Pure PsyX performance

[Carfax83]

The first question you answered yourself. You could have easily tested it by using a single 580 (with/without physx), then a 580 with a 250 for physx, then a 580 and the second for physx. Either way, ignorance is bliss and being you didn't test it or at least don't seem to have based on your post.

Actually I did test it, but not with a GTX 580. I tested it with a GTX 480 with no PhysX card installed, and sure enough, it ran significantly slower.

In my experience, a dedicated PhysX card is always best, providing it can handle the PhysX.

The 250 might be fast enough for the 580, there is a certain ratio or dependency factor and it does depend on the game. It's guaranteed to fail on BL2 4 player but then again so does everything else

How can you say there is a ratio of dependency, when the ONLY thing a dedicated PhysX card does is calculate game physics?

Is a Titan going to create more particles than a GTX 580? No it won't, because the amount of particles is determined at the SOFTWARE LEVEL, not the hardware.

As for the 660 ti, Multiplayer?

I specifically said single player when I made my original statement. PhysX in multiplayer is still fairly rare due to the performance cost.

 

[toyota]

I have the collector's edition of Mafia 2, and I played and beat that game twice; first with 480 SLI and then with 580 SLI. I used my GTS 250 for PhysX in both games, and I experienced no problems whatsoever, despite NVidia claiming I needed a GTX 285. I also played Batman Arkham City with the GTS 250 (although I overclocked it a bit) and experienced no frame rate issues.

So if you were dumb enough to use a GTX 285 for Mafia 2's PhysX, then my hats off to you..



I have almost every hardware accelerated PhysX title, and what you say here runs contrary to my own experience. The speed of the main GPU has absolutely no correlation with the speed of the PhysX card, since the PhysX effects are determined by SOFTWARE not hardware.

The only thing that matters is whether the PhysX card can perform the PhysX computations adequately and is not overwhelmed. If it can do that, then there should be no performance issues.

I never even considered upgrading my PhysX card until I played Metro Last Light and got into a gun battle with the Nazis (the part where the Nazi is beating the crap out of that guy and forcing him to call his mother a whore) which had a lot of destructible objects. All of the particle effects overwhelmed my GTS 250 (for the FIRST time ever) and caused the game to freeze. That's when I decided to get a GTX 460.

you do NOT have a freaking clue what you are talking about. hardware physx is done on the gpu and if your main gpu is fast enough then it can handle the graphics and physx just as well if not better than offloading to another gpu. that means the faster your main gpu is then the faster your physx card needs to be or you might as well let the main card do everything. an example is that a Titan can run graphics and physx better than offloading to a gts250 and that is a fact. now if you have a gtx470 or gtx480 or then sure the gts250 for physx will help as its better than a gtx480 doing both graphics and physx.

that is why there is no such thing a physx card being made anymore. heck Nvidia does not even tell you what cards to use because it will always change based on how demanding the game is what your main gpu is.

EDIT: maybe a picture can help you understand. an 8600gt would help or break even with a gtx260. I know because I used that setup and there were reviews of that too. but as you can see its too slow if you are using a gtx480. well that gt240 that is barely helping the gtx480 would only slow down gtx680 and goes on and on. so again the faster your main gpu is then the faster your physx card has to be.

 

[sxr7171]

as I already mentioned its a moving target. it depends on the game and your main gpu so there is no way they can go through every combination. whats overkill for one game and setup may not cut it at all for another.

But apparently they do test "thousands" of combinations of settings under their GeForce Exeperience program.


https://developer.nvidia.com/geforce-experience

 

[UNhooked]

I bought a OEM GT 640 for Physx. Now while I haven't played BL2 yet, but in Metro LL even during intense fight scenes my FPS barely dipped below my FPS limited set to 40. If you have a store with a lenient return policy, I would get the GT 640 first, OC the core since higher core frequency equals better Physx performance and then see if that's enough. From what I have researched memory speed doesn't matter too much.

As a comparison the highest utilization of my GT 640 was about 53% and since I am running Xfire 7970s, its faster than a single Titan. So based on this I would think the GT 640 would be more than enough. This is of course only based on Metro LL. I do have to say that my OEM GT 640 is actually a GTX 650 with lower clock rates.

 

[Jaydip]

Please change the thread title.It sounds like professor X to me

 

[Carfax83]

you do NOT have a freaking clue what you are talking about. hardware physx is done on the gpu and if your main gpu is fast enough then it can handle the graphics and physx just as well if not better than offloading to another gpu..

