows her child will have microcephaly, and never be a functional member of society. Do you think it would be a bad idea to discourage her from conceiving?

backpeddling now?