Purpose of a transformer in a rectification circuit

grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
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I'm looking to replace the transformer in a Makita battery charger. The transformer is actually a step up, taking it from the 100v used in Japan to 125v then red to a KBU4D bridge rectifier. The KBU4D is rated for up to 140v, and got me wondering if the circuit could be used without a transformer, just the standard 110v used in the US.

Does the transformer help stabilize or otherwise condition the line voltage? What's the purpose of using it in this circuit?
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
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I'm guessing the charger works like this:

Line Voltage->Step up Transformer->Diode Bridge Rectifier->Capacitor->DC/DC Converter->Battery (with Voltage/Temp/Current Feedback to DC/DC Converter

The DC/DC Converter probably is designed to operate at 125V i guess and the transformer provides that and isolation from the line power.

 

grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: PottedMeat
I'm guessing the charger works like this:

Line Voltage->Step up Transformer->Diode Bridge Rectifier->Capacitor->DC/DC Converter->Battery (with Voltage/Temp/Current Feedback to DC/DC Converter

The DC/DC Converter probably is designed to operate at 125V i guess and the transformer provides that and isolation from the line power.

That looks like the circuit.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: PottedMeat
I'm guessing the charger works like this:

Line Voltage->Step up Transformer->Diode Bridge Rectifier->Capacitor->DC/DC Converter->Battery (with Voltage/Temp/Current Feedback to DC/DC Converter

The DC/DC Converter probably is designed to operate at 125V i guess and the transformer provides that and isolation from the line power.

That would be a very odd design. The whole point of a DC/DC converter is to avoid the need for a bulky and heavy transformer.

I'm not saying it isn't, but it seems totally redundant - to use an expensive DC/DC converter, and add a transformer which completely obviates the benefits of the converter.

It's not something funny like a common mode choke, or a PFC correction choke?
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Mark R
Originally posted by: PottedMeat
I'm guessing the charger works like this:

Line Voltage->Step up Transformer->Diode Bridge Rectifier->Capacitor->DC/DC Converter->Battery (with Voltage/Temp/Current Feedback to DC/DC Converter

The DC/DC Converter probably is designed to operate at 125V i guess and the transformer provides that and isolation from the line power.

That would be a very odd design. The whole point of a DC/DC converter is to avoid the need for a bulky and heavy transformer.

I'm not saying it isn't, but it seems totally redundant - to use an expensive DC/DC converter, and add a transformer which completely obviates the benefits of the converter.

It's not something funny like a common mode choke, or a PFC correction choke?

Maybe they're saving design costs on a new DC/DC that can run at 100VDC? Kinda strange, but lots of strange things happen. The company might have a really weak engineering department.
 

Gibson486

Lifer
Aug 9, 2000
18,378
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Originally posted by: Mark R
Originally posted by: PottedMeat
I'm guessing the charger works like this:

Line Voltage->Step up Transformer->Diode Bridge Rectifier->Capacitor->DC/DC Converter->Battery (with Voltage/Temp/Current Feedback to DC/DC Converter

The DC/DC Converter probably is designed to operate at 125V i guess and the transformer provides that and isolation from the line power.

That would be a very odd design. The whole point of a DC/DC converter is to avoid the need for a bulky and heavy transformer.

I'm not saying it isn't, but it seems totally redundant - to use an expensive DC/DC converter, and add a transformer which completely obviates the benefits of the converter.

It's not something funny like a common mode choke, or a PFC correction choke?

It is odd, but is very common.
 

CurseTheSky

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 2006
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A circuit like this is designed to do three things:

First, the AC signal passes through a transformer. Transformers are inductors with a special coil winding which allows the AC signal to either be multiplied, or reduced. Thus you can "step-up" or "step-down" the signal. However, transformers provide one more very important thing - isolation. Since a transformer is actually an inductor, there is no physically connection for the AC current to flow between the input coils and the output coils. This is a safety feature for both people and the electronics, as it keeps the circuit from unloading constantly, in the case of a short.

The input signal looks something like this... a lot of imagination really comes into play here, since it's sort of hard to show with ASCII (also note, the peaks would be rounded, not triangular):
/\--/\--/\--/
--\/--\/--\/--\/


Second, it takes an AC input (sine wave) and evens it off into a DC output (square wave, or a "line" in this case). The rectifier is responsible for letting only the correct cycles of the AC current through (for example, only the positive cycles), thus eliminating the "valleys" between the "hills."

The resulting signal:
/\_/\_/\_/\_/


Finally, the filter capacitors charge with the remaining current, and discharge, evening out the gaps between the voltage peeks. Depending on how "dirty" the signal can be, the circuit may use many filters, or no filters at all. If you have an electronic device that's giving out a lot of static, noise, or other garbage, the problem is often these filter capacitors in the power supply (though things like radios also use tuning capacitors, are subject to loss of signal quality over distance, etc. - it gets messy).

Again, imagination is needed, but the result looks something like:

/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\ (dirty)
/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\ (cleaner)
----------------- (cleanest)
 

highwire

Senior member
Nov 5, 2000
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I have noticed, Mark R seem to get things right regarding circuitry. Yes, it would be an odd way to design something. First of all, if the object was to boost input from 100 to 125 or so, an autotransformer connected transformer can be less than 1/4 the wattage rating of a full transformer. But, an autotransformer does not isolate input and output. So, I tend to think the xfmr is there for isolation (safety) and to make EMI filtering much easier. I used to do this sort of thing all day for money. A little plug-in-the-wall gadget has to please a lot of agencies to get produced. Other than that, the xfmr is useless. From a design point of view, just change the dc-dc inverter turns ratio and you are there.

BTW, no manufacturer making things for large markets like Japan and USA with production runs of many 1000's or even 100's of thousands would complicate a design and add an expense part just for for commonality of a cheap part.

grrl:

I'm looking to replace the transformer in a Makita battery charger. The transformer is actually a step up, taking it from the 100v used in Japan to 125v then red to a KBU4D bridge rectifier. The KBU4D is rated for up to 140v, and got me wondering if the circuit could be used without a transformer, just the standard 110v used in the US.
Does the transformer help stabilize or otherwise condition the line voltage? What's the purpose of using it in this circuit?

comment:
A xfmr will saturate and provide some diode protection just like a MOV resistor does when placed across the line. Also, the switcher circuit used may not provide ANY line isolation if it was designed to be used with the input xfmr. In that case, going without a xfmr could be unsafe.