Running PhysX on your primary GPU only makes sense when that GPU isn't being fully taxed and has unused resources.

that means the faster your main gpu is then the faster your physx card needs to be or you might as well let the main card do everything

I don't know how you draw this conclusion, because as I've repeatedly told you, PhysX is set at the SOFTWARE level, and not the hardware. Having a fast main GPU doesn't necessarily mean you need a fast PhysX card. The PhysX card only needs to be fast enough to handle the PhysX workload so as to not slow down the game.

If your primary GPU can't do both rendering and PhysX at the same time, you can lower the number of particles by adjusting the setting. Same if you're running a dedicated card.

an example is that a Titan can run graphics and physx better than offloading to a gts250 and that is a fact.

No it's NOT a fact. If the Titan is being taxed by having to render the game at a very high resolution and 3D settings, then adding PhysX to the mix will degrade performance. For example, if you're running Metro Last Light at 2560x1600 with SSAAx4 enabled, everything on very high... What then?

Suddenly the Titan is out of enough resources to run PhysX. That's when you put a dedicated PhysX card in there, and even a lowly GTX 460 which is far slower than a Titan will boost performance considerably because it can easily handle the PhysX in Metro last Light.

now if you have a gtx470 or gtx480 or then sure the gts250 for physx will help as its better than a gtx480 doing both graphics and physx.

It doesn't matter if your primary GPU is a 480, 680 or a Titan. What matters is if it's being fully taxed, then even a GTS 250 can ease the burden by offloading PhysX calculations.

Your graph proves this in fact.

that is why there is no such thing a physx card being made anymore. heck Nvidia does not even tell you what cards to use because it will always change based on how demanding the game is what your main gpu is.

People that run dedicated PhysX cards like myself, typically play at GPU limited settings. If you don't play at GPU limited settings, then getting a dedicated PhysX card doesn't make sense.

EDIT: maybe a picture can help you understand. an 8600gt would help or break even with a gtx260. I know because I used that setup and there were reviews of that too. but as you can see its too slow if you are using a gtx480. well that gt240 that is barely helping the gtx480 would only slow down gtx680 and goes on and on. so again the faster your main gpu is then the faster your physx card has to be.

If anything, that graph helps my argument because it shows how running even a lowly GT 240 with only 96 shader cores boosted performance over running PhysX on the 480, a much faster card and did not slow it down.

Also, a 9800 GTX is slower than a GTS 250, which is the PhysX card I used to play Mafia 2 and it still delivers very playable framerates. And once you get to a GTX 275 and above, the performance gains start to level off, because the PhysX workload is completely handled with ease.

 

[Lepton87]

Toyota what you're saying is true, that a faster main card needs a faster PsyX card, but I want my psyx card to be capable of sustaining 60fps (vsyns), I don't need it to catch up to Titan at 200fps at lower graphics settings and Vsync off. Right now I don't know if it's worth it on my mobo, it splits CPU lines like this 16/2 8 lines go to the first slot/ 8 lines go to NF200 and it outputs them at 16x/16x for 3/4 slots. I would need an additional card to be put in one slot since NF200 only activates when 3 slots are populated. I don't have many PCI-E cards laying around, 8800GTS512 and 7800GTX but they would draw a lot of power and make the airflow problematic.

Also, a 9800 GTX is slower than a GTS 250, which is the PhysX card I used to play Mafia 2 and it still delivers very playable framerates. And once you get to a GTX 275 and above, the performance gains start to level off, because the PhysX workload is completely handled with ease.

While true 9800 is very close to gts 250 and 9800+ even has the same clocks. It goes like this:
8800GTS512>9800>9800+>GTS250
I remember that my 8800GTS512 had at stock 650MHz core clock, how far did they go 738MHz?

 

[toyota]

wrong. the gt240 is barely helping the gtx480 there and would only slow down a card that was noticeably faster such as gtx680. everyone that understands physx knows this. AGAIN that is why nvidia does not make a "physx card". your needs for a physx card will depend on your main gpu being used.

 

[Carfax83]

wrong. the gt240 is barely helping the gtx480 there and would only slow down a card that was noticeably faster such as gtx680.

Oh really, so isn't a GTX 480 "noticeably faster" than a GT 240? So why isn't the GT 240 slowing down the GTX 480?

everyone that understands physx knows this. AGAIN that is why nvidia does not make a "physx card". your needs for a physx card will depend on your main gpu being used.

Throughout this entire discussion you've shown that you don't understand how PhysX works at all. Even the graph you posted completely destroyed your own argument.

The PhysX workload is set at the SOFTWARE level and has no correlation with the speed of the rendering GPU unless you're going to use the rendering GPU for PhysX as well.

A dedicated PhysX card runs PhysX only, and as long as it can handle the workload, then that's all that matters.

 

[Carfax83]

Toyota what you're saying is true, that a faster main card needs a faster PsyX card

Wrong! If this is true, then why does the GT 240 (only has 96 shaders btw) boost the performance of the much faster GTX 480 in Mafia 2? :sneaky:

 

[toyota]

Oh really, so isn't a GTX 480 "noticeably faster" than a GT 240? So why isn't the GT 240 slowing down the GTX 480?



Throughout this entire discussion you've shown that you don't understand how PhysX works at all. Even the graph you posted completely destroyed your own argument.

The PhysX workload is set at the SOFTWARE level and has no correlation with the speed of the rendering GPU unless you're going to use the rendering GPU for PhysX as well.

A dedicated PhysX card runs PhysX only, and as long as it can handle the workload, then that's all that matters.

wow you still have comprehension problems. of course the physx card can be slower than the gpu being used. AGAIN though the faster the main gpu the than faster the physx card has to be. step that gtx480 being used for a main card up to a gtx680 and it can handle graphics and physx much better than the gtx480 thus meaning there would be no reason to use a card like that gt240 that was barely helping the gtx480. if you try to offload the physx onto the gt240 is will be no faster and probably slower than just letting the gtx680 do BOTH. at this point you are just too ignorant on the subject and cant get through your head why the level of card being used matters.

Wrong! If this is true, then why does the GT 240 (only has 96 shaders btw) boost the performance of the much faster GTX 480 in Mafia 2? :sneaky:

lol you just dont get it at all. I am done here.

 

[Carfax83]

wow you still have comprehension problems. of course the physx card can be slower than the gpu being used. AGAIN though the faster the main gpu the than faster the physx card has to be. step that gtx480 being used for a main card up to a gtx680 and it can handle graphics and physx much better than the gtx480 thus meaning there would be no reason to use a card like that gt240 that was barely helping the gtx480.

You're the one that has comprehension problems. Lets use your example.

Sure, a GTX 680 will run Mafia 2 with PhysX turned on @ 1080p at a much faster frame rate than if it were paired with a GT 240 for PhysX.

HOWEVER, run Mafia 2 on that GTX 680 at 8060x1600 with NVidia surround, and suddenly your GTX 680 is now completely maxed out and can no longer run PhysX.

Now put that lowly GT 240 back in the system to offload PhysX and watch your frame increase..

As I've said many times, using a dedicated PhysX card only makes sense if you play at GPU limited settings..

I am done here.

Me too.

 

[UNhooked]

Moral of the story???

IMHO a dedicated Physx card will always run better no matter how powerful your main card is. This was my conclusion based on folks who were running SLI GTX 680 and still bogging down due to Physx. This was in BL2. They ended up buying a dedicated GTX 650 and it all was good. I believe user Dookey was the one who solved it for myself and Makaveli.

Update: Found that thread

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2275563&highlight=dedicated+physx

 

[UNhooked]

Some interesting Physx Links

http://1pcent.com/?p=169

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1039235336

 

[Carfax83]

Moral of the story???

IMHO a dedicated Physx card will always run better no matter how powerful your main card is. This was my conclusion based on folks who were running SLI GTX 680 and still bogging down due to Physx. This was in BL2. They ended up buying a dedicated GTX 650 and it all was good. I believe user Dookey was the one who solved it for myself and Makaveli.

Update: Found that thread

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2275563&highlight=dedicated+physx

Thank you! :thumbsup: A dedicated PhysX card will always be better, providing it can handle the PhysX workload..

Sheesh, there are so many misconceptions about PhysX being slung about the internet..

 

[toyota]

Thank you! :thumbsup: A dedicated PhysX card will always be better, providing it can handle the PhysX workload..

Sheesh, there are so many misconceptions about PhysX being slung about the internet..

and you are a clear example of that. and a plain gtx650 is a much faster card than a gt240 when it comes to physx. a gtx650 ti blows a gtx285 or gtx460 away when it comes to handling physx. 8600gt used to be fine when we had gtx260 and below. a gt240 can barely help out a gtx480 and it would be slower at physx than letting a gtx680 do both graphics and physx.

 

[Carfax83]

and a gtx650 is a much faster card than a gt240 when it comes to physx. 8600gt used to be fine when we had gtx260 and below.

A GTX 650 is a much faster card than a GT 240 of course, but if you're playing a game with non intensive PhysX effects like Alice the Madness Returns, it's possible that a GT 240 would provide similar performance as a GTX 650.

a gt240 can barely help out a gtx480 and it would be slower at physx than letting a gtx680 do both

In Mafia 2 at 1080p it would be slower than a single GTX 680. At 8060x1600 though, the GT 240 will increase performance rather than degrade it.

 

[Makaveli]

lol that was alot of back and forth to just state when your GPU sub system is maxed out a Dedicated card will run PhysX better than you trying to push physX onto the already maxed gpu.

Regardless of how powerful the main card if its fully loaded.

The other points about trying not to use a card that it to old to keep up with your main gpu is also valid but depends on the setup and the game.

For games that are light in the physx effects an older card won't be an issue for games that are heavy with the effects the amount of cuda cores on the dedicated card will matter.

 

[BUnit1701]

and you are a clear example of that. and a plain gtx650 is a much faster card than a gt240 when it comes to physx. a gtx650 ti blows a gtx285 or gtx460 away when it comes to handling physx. 8600gt used to be fine when we had gtx260 and below. a gt240 can barely help out a gtx480 and it would be slower at physx than letting a gtx680 do both graphics and physx.

Your idea isn't wrong, but your understanding of how it 'works' is flawed. The faster your dedicated PhysX card is, the better any given PhysX enabled game will run, irregardless of the primary rendering GPU. Take SLi Titan + GTS250 for Physx, say it gets X fps. When you replace the GTS250 with say a GTX650, your fps will improve. However, if the rendering GPU to start with was say a GTX670, and you proceed to upgrade your PhysX card, you will likely still see an FPS increase.

 

[Lepton87]

Wrong! If this is true, then why does the GT 240 (only has 96 shaders btw) boost the performance of the much faster GTX 480 in Mafia 2? :sneaky:

Would it boost the performance of my Titan as well?

Do you need 2x more PsyX performance from your PsyX card at 120 fps than you do at 60fps?
That's the crux of the matter. If a game rendered with PsyX at 120fps or 200fps needs the same amount of psyX performance regardless of fps then what you're saying holds some merit. Otherwise it does not.

 

[wand3r3r]

Thank you! :thumbsup: A dedicated PhysX card will always be better, providing it can handle the PhysX workload..

Sheesh, there are so many misconceptions about PhysX being slung about the internet..

A dedicated PhysX card will be better, IF it can handle the PhysX workload..

I saw some benchmarks somewhere last summer and I can't figure out where, but they had tested some old school cards (like 8800 gt or something around that age) as the physx card. There were cases of negative scaling, the physx card did indeed slow down the fps vs. running it in the same card as the game in a newer card.

A pro site should take a look at it.

Anyways it probably does help in games where the physx load is small, but once it gets bigger it can be detrimental according to what I saw. For this reason I hesitate to recommend throwing any old card in as the physx card.

 

[Carfax83]

Would it boost the performance of my Titan as well?

Under specific circumstances it could. Say your Titan was completely maxed out and had no resources to spare, and the GT240 was powerful enough to run the PhysX workload decently, then yeah, it would increase performance.

However, the chances are that it would slow down your games because the GT240 isn't powerful enough for contemporary PhysX games. Damn thing only has 96 cores.

Do you need 2x more PsyX performance from your PsyX card at 120 fps than you do at 60fps?

No, because the PhysX card doesn't concern itself with rendering whatsoever. It only does physics calculations. Enabling PhysX does impact frame rate however because more objects need to be rendered by the main GPU. Plus if it's not powerful enough to run the physics, then your frame rate will suffer as well.

That's the crux of the matter. If a game rendered with PsyX at 120fps or 200fps needs the same amount of psyX performance regardless of fps then what you're saying holds some merit. Otherwise it does not.

The PhysX performance is primarily determined by the amount of cores your PhysX card has, and the level of PhysX (low, medium or high).

Frame rate has no impact on it whatsoever.

 

[Lepton87]

The PhysX performance is primarily determined by the amount of cores your PhysX card has, and the level of PhysX (low, medium or high).

Frame rate has no impact on it whatsoever.

Good to know, I wasn't sure about that.

 

[SirPauly]

I doubt that Witcher 3 will have Physx since the first two games did not.

The Witcher 3 will support GPU PhysX, now officially

http://physxinfo.com/news/11558/the-witcher-3-will-support-gpu-physx-now-officially/

 

[Golgatha]

I recently sent back a GTX 570 for RMA and will hopefully get the same or equivalent replacement. I assume this level of card would be a good pair for my Titan? I'd like to try it out on the most recent Batman game and Alice to start with.